Look for the Best in Others To Help Them Develop Their Best
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"Colleen Russell" colle...@ix.netcom.com
Some spiritual paths stress the subject above and members reflect this teaching. Based on many of the posts we view by eckists here, they seem to be reflecting a teaching which finds fault and blames the individual should he/she differ from what eckankar states is "the truth."
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Colleen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/execkankar
"Michael Basso" mb1...@ix.netcom.com
It really is great to really look for the best in others, even when they disagree with something you say or write or have another view.
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Geoff tdj...@hotmail.com
Not me.
Ok then, Geoff
Anne rossanda...@earthlink.net
Or me. ***umptions, blanket statements and no questions of those you speak presume to speak for.
Huuuuuu, Anne
soulwo ...@aol.com (SoulWords)
Colleen- Some spiritual paths stress the subject above and members reflect this Not me, either, Colleen.
Eckankar is a doorway, a roadmap- it cannot state "the truth", but can only point to a place in which the individual will know for herself what "the truth" may be.
Teachings are not human and do not find fault. People's interpretations of teachings may lead individuals to find fault.
Christianity, for example, is made up of some magnificent souls who walk the talk and live the Christ-conscoiusness, as well as other more spiritually adolescent folk who need to draw sharp, painful distinctions between those who love Jesus as the only Son of God and the heathen rest of us.
Sincerely, David
rsm ...@aloha.net (Rich)
It seems to me that you have it backwards. I have always known that Eckankar teaches that everyone is ultimately responsible for everything that comes into their sphere of experience. No blame whatsoever. Simple cause and effect in action. It is those that do not understand and accept this, that _perceive_ this as being blame.
How many of you apostates believe that it is *you* that is culpable for the way in which you interpreted the teachings of Eckankar?
Heeelloooooooo... anybody? <G>
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o | ~/| _/ |\ / | \ -/ | \ _ /____|___\_ (___________/ Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tomleafea ...@aol.com (Tom Leafeater)
Rich Wrote: So, Rich...
If you bought an airline ticket which was advertised to take you to your homeland in some far off country, say Argentina, and you later found out the ticket was counterfeit and therefore invalid, should you admit to your culpability in buying it? Would you seek to be compensated from the one who defrauded you? If you are entirely culpable, then should the defrauder be left unchallenged or simply go unreported? Please explain further your philosophy of "culpability." By the way, Rich, you should look up the definition of culpable.
"Culpa" means "at fault" or "to have the blame of" in Spanish. You have inadvertently used a word that has the meaning of blame, or being at fault, even as you claim there is no blame intended.
Think about it...
Whoa... talk about guilt trips!
Main Entry: cul?·pa?·ble Pronunciation: 'k&l-p&-b&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English coupable, from Middle French, from Latin culpabilis, from culpare to blame, from culpa guilt Date: 14th century 1 : archaic : GUILTY, CRIMINAL 2 : meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful <culpable negligence> synonym see BLAMEWORTHY
- cul?·pa?·bil?·i?·ty /"k&l-p&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- cul?·pa?·ble?·ness /'k&l-p&-b&l-n&s/ noun
- cul?·pa?·bly /-blE/ adverb
-Leafeater
"Michael Basso" mb1...@ix.netcom.com
It is interesting that the supressive person typically speaks in general terms; often lumping whole groups of people into categories.This person belongs to either pro or con factions. A common manifistation of this type of activity is that they ofen project things which they have done in the past onto others in the present & then crusade against what they did themselves as if that often exaggerated position somehow absolves them in their minds from their own past.
"Michael" harmon...@bigpond.com
Tom tom... Maybe one day you will manage to get your logic synapses in accord with your pixels... Especially when applied to bad allegorical statements.
Argentina? Counterfiet ticket? Weeeelll... maybe you need to recast your opinion and make it a little more water tight so that we can understand what you are saying...
But then again... don't strain yourself...
Mea Culpa, btw, comes from Church Latin... Means "My Fault" Love Michael ...
"Michael" harmon...@bigpond.com
Especially when the eye of the beholder appears to be the one you see when she bends over ...
<G> Love Michael
Geoff tdj...@hotmail.com
Sorry to butt in on what I think is a very interesting conversation.
I agree with you that one can be wronged by another. But, surely you would agree there are some "wrongs" that are only perceptions of the individual, such as frivilous lawsuits where the "victims" hope is to convince a jury/judge of anothers culpability in order to get a free lunch.
Just like with a recent discussion with Orez on different categories of abuse, there were the three categories that were real abuse (in an objective sense of the term) and a fourth that only exists in the perceptions of the abused.
Within this context, it is a excellent thing to contemplate the part one plays in a situation having a bad outcome, no matter if you are the perptrator or the victim.
For example, when I was shot, I wondered for a while what I could have done different to have prevented the robbery. I came to the conclusion that I did everything right. Widening the circle a bit, I came to the conclusion that working at fast food restaurants wasn't such a good career for me after all (I had just become a manager). That was as much responsibility as I needed to take about the situation.
On the other extreme, when we get to these "category four" (self perceived wrongs), honest contemplation has the possibility of making you realize that you were not wronged at all, and in fact maybe were "righted".
For example, after I got out of the hospital, I was living at home and ended up wallowing in self pity. My life degenerated into soap operas and opening the door with a baseball bat. My Mom let me wallow until the wound had healed completely, and then told me to get up off my butt and go get a job. She said: "You lived. You weren't maimed or disabled. Count your lucky stars and get on with your life." I was devastated. Count my lucky stars?!?! How can getting shot in the head be lucky? With real anger in my heart at the "abuse" my own mother heaped on me, I went and got that job and got on with my life. Within a few months, I realized that she had done me the biggest favor in my life, after bringing me into this world. Thanks Mom!
So, back to ECKANKAR. Some want to blame the ECK Masters for telling folks that each of us is Soul, capable of making our own way back to God instead of wallowing in these lower worlds, so get up off your butt and start making your own way.
Sorry, but I can't buy it. I will always be grateful to the spiritual masters of every path that helped me to take the next step, especially Mom, Paul, Darwin and Harold.
Ok then, Geoff
cher gruendem...@worldnet.att.net
One problem with your theory here leafygreen.... no one promised to carry you to where the promises exist. It was made most clear that the trip was up to you to make. If you didn't get far this time around, there is always eternity.
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"Soul IS; little self modifies accordingly. " "We cease to cherish opinions, but no one said 'live without values to do it.' We have to stand for something."
"HU 4 God" hu4...@nospam.com
Eckankar states the "truth" is within each Soul, individual. When you come here and say someone's "truth" is a lie, then you have a fight on your hands. No one here has said that your "truth", or Joe's, or Lurk's, or Sharon's, is a lie. The disagreements come when you attack the beliefs of individuals. Check your word usage, how you phrase your "opinions" and "experiences" when conversing with Eckists. Then check how you respond to ex-members. There is a great difference.
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In Spirit, Jackie @->->--
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joe_m ...@hotmail.com (Joe)
Yes, there is ECKANKAR, and there are all other religions which are merely offshoots of ECKANKAR.
A common manifistation of this type Yes. Paulji is on record for: 1) Railing against Gurus who sell spirituality, while charging for discourses and living off his followers.
2) Railing against Gurus who use fear to control their followers, while stating that those who leave ECKANKAR will crumble materially and spiritually.
3) Railing against those who betray their Gurus, while betraying his own Gurus.
cher gruendem...@worldnet.att.net
A true sign of someone obsessed is how they can rationalize their belief into any given conversation and not see what is happening to themself.
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"Soul IS; little self modifies accordingly. " "We cease to cherish opinions, but no one said 'live without values to do it.' We have to stand for something."
tomleafea ...@aol.com (Tom Leafeater)
Michael snorted while pawing at the ground with his forelegs before making his halfhearted charge: It is evident from your pattern of responses here on a.r.e. that you frequently resort to impugning the intelligence and logic of others. That is, you make it rather personal. Is this simply your way of saying no in Australia, or does it reveal a higher level of testoterone in your corner of the world, or maybe you're just a condescending kind of guy?
Okay, so you disagree with me...I get that.
-Leafeater
cher gruendem...@worldnet.att.net
gee tom, it certainly does seem that michael's presense emasculates you in some way. Fascinating.
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"Soul IS; little self modifies accordingly. " "We cease to cherish opinions, but no one said 'live without values to do it.' We have to stand for something."
tomleafea ...@aol.com (Tom Leafeater)
Geoff Wrote: Well, thank you for agreeing with this point I was making, that one can be wronged by another. And of course, it goes without saying that it is a matter of experience, wisdom, and refined understanding that brings a person to make the judgement about what is a wrong to another.
Of course, on a macrocosmic level, there is the sense of there not being anything but exchange of energy of yin and yang, no right or wrong, or rather, seeing the enterplay of forces and no more, but on the microcosmic level, one is *always* faced with these issues, and in deed, they must be delt with by every living being on a personal level. I believe the wisdom gained by learning to read the braile is why we are hear. One cannot always absolve everything simply by referring to pop spirituality. A greater refinement is needed than merely using the old "reflect it back" mentality.
All too often one can hear another who becomes merely versed in spiritual topics declare to another, "I didn't harm you, for it was your karma to experience what you did. It is all a matter of viewpoint. The money you loaned me was paying me back for a debt you incurred in another life. This is the reason I haven't repaid you! You have chosen this experience, and have created this illusion of wrongdoing on my part." With such logic, one could reverse anything upon another, claiming the other created his/her circumstances by choice. Of course, it can be turned around over and over again endlessly. For example: 1) Colleen makes a claim about Eckankar being a sham religion.
Reversal of blame: Colleen created her own experience.
2) Eckankar members decry the heavy criticism of former followers, many of whom are long time former "High Initiates," like myself.
Reversal: Eckankar created its own experience.
I do hope you and others understand this basic point. But if you don't, oh well, you have only created this experience for yourselves!
-Leafeater
Geoff tdj...@hotmail.com
I agree. I will call someone who tries to pull this crap every single time.
You mean from former followers I think. And with you I would agree.
That is why I like to try and figure out what is at the heart of the criticism without all the sometimes inflammatory stuff... ECKANKAR, like anything that exists in the lower worlds can use some continuous improvements.
I believe I do. And I hope you understand my basic point that I would rather improve what we have got rather than start all over again.
Thanks.
Ok then, Geoff
"Michael Basso" mb1...@ix.netcom.com
It is often useful to have a comparison or sorts when judging any writer according to benchmakrs in the same cl***.
For example, these are some comments made by other writers mentioned in Letters to Gail.
o The initiate who thus sins [ ie tells a hidden secret] will be struck dumb and sometimes dead prior to thus failing.
o Another wroter writes that the wife must commit suicide by throwing herself upon her dead husbands funeral pyre.
The same writer states in the form of commandments: Drink the Charamrit [feet wash water - of the guru]. I say this for thy own good.
My favorite one - same dude, also considered to be god incarnate as were many folks throughout history: He should recieve the spittle [of the guru] in a spittoon and drink it all.
It is up to the interested reader to find out which books these comments came from themselves. Note that the authors also wrote many wonderful p***ages in the same books and others. Gotta use discretion when reading any of these type of books and more so when in judgine an author when you have no clue where an author may have gotten such ideas.
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"Michael Basso" mb1...@ix.netcom.com
Whether or not any folks had some special qualities, all or these folks were human beings & wrote things that may seem bizare to say the least and have tainted their writings with cultural and personal idiosyncracies.
It might be best for some readers to keep this in mind so as not to be so surprised or dissapointed to know that their superhero had some flaws or their writing was misconstrued ... !
"Colleen Russell" colle...@ix.netcom.com
Excuse me for the generalized comment. That wasn't fair.
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Colleen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/execkankar ...
"Colleen Russell" colle...@ix.netcom.com
You and I agree in some ways, DAvid...one, that eckankar is a doorway. I haven't found that as a roadmap it works well, sort of like Yahoo maps, perhaps....A map maker really should travel from point A to B to make a valid map...putting it altogether from computers or other's calculations doesn't work all the time.)
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Colleen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/execkankar ...
Rich *rsmi...@aloha.net
> So Leaf, by the fact that you didn't answer my question, I see that like apparently all detractors, you also do not accept responsibility for your own perceptions. A poll would be interesting but not really necessary. Clearly most Eckists see that as Soul they are cause, while most apostates believe that they are effect, and hold little responsibility for the results of their thoughts, feelings and actions in conveniently selected areas of their experience.
Of course. As Soul I chose that experience.
Of course.
No. You confuse Soul with the human laws. My action would abide by both in this scenario. As Soul I am completely responsible for my experience. As a human I work within the laws of the land that I have placed this human form.
Given the definition, I don't have a philosophy of "culpability." Here is my experience -> Soul creates Its reality .
OK. My mistake. I thought it meant the cause of, or responsible.
If you feel guilty, that is *your* responsibility. ;-)
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o | ~/| _/ |\ / | \ -/ | \ _ /____|___\_ (___________/ Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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