Best U.S. drug policy: regulate cannabis for adults (19+)
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"Chowder" c...@chowder.com
If we regulate cannabis (marijuana) for adults aged 19 and over, that would be about the most perfect policy possible. I'm thinking if we have it at 18, that would still be possibly a year in which kids are still in high school.
If we regulate it, we get it away from children like alcohol is done today.
"242" 2...@nospam.com
today.
alcohol is not very hard to get even if your under the legal age limit.
when i was just starting highschool (age 13) me and my friends would just get an older student to go into the beer store for us for $5 or something simple like that.
a ...@my-deja.com
That means more enforcement needs to be directed at enforcing age limits.
That is easily construed as a crime with a victim (the minor), and should be enforced zealously. Treating consenting adults as minors who simply cannot mature beyond that with respect to current illicits is just plain silly.
aocp "That's a judgment call and i'm makin' it." - Bill Hicks Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
"Nathan Engle" nen...@indiana.edu
And then weather all the complaints from people who think that there's nothing wrong with selling alcohol or MJ or anything else to young people.
I would say that both the underaged drinker and the supplier of the booze should be in trouble, but I think I prefer the word "diligently" over "zealously". Diligence is a matter of deep commitment without going overboard, while zeal is more akin to extremism.
I rest ***ured those adults are certainly not treated as minors.
Mark.Wri ...@bristol.ac.uk
And what exactly is wrong with selling such things to young people ion their 20's and late teens? Or are you confusing the terms 'young' and 'child' again?
Mark
"Nathan Engle" nen...@indiana.edu
That depends on what exactly you're talking about. For example I think it should definitely be criminal to sell steroids to young men age 18-25. They just don't need the temptation to sacrifice their long term health in exchange for bulking up their biceps in the short term.
Steroids are something which seem to have a tragic attraction for young men, and it would be myopic and heartless to just stand back uninvolved while they march like moths into the flame.
Obviously there are a whole spectrum of directions you can go from there - drugs that have even worse health consequences, and ones that have less bad ones. My belief is that the best reason to avoid treating the "mild" drugs like playthings is just one of mindset.
It's the establishment of good habit, sort of like operating both the brake and the accelerator with the same foot so that you're absolutely sure you're only stomping on one at a time.
In any event, you should know that Arclight's customers were 16, and clearly there are also folks selling drugs to even younger kids. In my view the best outcome would be if the peers of these people tried to convince them that selling to kids is wrong, but if you folks aren't willing to speak up and get your anarchists and reprobates in line then law enforcement has its own suggestions about how to proceed.
People who are willing to clean up their own messes warrant a lot more patience than ones stuck in their own filth.
When the so-called adult is a 50 year old hippie with a pony tail and a tie-dye T-shirt, are you trying to tell me that it's wrong to say that this person is in Never-Never Land? (that's "the place where you never have to grow up", for those of you unfamiliar with _Peter Pan_).
Mark.Wri ...@bristol.ac.uk
Then you must argue for the age of majority to be raised to 25 from 18.
Of course, the reason why we have a clear and defined age of majority is so that people like you cant go cutting ever more people out of adult life on the premise that ''they arent mature enough yet'', and then insert your own definition of mature. Personally, I think people who believe in God(s), the supernatural etc, are clearly not mentally mature yet; since such beliefs are the recourse of an insecure and naive mind. It worries me that they can go about their business everyday like driving hulks of metal at 70mph and having kids - but that is life. Immature people get to do adult stuff when they reach adult age. We do not apply tests to people to qualify as adults, nor should we ever.
: In any event, you should know that Arclight's customers were : 16, and clearly there are also folks selling drugs to even younger : kids.
People who sell to under 16s are scum, and one of the aims of legalisation and regulation is to cut sales to under 16s. Whether the legal age for cannabis would be 16 or 18 is ripe for debate. Those arguing for 16 would say that cannabis is safer than tobacco and tobacco is available [in the UK] at 16. Those arguing for 18 (e.g. me) would say that the age for tobacco ought to be raised to 18 also. IMO the difference between 16 and 18 is great. A m***ive ammount of social skill and development occurs in that period, and it is clearly evident in any group of 18yos vs 16yos. The US is alone in the western world at thinking that 21 is a good age for majority, which seems to be the prevailing wind over there. But then, as they say, 'treat people like kids, and they'll act like kids' : In my view the best outcome would be if the peers of these : people tried to convince them that selling to kids is wrong, but if : you folks aren't willing to speak up and get your anarchists and : reprobates in line then law enforcement has its own suggestions : about how to proceed.
No only will people like me speak up about that, but if I ever see anyone selling to a kid I will take out my mobile phone and call the police immediately...
: When the so-called adult is a 50 year old hippie with a pony : tail and a tie-dye T-shirt, are you trying to tell me that it's wrong : to say that this person is in Never-Never Land?
Long hair and colourful t-shifts are a sign of something? I think it shows that they are probably more mature than the childish flocks of conformist sheep who think that grey suits and short cropped hair imply maturity and wisdom.
: (that's "the place where you never have to grow up", for those of you : unfamiliar with _Peter Pan_).
Gee, thank God you put that in (God, for those unfamiliar with the Bible, is the supposed creator of the universe.) Mark
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"Nathan Engle" nen...@indiana.edu
Nah. I'd prefer to just leave steroids controlled for everybody at all ages. People with medical necessity can go through their doctors. Besides, the "age of majority" is already different for different behaviors. There's no logical reason to argue that it has to be the same for everything.
Or maybe they just understand more about their place in the universe than you do.
Actually that isn't exactly true. The US Supreme Court will be reviewing standards of legal competence this upcoming term.
You would be correct to say that we don't always conduct "pre-
screening", but it *is* possible for people to be declared incompetent after examination.
Those are the only two choices? Not 21? Or even 25?
That is scary. Given everything we know about tobacco, you still sell it to 16 year olds? With all due respect I think that's something at which we're doing a lot better over here.
The difference between 18 and 21 year olds is enormous as well - maybe even more than the difference between 16 and 18.
By 25 most people have settled down, which is the reason I lean towards it myself.
What can we say? The whole reason we came here was to be trend-setters.
Arclight is being treated as an adult by your system, but somehow it doesn't seem to have helped *his* outlook.
Great. Tell that to Arclight. Tell him *why*. He seems confused on the subject.
I think so. When you see 50 year olds acting that way it's tempting to call it a "2nd childhood" except for the fact that their arrested socialization may have never enabled them to even finish their first.
If you say so. People like them built the society you now enjoy.
"kathleen" kathle...@netscape.net
Oh, boy! Please email me if you ever take a vacation on this side of the pond, to the southern U.S.
If you're in my town, I'd be happy to drive you around while you run down the batteries in your mobile phone dialing the police.
We can start with the 17-year-old around the corner who sells crack to the middle-school kids - 6th through 8th grade, 12 to 14-year-olds. With some concentrated effort, we ought to be able to get the scum caught in possession a couple times and get him off the street for a while.
kathleen
Arclight daniel.dav...@cableinet.co.uk
On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:47:28 -0500, "Nathan Engle" you still haven't explaned what is wrong with selling drugs to people in there late teens.
TTFN Arclight Web Site: http://www.daniel-davies.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ I'm a social Drinker (but I do drugs like a professional)
brian bennett shp...@mindspring.com
since the federal government in its infinite wisdom has determined that 18 is the magic age of adulthood, then anyone 18 or over should be able to engage in all adult behaviors unsupervised and unfettered by age discrimination.
if the government can compel you to sign up for the draft so they can put you in front of a fast moving piece of lead or incoming artillery shell should the urge strike them, then 18 MUST be the recognized age of freedom.
regulating recreational intoxicants is a good idea, but can never be successful while such things are illegal. you can't "control" what you don't see.
the solution is simple: declare an age of "adulthood," then get the **** out of the way. and yes, penalties should be ***essed against people supplying intoxicants to youth -- unless it is their parents. one reason we have such problems with intoxicants in our nation is that no one is taught how to use them properly (including alcohol). teach people how to get high safely, and don't throw parents in jail for "reckless endangerment" or whatever -- let them teach their kids how to use drugs.
b
Mark.Wri ...@bristol.ac.uk
: Or maybe they just understand more about their place in the : universe than you do.
Maybe we just understand more about the place of drugs in human society and experience than you do...
:> People who sell to under 16s are scum, and one of the aims of legalisation :> and regulation is to cut sales to under 16s. Whether the legal age for :> cannabis would be 16 or 18 is ripe for debate.
: Those are the only two choices? Not 21? Or even 25?
No, not in Europe.
:> Those arguing for 18 (e.g. me) would say that the age for :> tobacco ought to be raised to 18 also. IMO the difference between 16 and :> 18 is great. A m***ive ammount of social skill and development occurs in :> that period, and it is clearly evident in any group of 18yos vs 16yos.
: The difference between 18 and 21 year olds is enormous as : well - maybe even more than the difference between 16 and 18.
I dont think so. The difference between 18 and 21 depends largely (IMO) on whether the person went into higher education. People who go though higher education learn a lot more by coming into contact with a wide and varied social cross-section of people. People who go straight into work in the same town they grew up in at 18 (i.e. most people) dont change that much by 21. The people I know who went straight into work havent changed much by 25 either.
: Arclight is being treated as an adult by your system, but : somehow it doesn't seem to have helped *his* outlook.
No he isnt. Cannabis is still banned for him as it is for everyone.
: Great. Tell that to Arclight. Tell him *why*. He seems : confused on the subject.
Arclight has his own opinions, which I didnt think included selling to children. Perhaps I am wrong.
:> I think it shows :> that they are probably more mature than the childish flocks of conformist :> sheep who think that grey suits and short cropped hair imply maturity and :> wisdom.
: If you say so. People like them built the society you now enjoy.
I ENJOY THIS SOCIETY??? This one which destroys the lives of peaceful people eating herbs; the one which fills the world with nuclear weapons; the one which sees thousands of children dies of starvation every week while a handful are blessed with godly wealth? People like them built this society which I hate - which is why I hate them and try to change this society...
Mark
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"Nathan Engle" nen...@indiana.edu
Fair enough. We differ in opinion. So. How shall we decide?
Roll of dice? Cut cards? Fight to the death? No? Ok, how about we *vote* on it?
The question of drug legality *has* been considered via the democratic process. So far the consensus has been to leave them illegal. In a system such as ours that *could* change if there was the political inertia to make it happen. But unfortunately for you all too many of your numbers are made up of anarchists and non-conformists and even a fair number of people who are just disinterested in politics entirely. Getting *anything* done with allies like them just isn't very likely.
Hey, we've sold you computers and blue jeans and the Big Mac. Who can say what other American fashions might catch on? The last time I checked there weren't any "One Way" signs in the Altantic Ocean, and with global communications we're closer than ever before.
We're your new neighbors. I guess now you know how the Scots felt when they discovered that their "downstairs neighbors" were the English. I thought it was expressed perfectly in Johnny Cunningham's Christmas card from his brother Phil on Praire Home Companion this past weekend -
"You're born in fear, you live in pain, and you die alone.
Merry Christmas".
I certainly do.
Perhaps so. Frankly I was ***uming that we sort of hoped that *everybody* could go on to higher education. If you have a different view then I suppose that's your business.
It might just be the individuals. Aging is manditory. Maturity is optional.
That's what I said. He's being treated like adults in your system are treated.
Would it bother you if you were? Would it be enough to make you want to talk to him and ask him to go a different way?
That's the one, although I gather there have also been a few Mozarts and Einsteins and Dr King's thrown in for good measure.
Dr King wore a suit and had short hair. Frankly I can think of a lot less complimentary costumes.
If you hate it that much, why are you sticking around? Stapled to your chair? Or just determined to stay close so that you can detest it that much more?
"the White Rabbit" scot...@tiac.net
Its a marathon, not a sprint.
Szasz sz...@my-deja.com
Isn't that what we've been saying all along? :-) Slow and steady wins the race. The cracks are clearly visible in the Prohibition Machine. The momentum is there.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
"The Informer" twobe...@home.com
If anyone has a subscription to Playboy, I hope you read the article from the Govenor of New Mexico. He is pushing a legalization approach to drugs, not just pot, but all drugs. He brings up some very interesting scenarios and possibilities for legalization of drugs. I suggest anyone who reads the messages on this board to check it out. If you don't have a subscription, go you the nearest convienient store and pick up a copy. The article was great and it was great to see a politician with views similar to a lot of us on this board.
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Brian N. Miller brian_n_mil...@yahoo.com
You seem confused. Read my excerpts below for what Governor Johnson actually said, including: "Only addicts would be allowed to get drugs. They would have to get a prescription." The article is available online at: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n1854/a07.html Here are some relevant excerpts from the interview: "JOHNSON: I forgo any political future because I believe in this issue." "JOHNSON: It is the biggest issue in the country, and it's not being addressed." "JOHNSON: Holland is the only country in the world that has a rational drug policy." "JOHNSON: Half of all crime is drug-related." "PLAYBOY: How would the legalization of heroin actually work?
JOHNSON: Only addicts would be allowed to get drugs. They would have to get a prescription." "JOHNSON: Methadone should be available from drugstores." "JOHNSON: Legalization is not around the corner. I realize what a taboo it is. It's political suicide to push it." "JOHNSON: If we legalized all drugs across the board, we would have a better situation than we have today." "JOHNSON: America is about allowing choice. It's about giving individuals freedoms and holding them accountable for those freedoms." "JOHNSON: The real killer is tobacco, but I certainly wouldn't outlaw cigarettes." "PLAYBOY: When it comes to marijuana, would you settle for decriminalization rather than full-blown legalization?
JOHNSON: Decriminalization turns its back on half of the problem.
With decriminalization, you are going to allow a person to possess and use marijuana, but not to buy it. In other words, how are people going to get the pot? They are still going to get it from illegal dealers who are buying it from bigger dealers. Decriminalization doesn't deal with the problems of street crime and organized crime. It doesn't at all deal with the drug kingpins. Of course marijuana use should be decriminalized, but we also have to stop the illegal activities that support the industry. Only legalization does that." "JOHNSON: Marijuana is not a gateway drug." "JOHNSON: Violent behavior is not ***ociated with marijuana." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
"Nathan Engle" nen...@indiana.edu
You *are* your own explanation.
Just a hint: remember when I've spoken about the establishment of the mindset that drugs are playthings? And how this starts out being cute and cuddly with MJ and then turns ugly later on when heroin and crack turn out to be not so cute and cuddly any more?
Remember when I've spoken of Brother Gary Birdsong's sermon about a "Season of Sin", a time in a person's life when their heart is made cold and hard, and their disposition sours, and their relationship with the world transforms from a nurturing one into a malevolent one?
You *should* remember it. Although Brother Gary has never met you, he was describing you in intimate detail.
"Nathan Engle" nen...@indiana.edu
Slatts <Phil@(SPAMFREE)Slatts.freeserve.co.uk> wrote If the threat of prison hasn't been enough to drive them out of the business, how exactly is your licensing board going to have any more influence with them?
I disagree. I know that it's no cake-walk, but we *have* been seeing modest drops in use of most drugs over the past couple of years. It isn't nearly as bad as you people try to depict it.
Doesn't that depend on whether you're digging a grave for an ex-junkie? Some things you just want to bury deep.
Mark.Wri ...@bristol.ac.uk
: We can start with the 17-year-old around the corner who sells crack to the : middle-school kids - 6th through 8th grade, 12 to 14-year-olds. With some : concentrated effort, we ought to be able to get the scum caught in : possession a couple times and get him off the street for a while.
Clearly the police are overworked, such that they simply cant to their job. Has it ever occured to you that if they werent spending their time smashing in the doors of peaceful adults enjoying herbs, they would have a whole lot more time to spend chasing dealers who sell to kids, child abusers, paedophiles etc. It's a well known fact that nations spend orders of magnitudes more money on waging the War on Drugs than they do waging little more than an argument against child abuse. I guess we all can see where society's priorities lie...
Mark
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Mark.Wri ...@bristol.ac.uk
Human rights are not up for the vote. If all the world votes you should die your human right to life more than outweighs that democratic wish of the people. I think that's a wonderful concept really.
: The question of drug legality *has* been considered via the : democratic process. So far the consensus has been to leave them : illegal.
The people were deceived, lied to and systematically drowned in propaganda from those with vested interests. The people will vote for anything if they are lied to enough - witness 1932 Germany.
: In a system such as ours that *could* change if there was : the political inertia to make it happen. But unfortunately for you : all too many of your numbers are made up of anarchists and : non-conformists and even a fair number of people who are just : disinterested in politics entirely.
Sadly true, but here in Europe things are changing. PR voting systems give Greens, Leftists and Cl***ic Liberals there fair share of the vote, which together curently sits at, say, ~30% of the vote. We only need to win over either the centre-left or centre-right to make the majority. It happened in the Netherlands with the centre-right, and now Belgium with the centre-left. The WOD is in it's endgame in Europe, and when the armistice is signed Americans will see that legalisation/regulation *works*.
: Perhaps so. Frankly I was ***uming that we sort of hoped : that *everybody* could go on to higher education. If you have : a different view then I suppose that's your business.
A fine aspiration, but the cost of living means that will never happen while higher education isnt free.
: Would it bother you if you were? Would it be enough to : make you want to talk to him and ask him to go a different way?
I would try to persuade him that recreational cannabis for under 16s is a bad idea. Just like I try to persuade you that legalised cannabis is a good idea.
: If you hate it that much, why are you sticking around? Stapled : to your chair?
No, more a lack of interstellar transportation.
: Or just determined to stay close so that you can : detest it that much more?
No, dont want future generations to suffer like those in the past and present.
Mark
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"the White Rabbit" scot...@tiac.net
Nathan, explain to me how marijuana making you want to use heroin or crack is biologically possible. Did you ever use heroin or crack? Or are you different than everyone else?
"The Informer" twobe...@home.com
I understand that addicts would only be able to get a drug like Herion, but in the interview, he also states that we probably couldn't make all drugs legal right away. He stated that we could start with drugs that already had been legalized somewhere so we would have some type model to base our laws on. He is referring to Holland and Amsterdam as countries with an established model for marijuana legalization. It wouldn't be the same as heroin, where only people established as addicts could gain access to the drug. The way I read it, and as I understand foreign laws about marijuana, it is legal for anyone to have a certain amount of pot, and they can smoke it in establishments specifically meant for pot smoking...hash bars, etc.
It appears that this is the type of model he is endorsing with marijuana.
In your quote from the article, the question he is answering is about heroin, not pot.
"Brian N. Miller" <brian_n_mil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message ...
"Chowder" c...@chowder.com
Nathan, you are a sad guy.
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