Brain clues to attention disorder
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"John H." jo...@faraway.com.au
Another myth bites the dust, though the evidence of ADHD being a real condition has rarely been in dispute by those who read the research.
Hopefully this finding will further our understanding of this condition, which I have no hope of understanding.
John H.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3284629.stm Scientists have found differences in the brains of children with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder.
University of California Los Angeles researchers found some areas of the brains of the children were smaller, and but others had more grey matter.
.....
Matthew Kirkcaldie Matthew.Kirkcal...@removethis.newcastle.edu.au
London cabbies have different grey matter volumes in the hippocampus than matched controls. As far as I know, nobody has used this to argue that cabdriving is genetically controlled, or that being a taxi driver is a "real condition".
My point being, if a child behaves consistently differently, or is given neuroactive drugs for a long period, their experience of the world differs. That difference can show up in brain structure, without the need for a genetic or pathological basis. If you raise a kitten with one eye closed, the large scale structure of its visual cortex is radically different, despite the lack of a genetic difference or a pathogen.
This is one of the most common misconceptions about brain development -
and it's common because it's very subtle and perhaps counterintuitive. However, if we regard the brain as an organ whose primary function is to adapt its structure to the experience it receives, the issues become clearer.
I'll get off my hobbyhorse, this is a topic I frequently get into when lecturing!
Cheers, Matthew.
"John H." jo...@faraway.com.au
Actually I iterated the same point to some friends, that the changes seen may reflect under utilisation as a consequence of ADHD. Moreover, the changes noted in this article do not appear to take into account the hyperactivity element. I'm rather ignorant about ADHD but suspect the midbrain is the region to look at (caudate\putamen), Nacc, or VTA seem more probable.
Hobby horses are fun except when they kick you out of the saddle.
John H.
"Matthew Kirkcaldie" <Matthew.Kirkcal...@removethis.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message ...
Kalman Rubinson k...@nyu.edu
None of these are in the midbrain except the VTA.
Kal
"John H." jo...@faraway.com.au
In that case I'll go away now ...
John H.
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mats_tr ...@hotmail.com (mat)
I don't see how this actually moves the debate on - after all we already knew children labelled ADHD were different, this just confirms there is a difference *not* that there is a pathology. I think it is still debatable whether all children currently diagnosed with ADHD should be labelled as 'ill' or 'diseased'. I do not think the debate is whether the childrens' behaviour is variant but whether it is 'abnormal' or 'pathological'. The more you categorise people the narrower the definition of normal becomes.
softeng3 ...@netscape.net (soft-eng)
Excellent observation -- as a point of reference, all high performing athletes certainly have brains that have developed differently, and even behavioral differences could be easily observed and categorized by anyone so inclined.
"John H." jo...@faraway.com.au
<>...
Irrespective of any labelling genuine ADHD cases are outside the norm. The changes in brains occur very early in life. ADHD is ***ociated with higher rates of criminality, learning disorders, and psychopathology. These people are not being labelled for the purposes of exclusion from the norm or to create an industry, they are thus labelled because as a group they present problems far more frequently than "norms" and ways must be found to help a significant number of these people; though paradoxically some genuine ADHD cases seem to display inordinate intelligence and creativity. Certainly there has been far too much fast and loose diagnosis of ADHD but 50 years ago the same was true of schizophrenia, and 100 years ago Multiple Sclerosis, because of higher rates in women, was presumed to be hypochondria. The above research moves the debate on because it deepens our understanding of what is happening. PS: "Norm" is a conceptual convenience, it doesn't have to carry moral undertones.
John H.
beachboarde ...@yahoo.com (beth)
Hello, I am a student doing some research on ADHD, and attempting to give an unbiased view highlighting both sides of the "disorder." One side of the coin says this is a disease, and the other defines it as an excuse for human inadequacies. So are there any medical, or clinical professionals who can give me their opinion on this matter.
Thanks, Beth
Doktor DynaSoar target...@OMCL.mil
An absolute must-read when it comes to this argument is chapters 9 and 10 in Diane McGuinness's book "When Children Don't Learn". These two chapters, covering precisely this argument (and she is on the "against" side), earned her an invitation from the APA to write a "dissenting opinion" to the ADD entry in the DSM IV.
Also, I suggest contacting Eastern Virginia Medical School in Norfolk, VA. They did a series of epidemiological studies on school children in their area who were/weren't on ADD drugs, and who should/shouldn't be.
Some of their results were very scary.
In particular: They looked at children who were 1 or more years younger than the mean age for the grade they were in. In other words, they looked at kids who'd been advanced one or more grades at some point. They found that 67% of these kids -- ostensibly promoted due to capabilities, an opposite thing from having a learning disability --
were on ADD drugs.
The obvious conclusion is that there are parents out there who want so badly for their kids to be super-special, that the parents are dosing the kids with speed. And THAT my friends is child abuse.
Ian Ford news...@ford.dircon.co.uk
There is a huge literature on ADHD. A good start is " Driven to Distriction " by Hallowell & Ratey - two psychaitrists who themselves have ADHD. Note the difference betweem " disorder " and " disease " -
ADHD is not a disease that can be caught, but a neurological disorder one is born with. There is ample evidence of the biological nature of ADHD derived from brain scans, dso I am not sure how you can present a " balanced " article that gives credemnce to the excuse for inadequach theory ... a bit like a balnced article give equal credence to astronomical facts and the opinions of the Flat Earth Society.
Your problem will be wading through the millions of pages of information available on the web, in books and journals. A search on one of the specialist databases such as MEDLINE or PSYCHLIT will yield thousands of articles from respectable journals, starting with an article published by G F STILL in The Lancet in 1902. ADHD is over a century old, although under different names.
Ian N Ford
"kenneth p Collins" kpa...@earthlink.net
Quoting from the BBC article: " The ADHD children showed evidence of a reduction in the size two areas of the brain - one of each side - called the dorsal prefrontal cortices.
Similarly, there was evidence of a size reduction in the anterior temporal areas - also found on each side of the brain.
However, the scans also showed substantial increases in grey matter in large portions of the posterior temporal and inferior parietal cortices in children with ADHD." This's exciting because there's an obvious correlation to "internal frame of reference" [IFR] with respect to front-center attention [AoK, Ap3 & Ap5 [in the section that discusses curiosity]. The changes to neural structure outline above correlate to heightened "p***ive [sensory-dominent; "be acted upon"] phase" rather than acting "active [motor-dominant] phase". The structural discrepancies observed also correlate to the frontal-motor and posterior-sensory distributions in 'normal' brains.
And, clearly, the condition can be generated experientially - any experiential dynamics that 'bash' action will result in 'adhd'-type structural divergence from 'normal' nervous system structure.
That is, if every 'time' a Child 'gets his/her sea legs' with respect to doing something, the Child experiences TD E/I(up)-generating activation from other interactors [i.e. [typically] parents] the Child's nervous system's neural structure will =definitely= 'move toward' the structural 'divergence' that is discussed in the BBC article.
Please, please, please, folks, get it straight - everything that occurs within nervous systems is activation-dependent.
My gosh, John, man-oh-man! this fronto-posterior 'gradient' that is discussed in the BBC article is so awesomely-informative in light of the "internal frame of reference" stuff that's reified in NDT. Thank you so much for posting the reference.
It's 'neurosurgery' being performed by blindly-automated 'unlicensed surgeons' - right-there, plain-as-day-to-see, when one comprehends the IFR.
Cheers, ken [k. p. collins]
"kenneth p Collins" kpa...@earthlink.net
Hear! Hear!
Of course the position you've taken is easily-verified, but thank you for "getting on your [high] horse". There's so much tragic ignorance being aflicted, in particular, upon Children that just contemplating it is physically 'painful'.
BTW, your "London cabby" example is extremely-informative in light of NDT's reification of the "internal frame of reference" [IFR; see my previous reply to John].
The Cabbies are 'required' to exist in a relatively "p***ive-phase" {AoK, Ap5, 7 & 8] experiential realm because they must 'move toward' acting upon instructions received from external sources. TRhe structural 'divergences' to which you've referred =definitely= derive in this one thing [which has been reified in NDT for more than two decades [1974-5 academic year]].
Analogous structural 'divergences' will be observed all over the place, and, if folks look for them, the position you've taken will =definitely= be sustained [and the Error of pointing-the-finger-of-'abnormality' at such structural 'divergences' will be Corrected - and, more-importantly, the generating experiential dynamics will be [gradually] transcended as the 'guesswork' that has dictated to prevailing analyses is eliminated].
HURRAH!
ken [k. p. collins]
"kenneth p Collins" kpa...@earthlink.net
The "hyperactivity element" is an =artifact= of the elevated TD E/I that is imposed externally, and which prevents the development of long-term active-phase experience, which weakens, or flat-out prevents, the 'normal' p***iv->active dominance behavioral transition, the absence of which is all that 'adhd' is.
The "hyperactivity element" is 'just' what happens in the absence of robust active-phase [motor-dominant] experience and correlated development - in the absence of inwardly-generated directionality, behavior 'floats' upon the 'sea' of sensory experience. [Modern electronic-gadget stuff, including TV, that imposes behavioral p***ivity [sensory-dominance] augments these dynamics. If folks compare pre-TV brains with contemporaneous brains, they'll find generalized correlated modifications [this can be accomplished through modern scanning techniques with subjects from low- and high-tech populations].
I see folks imposing such on their pets quite commonly. What's Sorrowful is that I also see folks imposing such upon their Children even more commonly.
It's one of the things that NDT's understanding is going to Fix [eventually]. [If it ever is allowed publication :-] ken [k. p. collins] ...
"kenneth p Collins" kpa...@earthlink.net
Please don't go away. They're 'midbrain'-enough for me, and I need you :-[ ken ...
"Peter F." fell_spamtrap_in-hopefullyeffectiveagainsts...@ozemail.com.au
It is deeply and awfully ironic that the minds of normal neuroscientist are part of this naturally evolved 'conspiracy' (i.e., our *almost flawlessly* AEVASIVEly evolved and operating brains;) NOT to deeply understand [or at least NOT sufficiently clearly and completely ENOUGH to inspire wide-spread implementation of in principle cheap and simple social and self-regulatory remedies) what is going on.
You are always pointing this irony out, but in a usually *non*-ironic way, using unusual 'technical' terms.
Other people, who understanding the same scenario but in somewhat different ways to you, say something along these lines: Certain chronically and/or traumatically deprived needs, here especially "touch deprivation" and being held and naturally rocked (while carried around) in early infancy, also deprives the deprived individual's brain of local brain-growth-promoting stimulation; and thereby also causing a hypotrophic condition that is naturally sought to be compensated for in some NOT necessarily successful way -- e.g., by a 'socially disturbing' ADHD type brain functural compromise [just to stay on-topic in this thread].
Some of the simplifying concEPTual and explanatory tricks that I use to understanding mainly myself and people in general, include talking and thinking about ourselves in terms of: The somewhat tenuously tailored acronym-term "AEVASIVE".
It approximatley stands for: "Ambi-advantageously Evolved Vital (or Vested, or any other desperately invoked V-word) Actention (Selection) System, Incorporating (amongst many other key brain-functural elements) Various Endoopiates (use "endoopiates" both because of the acronym-building alphabetic character it provides, and because endogenous opiate-like neuromodulators exist in a central 'psychophysiological position' and play a known role that is quite instructive in a certain respect - one that this acronym is partly meant to refer to); CURSES [short, and appropriately nasty, for: "conditioned-in unconscious remembrances/reverberations of (SHITS-type) stressors, effecting symptoms] -- refers to a type of conditioned in states (most centrally a type of memories); And, for what CURSES are being caused by, I use "selective Hibernation" imploring type (life-)situation(s)" -- or "SHITS" for something sneeringly short and appropriately unpleasant sounding.
Regards, Peter
"Glen M. Sizemore" gmsizemo...@yahoo.com
He's not "goofing" on you, Ken. He's just an idiot - of course, his not seriously mentally ill like you.
"k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message ...
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"Peter F." fell_spamtrap_in-hopefullyeffectiveagainsts...@ozemail.com.au
Dear little Glen, Here is something you can derive vain comfort from: The fact that there are some sophisticated sounding labels for people with your kind of serious deficit.
Yours sincerely, P
"Glen M. Sizemore" gmsizemo...@yahoo.com
Even if that were true, it wouldn't change the fact that you're an idiot.
"Peter F." <fell_spamtrap_in-hopefullyeffectiveagainsts...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message ...
"Peter F." fell_spamtrap_in-hopefullyeffectiveagainsts...@ozemail.com.au
There might be something of interest here! Given the severly limited vocabulary as far as derogatory remarks goes, combined with other previously displayed signs of intellectual stagnation and lack of creative vitality, perhaps the poster (Sizemore) suffers from a selective form of Parkinson-related paralysis affecting the output from Broca's region.?
P
"Peter F." fell_spamtrap_in-hopefullyeffectiveagainsts...@ozemail.com.au
"k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message ...
I believe I am one of the few people that largely appreciate and approve of your brains and behavior relevant pattern recognitions -- and who understands the kind and amount of work that went into what you have written.
I have given you plenty of honest and sincerely meant feedback about *all sorts* of problems with your Interpretation (problems perceived by me).
I am sorry (also for myself) if I sometimes have "made too much of a meal" (and appeared, or been, mean) doing so.
By now, I hope you have develped a healthy immunity to my somewhat ironic style of writing (and thinking).
Very true. Always thought these was good and meaty conceptual means of describing the weight (inertia), depth, and extent of our capacity to learn and remember, and of the "conditioning" (most generally meant) that we have already individually and collectively undergone and adapted to.
Not becoming English-speaking until in my mid-to-late twenties I can't say that it is always easy to get hold of what you mean by expressions such as "ratchet pawlings" though. There is always that kind of barrier to be battled against.
But since the sound of "ratchet" sounds to a Swede almost like "RAT" followed by "SHITS" I suppose I should not complain. %-} I know.
You clearly have come to rely (in part) on this desperately hopeful outlook.
It is energized by diffuse chronic projections from neurons that store your personal past "tragedies" as CURSES *right inside your own brain*.
[The same 'thing' that I like to characterize and concEPTualize as CURSES, can be alternatively labeled or decribed with words coined and put to use by others; E.g.: "subconscious [dimensions of automatically memorized personal] trauma", "primal pain", or "engrams".] We can 'choose' to use CURSES as a motivational fuel for whatever the (AEVASIVE) focuses of actention are that we use to remain *selectively unconscious* about these stored aspects of our personal past; Or we can 'choose' (in cases of sufficient opportunity and capacity) to take a deliberately anti-AEVASIVE "feeling self-regulatory" tack (an optimally reconnecting, specific grieving, strategy).
And so, we (some people) may dramatically re-organize the way we (they) deal with these insidious memories.
The odds for people choosing this "completely anti-AEVASIVE" method (the only available _psychotherapeutic such method) of 'exorcising' CURSES is generally very low given how heavily the human "AEVASIVE biological m***" have been acquired both by phylogeny and by our social and personal histories.
Most cultures even work as if they were nurseries and sources of nourishment for this kind of biological m***" within minds!
Best wishes, Peter P.S. Have you made your formulated overview and understanding easily accessible on the Internet, yet?
"Peter F." fell_spamtrap_in-hopefullyeffectiveagainsts...@ozemail.com.au
No worries, Ken!
P
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