SS behavioral problems (age 6)
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"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
If you had a SS that has been a behavioral problem since he could walk (hyperactive, defiant, sometimes violent), what would you do: By sometimes violent, I mean this: In kindergarten (last year), he was suspended twice - once for choking a cl***mate.
Last summer, he punched my 4yo in the nose (this is the summer after his kindergarten), giving her a bloody nose. When my 8yo SD tried to console my 4yo, my SS punched his sister (my SD) in the back and knocked her to the ground. He then climbed ON TOP of her and punched her over and over again.
Later that week, he hit his sister in the cheek and spit on her.
This past Christmas, SS threw a piece of weight bench equipment at his sister (my SD). It missed her and hit my nephew/godson in the head, giving him a large gash right above his forehead where his hairline starts. It bled from one side of the house to another.
School History: SS preschool WOULD NOT promote him into their kindergarten because of his behavior. The kindergarten he went to suspended him twice (though during this year, he was GREAT for my DH and I). He is in 1st grade now and doing GREAT in school but NOT here. It isn't consistent. ADHD testing was inconsistent because BM's answers didn't jive with the schools or ours. BM won't agree there is anything wrong with SS so she won't agree to counseling.
SS has been seen in public by us and other people that shows his behavior is not good with his BM either. During a pick up of the kids about a year or so ago, we saw SS punch his mother in the head (she laughed and tweaked his cheek...atta boy...geez!). We've seen him in public acting up as have others.
I'm worried that he is going to hurt one of my kids (ages now are 5, 2, and ten months). He seems to have anger management problems...his short-temper gets him in trouble all the time. My DH and I don't know what to do since we can't get him into counseling. His behavior isn't consistent...one year he is a brat at school and good for us and the next year he is a brat for us and good at school.
These are just the recent problems. He's kicked our daughter when she was an infant in the head, kicked his sister in the head and stomach, etc. etc.
etc.
Any ideas?
"Anne Robotti" arobo...@speakeasy.net
Nicole, I really really wish I had an idea. Would the court order counseling?
I really just wanted to say I feel for you. It's horrible to be scared for your kids.
Anne "Nicole M. Floyd" <nfl...@fulton-net.com> wrote in message ...
"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
I'm not sure. Because he is doing good in school this year and BM can say she doesn't have any problems with him (when she does), then I don't know.
We've talked to Children's Protective Services and Human Services and both recommended counseling. His former pediatrician recommended counseling (BM has changed pediatricians since then). We've let his current pediatrician know what is going on. I'm thinking we might take him to OUR pediatrician and have her examine/talk with him. We get enough recommendations, then BM would get over-ruled I would think (hope). Until then, though...I have to protect my kids. If SS isn't allowed to come here anymore because of his behavior, she'd probably enjoy that. .
...
kit ...@whitepine.com (Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe)
On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:29:01 -0500, "Nicole M. Floyd" <snipped of things that sound familiar> Your SS needs some serious help. Thankfully, my husband has sole custody of his children, so when we were going through similar problems, he and I were able to deal with it. How do you deal with these things when he is with you?
Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can't tell him much. - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it.
-- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
We've tried the time outs when he was younger and talking to him. Now that he is a little older, he writes sentences, loses privileges (like the playstation), sent to his room for periods of time, complete block outs (I take EVERYTHING out of his room that is fun and he just sits there for a certain amount of time). After he punched my four year old last summer, I had a HUGE talk with him about it (he said he doesn't know why he does it and that his brain tells him to). He told me that he does act like this at his mother's house (which my SD confirmed) and that he doesn't get in trouble there. He was grounded for days from his video games, couldn't go outside. We also talk with him about his behavior and do "damage control" with him when his mother makes excuses for his behavior and says he didn't do anything wrong. He's punched her a couple times and put a hold in her wall during a fit...how is that NOT wrong? When he choked his cl***mate, we had him, when he was here the following weekend, write sentences, make a "sorry" card, help me with chores, playstation privileges revoked -
basically grounded from anything fun.
When he put the gash in my nephew's head, that was on Christmas Eve. He was grounded for that day and Christmas Day by my DH (he could open his presents but he couldn't play with them at all). BM thought we "overreacted" and that the punishment was inappropriate (too harsh) because she didn't think he had done anything wrong (it was an accident per her...sorry, anytime you throw something at another person to hit them which is what SS admitted he was doing - that isn't accidental). Funny, I don't think his punishment was LONG ENOUGH for what he did.
We're running out of options for correction that work for him because what we've used so far has not worked for any length of time. My DH doesn't spank his kids, but there are times when I think this spoiled little boy needs his DH to spank him.
My in-laws bought a Playstation 2 for our family for Christmas. When my SS opened it, he went into my office, stuck his head in the corner and cried because "it wasn't enough". He is VERY spoiled...gets new toys from his BM all the time, eats out all the time, movies all the time, etc. I guess a $300 gift wasn't good enough for him.
"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote in message ...
Melissa Torresan mel...@NOSPAMhotpop.com
I think it is going to be really hard for you to do much without either the cooperation of BM, or full custody. It is clear this child has some serious problems that need to be dealt with in a consistent way.
I've got a friend who has a child that sounds similar to your SS. Said friend is in complete denial about it, even though the child is constantly violent and even the kindergarten told her they would not take him on field trips unless she went to (and I quote) "control her child".
Is it possible that this is where your BM is at? Can she just not accept that her child has a problem? I think if you can work out why she refuses to believe there is a problem, you might have a chance at convincing her there is one.
My friend can't accept that her child has a problem because it doesn't fit in with her husband, house, 2.4 kids and two car dream of perfect living. Well, neither does the fact that her husband is an alcoholic and pretty violent himself, but she refuses to accept that, too.
If it were me, and depending on your custody schedule, I'd get your DH to organise counselling for him on your time. I know this can be hard if it is only just weekends, but some child psychs will help out by having a session on Saturdays.
If the reason BM is refusing to believe there is a problem is because *you* (your DH, or you and your DH) are the ones saying there is a problem, then a meeting with the psych, BM and DH could help her see that there is a problem. Of course, it also might not work and she might feel ganged up on.
You are right, though - your first concern has to be your children.
Mel
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I'm so sick of people's expectations Leaves me tired all the time If your home's full of worthless aggravation Then don't bring it to mine
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"Singing for the lonely" RW http://www.robbiewilliams-online.com
gplen ...@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian)
My SD was saying that stuff as she was punching out kids in kindergarten and getting suspended. She is now seeing a psychologist once a week, a neuropsychiatrist once a month, she is utilizing special services in school and is on three medications for her various problems diagnosed with a brain scan.
If he has ODD (which sounds possible), a couple of contributors are maternal leniency and big differences in rules between two households (for a child in a split situation).
We are living this, only are a year farther along with you. Get this child to see a specialist now.
Geri "There are those that go down to the sea in ships and make their living on the oceans of the world. These men see the works of the Lord and his wonders in the deep." Psalm 107:22-23
"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
I think there are a few possible reasons why she won't see there is a problem: 1) Because it would reflect on her and her hyper-parenting/spoiling style.
She is (thinks) perfect so she couldn't be raising a son that is anything but. It is her with the kids and the rest of the world revolves around that little circle or else they don't warrant consideration.
2) Because SS behavior is similar to his BM's so she really does see it as normal (defiant, hostile is OK with her). When my DH lived with her, she was hostile/bossy/unfriendly...he warned me about her before we got serious - as did their mutual friends...they were right. It is HER way or NO way. If we say one thing, 99.9% of the time she'll say the opposite.
In order to get my SD in counseling a few years ago, her pediatrician had to force her to do it (she ignored my husband's request to get SD into counseling for a year and had all kinds of physical tests on her instead because it couldn't possibly be psychological because then it would reflect back on HER)...So, a four year old had stool checks, enemas, diet restrictions, all dairy cut out, etc. until the pediatrician said NO MORE.
Counseling diagnosis was that BM was too dependent on the kids and she wanted to counsel BM with my SD...BM wouldn't do it and cut off ALL counseling sessions for my SD.
...
<nfl...@fulton-net.com>
"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
Boy, you hit the nail on the head with maternal leniency and different rules at each household. She is a very lenient mother (spoils him rotten) and doesn't agree with our rules (she thinks we are too harsh because we want him corrected when he does something wrong). She isn't teaching him how to behave, she makes excuses for his behavior...that's easier I guess.
I'm going to do some research on ODD. When he said that his brain was telling him to, I kept thinking schizophrenic (hearing voices) but he might just be making excuses for himself (like his mother does). My uncle (married to my mother's twin) is schizophrenic and so is their son. If my uncle stops his meds, watch out...I wouldn't go near him.
And I thought my SS was the only child to get suspended from kindergarten.
I'd never heard of anybody being suspended from K until my SS.
His behavior isn't consistently bad though. He is doing great in school this year as opposed to last year but outside of school...that's a different story.
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen...@aol.commotion> wrote in message ...
kit ...@whitepine.com (Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe)
*top-posting only* Nicole, I'm trying to think of exactly *what* the trick has been for us. We were also stuck in that trap of reacting. It didn't work very well for us, either. There were a *lot* of phone calls where I was telling one or another of the children, "I don't care what your brother/sister did, you are *not* to put your hands on his/her throat... EVER," and "I don't care what s/he did, you are *NOT* to pick up a knife. I'm *glad* s/he got a chair and kept it between you while you were doing that. You have no right to be angry with him/her for keeping him/herself safe." The two things that turned the tide for us, I think, are that we started spending more time with OS when he *wasn't* angry about something (a good beginning), and then I started homeschooling. The homeschooling has helped because I'm home all day and able to work with OS immediately when he's having problems.
What we found with OS is that a lot of his anger management problems stem from abandonment issues. First we had to help him begin learning more appropriate ways of venting his anger - if he needs to hit something, he can go to his room and hit a pillow or go get a hammer and pound nails into a board. Then we moved on to more appropriate ways of expressing his anger. Now we're working on the abandonment issues.
It's slow work, but it's worth every bit of it.
Good luck in getting BM to work with you on this. Her denial may be your toughest battle.
Kitten On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:46:04 -0500, "Nicole M. Floyd" Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can't tell him much. - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it.
-- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
gplen ...@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian)
My SD was five/six when she started with "the bad part of my brain tells me to do ...".
She was diagnosed with five disorders. The medications are helping *a lot*.
Our BM vascillates between varying degrees of denial (or ignorance) and thinking the medications are going to do all the work of making SD into a normal kid (not gonna happen).
My SD was in a private school. She was suspended from kindergarten three times before the school gave us the choice of voluntarily removing her or they would expel her. She has been suspended twice in first grade (during her mom's custody time, of course).
We have the opposite problem. SD is pretty good here (though she has her moments), but we have a very structured household and consequnces for actions and she seems to respond better to this than all of the pity-parties, babying and "oh honeying" she gets at her mom's house.
Geri "There are those that go down to the sea in ships and make their living on the oceans of the world. These men see the works of the Lord and his wonders in the deep." Psalm 107:22-23
kit ...@whitepine.com (Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe)
On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:33:43 -0500, "Nicole M. Floyd" <snipped> I've a good friend (the one who prodded me to read this group) whose son was thought to be possibly schizophrenic. Turns out he was severely depressed. I'd never realized before that that depression can get so bad that it can cause one to hear voices.
Your husband really needs to get help for your SS.
Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can't tell him much. - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it.
-- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"ms_cal" ms_c...@hotmail.com
Nicole, if it gives you any hope at all: I was expelled from kindergarten...
I was 'dancing' on the teachers desk, she told me to get off... I wouldn't, 'accidentally' kicked her, and knocked her two front teeth out. And it was decided that maybe I should wait a year. I don't recall much about that time, but I do remember that is happened two days before the Halloween party. My mom seemed more pissed that they didn't wait till after the party to kick me out, than my actually being kicked out.
But it does sound as if your SS needs some serious intervention. I wish I had more to offer, but it seems you know what you need for him, you just now need to get his mother on the same page. I think she finds denying a problem exists is so much easier than doing the work necessary to really help him. Good luck.
Cal~
"Mika" tajmaha...@hotmail.com
Nicole, having been in similar situations, my advice to you would be: Tell DH to get the child into some kind of therapy/treatment IMMEDIATELY.
Don't wait to get BM's permission. He is the bio parent just the same as she is. He has equal right to get help for his child. Be PRO-ACTIVE. If BM refuses to participate that is her problem. But don't let that deter you and DH. Someone has to look out for the child and obviously she isn't going to.
At the same time, file for full custody, citing the violent behavior and BM's refusal to seek treatment. Above all else, DOCUMENT everything.
Document everything that has happened in the past.
Make a treatment plan that you and DH want to implement for the child's benefit. This should include: 1. Daily Routine 2. Consequences for bad behaviors 3. How each family member will be affected/involved 4. Therapy - individual and family 5. Goals for the future - long and short term goals 6. The role BM will have in the treatment if and when she is ready and willing If something isn't done about this behavior soon, it will only escalate. I would really hate to see you, or anyone, go through what we have been through. It isn't pretty. It's possible your SS is suffering from major depression, ODD, Bi-Polar disorder or an array of other things. Then again, it could be that he is simply a victim of "spare the rod, spoil the child." Regardless, don't wait on BM to decide something is wrong or to agree to get help. You have already recognized the signs of trouble, you and DH need to take matters into your own hands before it's too late.
Good luck and my prayers are with you. Cause I've BTDT.
Mika
"Mika" tajmaha...@hotmail.com
Nicole, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about what BM thinks of your discipline. How you and DH choose to punish or discipline when the kids are with you is your choice. Not hers. She isn't giving the kid any structure and look what's happening. As long as you are consistent, don't worry about what she thinks is fair or unfair. He needs to learn there are consequences for his bad choices. I'm sure that DH has no say in what goes on in her house so why should she have any say in what goes on in yours?! If she were willing to work with you and DH it would be different. JMO.
Who knows, a spanking just might get get the kids attention.
Mika
vjr ...@xcski.com (Vicki Robinson)
<> We're running out of options for correction that work for him because what <> we've used so far has not worked for any length of time. My DH doesn't <> spank his kids, but there are times when I think this spoiled little boy <> needs his DH to spank him.
< <Who knows, a spanking just might get get the kids attention.
< I'm sure it would. It would justify his violence to others. After all, if it's ok to use hitting to get *his* attention, then it must be ok to use hitting to get a sibling's attention.
You can say that it's different for the next 10 years, but he'll still use it for justification.
Vicki
--
Family and Divorce Mediation Resources http://xcski.com/~mediator/
kit ...@whitepine.com (Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe)
Yep.
Part of getting past the difficulties OS was/is having has been that Chewy and I have to change *OUR* approaches to things.
Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can't tell him much. - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it.
-- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"ms_cal" ms_c...@hotmail.com
Agreed. With a child who is already violent I don't think spanking him will solve problems, just make more. He needs intervention by professionals IMO, if this is ever going to change.
Cal~
"Anne Robotti" arobo...@speakeasy.net
Yes, in the most negative way possible. You're not going to teach him to stop bullying other people by bullying him, you're not going to teach him to be kind to younger siblings by physically punishing him. All you're going to teach him is that if you're big enough to get away with hitting somebody then it's okay. When I met my SD she was getting spanked by everybody, several times a day. It made her more frustrated, more angry and more prone to violence.
And if the problem, as has been suggested, is that Nicole's SS has an untreated disorder, you can spank him all day and it would be completely unfair.
"Because you can" is a really bad reason to hit somebody, and if you're hitting a kid that's why you're doing it.
Anne
janelaw2 ...@aol.com (jane)
The things you said your SS has done aren't particularly unusual. Aggression is normal. Boys often lack social skills the first time they go to kindergarten. I mean, sure the kid has to learn how to deal with anger and feelings of aggression, but that's part of parenting. That's why you don't leave kids that age alone without adult supervision. Your DH has to work with him, watch what goes on, monitor his mood, help him see where he's getting worked up *before* he loses it. All the punishment in the world after the fact isn't going to help much.
jane
"Heather M." heath...@ipa.net
I'm sooooo glad you said this. A good friend of mine who is a psychologist told me that boys are (in number) grossly mis-diagnosed with things like ADD, ADHD, etc. From the looks of what the OP wrote, it all just looks like boy-behavior, but from what I understand, there are tell-tale things that only a professional can detect that would actually diagnose him with a disorder. So it could be either/or, and I wouldn't be diagnosing him myself. My pediatrician told me that girls are verbal, and boys are motor.
And if you think about it, it makes sense, because men wanna do, while women wanna talk about it. And I have a funny story about this thread anyway. My son is in Kindergarten, and during the first two months of school he got in two fights. The first one, an older kid was harr***ing him on the playground physically, and the second he was defending another cl***mate (disclaimer: fighting is wrong, I'm NOT making excuses here). When I asked him why he did these things he told me the EXACT same thing, "My brain just made me do it!". Now, this was all during August/September, and there have been no fights since then, and he makes excellent marks (being the bright kid that he is-big mommy brag there :P) and he is no worse/better than any other 5 year old at home. Now, after reading this thread, (he is home from school for Pres. Day, and is sitting here on the floor playing beside me) I asked him if he had been in any fights lately (even though I knew he hadn't).
"Nope." "Then your brain doesn't tell you to do those things anymore?" "OH! I just made that up <flip of his hand and big grin> ." They're smarter than you think.
Heather
"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
He was in day care and then preschool before Kindergarten. Kindergarten wasn't his first attempt at being in a group setting with other children, with teachers, etc. The preschool at my stepdaughter's private school wouldn't promote him into their kindergarten because of his behavior so he was enrolled at public school instead. I don't know of any other children (boys or girls) his age who act as he does and he's been like this since about two years old. It didn't start in kindergarten. It started several years before that. We've worked with him until we're blue in the face.
We've worked closely with his teachers. We've talked to his pediatricians.
We've tried working with his mother since he was two and she ignores us or makes excuses.
If you could see the look on his face when he gets mad, you might lose sleep over it...it can seem hateful and empty at the same time...his actions hurt and he knows that but he does it anyway and doesn't care that he does it unless he gets caught. Then he lies, lies, lies about it until he knows WE KNOW and then blames the fact that he punched somebody in the face, choked them, etc. on the other person. He seems empty of something inside (like a conscience would be a good place to start). He has that look everytime he'd get angry and caught like when he was caught "counting" knives at my sister's. (The counting knives incident happened after he got mad at his older sister and lunged at her...my sister caught him in mid-air as he went after her.) My other sister jokes that he is going to kill me in my sleep...I don't consider it a joke because it isn't something that I haven't thought of already.
...
gplen ...@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian)
We are dealing with a year older version of this. Get.Him.Treated.Now. Geri "There are those that go down to the sea in ships and make their living on the oceans of the world. These men see the works of the Lord and his wonders in the deep." Psalm 107:22-23
"Nicole M. Floyd" nfl...@fulton-net.com
I don't think he is ADD. He CAN control himself at times...it isn't consistent. My SS hasn't done these things to protect himself or another child. If that were the case, this would be entirely different and I wouldn't be worried about him or my own kids' safety. I know that kids are overdiagnosed or flipped pills because it is easiest on the teacher, mom, dad, etc. but I don't think this is the case here. When ADHD came up for my SS, I was AGAINST pills because I knew that wasn't what it was...he had a period of a year when he was with us where he was a GREAT little boy (all the while terrorizing the kindergarten kids and teacher and his mother).
After school let out, he went right back to his old aggressive behavior. I think a lot of has to do with after the choking incident, his mother had no choice but to stay on top of his behavior because the school was looking really closely at it/him/her (his teacher had a problem with how she allowed this child to act during conferences, field trips). When his mother and my husband and I were working together and giving it 100%, he did better.
After school let out, his mother stopped following thru with things and went back to making excuses...now the two homes are working separately and it isn't helping SS at all. BOTH homes need to work together and she isn't willing to do that unless she is put on the spot by the school (or a court).
...
gplen ...@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian)
Kids with ADD/ADHD can control themselves at times.
It is often overdiagnosed, and I used to think a lot if the very same things (and I am an RN). I used to think a lot of ADHD cases were really due to poor parenting, and probably some are. However, there are now diagnostic tools that can be used that can rule out ADD/ADHD or other disorders or diagnose them pretty effectively.
Geri "There are those that go down to the sea in ships and make their living on the oceans of the world. These men see the works of the Lord and his wonders in the deep." Psalm 107:22-23
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