Legal problems (long)

"Richard Tana" rt...@nospam.sdc.edu

I had two manic episodes in my lifetime, separated by about a year. The first was a fun, fast paced rollercoaster ride that left me euphoric for about two weeks. It landed me in a mental hospital for three days and I essentially was unscathed (checkbook intact, no damage to anything, etc). I was given a bottle of zyprexa and lithium, but no diagnosis. I researched the zyprexa (pre FDA approval for bipolar disorder) and saw that it was meant for schizophrenia. I asked my doctor if he thought I was schizophrenic, he said no. I asked him what he thought was wrong. He said he didn't know. So the medicine went in the garbage.
The second episode was a very dark episode that began in a college religious studies course. We were watching an example of tribal religion and practices. Two tribes were celebrating a ritual war that ended when a member of either tribe died. There was an extremely graphical scene where a broken spear was being pulled from the chest of a man by his tribesmen's teeth (a five inch spear tip broke in the heart). There was blood everywhere. Teeth were sparkling white drenched in a bloodied face fractically trying to pull this spear tip from the chest so that his tribe would not lose.
The psychosis followed that pace for the rest of the day. Televisions spoke to me, not at me. Lights flickered. Babies cried in streets. The sun melted the city.
I went for help at two places. I tried to visit my pastor. He was not home. I tried going to my hospital for a "sore throat." They were'nt interested. I finally decided to visit my folks. I was the prodigal son, travelling the 1400 miles to join the family and have all the burdens lifted.
I made it as far as the interstate, when everything clogged up in rush hour traffic. I had slipped so far into mania I thought the crowding was around me. I felt these people were making an exodus with me and I was the cause for this parking lot interstate.
I started driving on the shoulder to get everything moving. If these people could not be led, then I would have to drive around them. A cop followed me at some point and pulled me over at gunpoint. No one was hurt. Later in court, he would testify I drove around bridges, merged into the high speed lane three times, and led a three mile chase. I don't remember it.
I had three felony charges counted against me. I spent two weeks in jail.
Six weeks of the worse depression followed. I pled guilty in a plea bargain to felony reckless driving. I served six months in jail and I have a permanent felony on my record.
I asked a lawyer to review my case and see what could be done. He has told me my case "has merit" for a plea reversal. He comes recommended by my friend who was a legal aid for him for two years. The fee is definitely not trivial: near five figures. And the outcome is not guaranteed. The reversal may not work. The trial may not be won.
My doctor guarantees me this is a common occurence. The probability of a manic depressive either causing financial problems or legal mischief is great. So I figured maybe someone here has a similar story. Or some advice.

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

I have two questions. The first one is; why didn't you get a diagnosis the first time? Second is; did you follow up with a pdoc after the first time.
AFAIK it would be your medical records that would make or break your case.
This is an awful story. I have nothing like this to relate but I have seen simialr things happen to other people I have know. I wish you all the luck with this and hope you have the help you need.
c ...

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

"lickthestar" smalo...@nyc.rr.com

Wow...what a sticky situation. This goes to my original contention that doctors tend to prescribe things before they determine a diagnosis...they just start testing drugs on you to see what works. Well, that aside...I am not your lawyer, so do not take any thing that I say as binding. You should definitely consult with your own lawyer about your situation: Legally, it depends on what your jurisdiction is and what charges were brought up. Well, either way, it's probably a state thing. In some states, it means you're found guilty but mentally ill (GMBI) by a jury and there is a statute to that affect that says OK, if you're found GMBI then you get X amount of time, which your lawyer can try to plea bargain. In other states, you'd be found guilty, and then they'd reduce to perhaps a negligence or reckless charge. Either way, your lawyer is right...it's not guaranteed but the case has merit enough to get your foot in the courtroom door. I'm not sure if they allow bipolar in an insanity defense because they can look at it as a "quasi-insanity defense," like multiple personality or even post traumatic stress disorder. It really really depends. Glad you have a good lawyer, though.
Driving is one of those things that we do all the time, but courts and legislatures make a huge deal out of it. Legally, cars can be considered deadly weapons. Epileptics, for example, are not allowed to drive, because courts have held: you knew you were epileptic, you should not have gotten into a car, had a seizure and caused the accident. If I were you, I'd be really careful driving during this time and in the future. Also, just play it safe, take your meds. Other than that, it looks like you've got a good lawyer and you're under the care of a doctor, and I hope everything works out.
College religion courses are strange. I remember we had to watch a movie on female genital mutilation. They try to get you up in arms about stuff but it never works, just scars you for life. Sometimes I wonder if the deans ever knew some of the things they were showing us in cl***...nothing beats gay men having oral sex (in my media studies cl***), or man fondling a dog (also in media studies), or naked people covered in paint just rolling on the floor (guess where!). Lucky for us, the professor used to let us bring wine to cl***. The joys of going to a Catholic school in liberal NYC...
Sapna ...

acoftil gnn4ev...@startrek.net

It is common for bipolar people to not take their medications, and thus exhibit behavior that gets them into legal, social or financial trouble. The trick is to take your medications, vitamins and do things to help you be well. Some things to help you be well are relaxation techniques, mind/body work and exercise.
Almost every story I hear like yours is a case of someone NOT taking care of themselves and/or their support system failing. Please see your doctor and adjust your medications to avoid such a situation in the future. :) Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.

acoftil gnn4ev...@startrek.net

That is a very stiff penalty for a first offense. I'd say you had bad representation to begin with. But, I do not know the details of your case. JMO, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

One thing here is he wasn't given the "why" on taking the meds. No matter what illness on has, if a doctor just hands out a script and doesn't tell you why you should take it, it is highly probable that a patient would not follow through. This was bad medicine on the part of the doctor. Both people play a part in maintain wellness. Part of that is educating a patient as to why a treatment plan is needed. It is something that is missing in so many cases.
c ...

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

I guess I had a couple negative experiences. Now I like to take a more active roll in my medical care, both physical and menta.
c ...
<rt...@nospam.sdc.edu>

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

Maybe we aren't communicating quite right here. What you did is take an active roll in your care. The first doctor I went to for treatment for BP put me on meds right away. However, after I was diagnosed I read and studied everything I could about it and the medications. Knowing what this illness is about an what is used to treat it help me attain at least some stability and 'normalcy' in my life. It is my preference to know as much about this as I can.
c ...

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

I'm replying to you post in order written. See below.
...
My only concern was that it seemed that the pdoc did not explain why the meds were necessary. Sorry, I have a really hard time with doctors telling me to take my medicine without knowing the whys. That's where the doctor has his responsibility. That is part of his job.
Here I disagree. There are some VERY BAD doctor's out there that are not up to date on medications. They prescribe one size fits all medications and if you react differently than what is expected, it is you not the medication at fault. I have had the experience recently where the doctors did not believe the symptoms I was having and were quite irresponsible in their medical care os both me and others. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this part because I treat healthcare from a consumer veirwpoint. I want to know the where's and why's of my medical care and if I'm not getting those answers I'll find somone else who will. I've been burned by poor medical treatment too many times to trust without personal knowledge. I am medically compliant, not medically complacent.
I guess we read his post differently. What he experienced is not uncommon with severe bipolar. I still get the impression that he did not understand why he needed the meds so dumped them. The doctor should have explained why Zyprexa is used for him. He didn't have go give him an immediate diagnosis, just the reason why he was prescribed the drug and what to expect. That is medical responsibility.
How was he to know they were going to help when he wasn't told why he was taking them? That is the main issue I have with this. I think we agree on most of the others.
Maybe we should both have been lawyers? :>) c

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

That is also possible. We weren't there so we will not know. However, I think we did get a good discussion going, n'est pas?
c ...

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

I'd make a helluva lot more money than being an artist on disability.
However, could you see one of us showing up for court hypomanic/manic?
Probably get contempt citations up the wazoo!!!!
c ...

gentleman1 ...@yahoo.com (Garfunkel)

I can only wonder why you didn't plead NGRI (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity) instead of your other plea bargain. Society usually forgives behaviours that are felt to be outside the person's control (such as reckless driving, perhaps as a result of a short-term misperceived notion of reality) as a result of illness, such as bipolar disorder.
I know someone who walked out of court with no fine, no fees, no points on the driving record, no automobile insurance problems, etc., after such a plea following a reckless driving incident. (Also no legal fees: you don't need a lawyer to say "NGRI" for you! Just get an official written statement from your psychiatrist, or get yourself declared "bipolar" in a court proceeding. Your psychiatrist might charge something like $1000 to appear in court on your behalf, to declare you "insane, with bipolar disorder.") It is kinda like paying taxes: you need to learn how to use the system for your advantage, remaining within the limits of the law.

"lickthestar" smalo...@nyc.rr.com

Your friend may have been lucky but NGRI is not available in every jurisdiction and even it were, that doesn't alway mean that one is excused.
It depends on the criminal statutes, the state common law and whether or not they've adopted the Modal Penal Code. Also society does NOT forgive behaviours outside one's control as a result of bipolar and if you honestly believe that, then you probably should get a lawyer to try and explain things to you. I'm not jumping down your throat but please don't encourage people to get a doctor's note that they're bipolar to get away with things.
If you were on the other end of the car accident getting your head smashed in, I highly doubt that you'd allow someone to get away with a defense that they are bipolar and should not be held accountable for their actions. I'm pretty sure you'd be angry enough to want to collect on the damages and pay for your skull to be repaired.
It's one thing to help someone with bipolar who is accused of a felony to plea bargain their way out for a lesser charge. It's another thing altogether to get a doctor's note and get away with it especially when other humans are involved.
Sapna

"Kathleen S. Fisher" kfis...@mindspring.com

Hey, HyperBum and Colleen--remember this, next time one of your jokes falls flat~~~~it takes intelligence to have a creative sense of humor! :-) Kathy F.
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"Richard Tana" rt...@nospam.sdc.edu

Thank you to all that replied. Your replies were very informative and helpful.
I haven't replied sooner because this is the first message my actual news server has caught. I used Deja to read the rest of the replies. This newsgroup seems to suffer from not being carried by admins, article retention, etc etc. Not even deja caught all of the thread.
Here are my comments on two of the major ideas.
Stopping the medication (asking for it?): I quit taking medication the first time because the side effects were alarming and I never received a concrete answer to why I needed them. I was prescribed Zyprexa and lithium and as I mentioned before, at the time, zyprexa was only indicated for schizophrenia. My doctor's mantra was "it may be an isolated incident or it may not be, but it's too early to diagnose now." I don't think he ever mentioned bipolar.
"Hindsight is 20/20." I quit the drugs making the best decision based on information that I had at the time. The doctor was elusive on a diagnosis, he gave me drugs for a disorder he ***ured me I didn't have, and I didn't get to ask all my questions because it took him 20 minutes of our 30 minute appointment to find my file (he lost the file among at least 1000 other sheets of paper on his desk). If I had to do it all over again, given the same scenario and lack of information, I'm certain I would have discontinued the medication at some point. I think it was a reasonable decision then.
I wish I had done otherwise, but that's based on new information that I have now.
Legal stuff: I met with my lawyer for the first time last Friday. It sounds like I had less than stellar representation when I plea bargained. The bipolar disorder never entered the case. Nor did a psychiatric ***essment - which I understand would be standard for this type of defense.
That might give enough bite to legally changing my plea and starting over from scratch with the charges. Unfortunately, it's extremely rare and difficult to change a plea. If anyone is interested, I'll keep you updated on the progress of the case. I've signed a retainer and the next few months will definitely be interesting.
Thanks again all.
...

"Colleen" {oops...@hotmail.com}

I'm not sure if you are under psychiatric care at this time. Being under a doctor's care could help your case. IMO you got screwed big time. Hope it works out for you. Please let us know how it goes.
c ...

gentleman1 ...@yahoo.com (Garfunkel)

Hey, how about this one?
http://www.ncadp.org/html/arkansas_-_sanity_case_-_2_11.html

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