So, it got worse, now when does it get better?
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"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
I remember people telling me that I should be prepared. That if I were to develop a stronger sense of self and be more confident in my dealings with him, he would likely fight back and things would get worse before they got better.
Well, I think I've made a lot of good strides against my depression. I do feel stronger and more confident. I have a way to go of course, but at least I'm going in the right direction.
And things have indeed gotten worse -- much worse -- at home. The anger, contempt, etc. is palpable. Last night he came to me holding a scrap of label that the dog had chewed, and said, "I *told* you not to let him get the labels!" I said, "Don't yell at me." "I'm sick and tired of finding his crap all over the house." "Don't yell at me." I can't really remember word for word after that, but at one point I said something about how he could help out more and he said, "You get more help than you deserve! You just don't get off your lazy butt and do anything!" Well, it's nothing he hasn't intimated before with all his grunts and glares, but it was unusual for him to say it straight out. And the thing is that I just don't see how he can even justify it to himself. I'd been on the go from 6:30 am solid -- I was exhausted! Anyway, I did know better than to try to justify *myself* to him.
This morning he had a chip on his shoulder the entire morning. He barely spoke to me, he wouldn't do anything that could possibly be construed as helpful (for example he refused to pick up the phone less than two feet away). He's been just truly hateful. Then I went out to the scout shop and to get some Valentine's for DS's cl***, and when I came back, I was met at the door by DD in tears.
Apparently she'd gotten into a fight with her brother, and when DH tried to intervene, she yelled at him and threw a stuffed horse at him. So he took the horse and ripped it to shreds. He tore the front leg off completely, as well as a strip of covering that ran all the way down his belly. So the poor animal was completely eviscerated -- stuffing everywhere.
I took the horse to him and said, "What were you thinking?" He said, "She yelled at me and threw it at me, so I ripped it." I said, "I can't believe you are actually trying to justify this!" He said, "She *threw it at me*!" I said, "Sure! So you take it away! You punish her! But you don't go ripping it up! You're supposed to be the adult!" So I don't know which is worse -- that he destroyed something in a fit of anger, or that he absolutely refuses to acknowledge that he did anything wrong. He's completely unrepentant. In his mind, it's completely her fault that the horse got destroyed because she yelled at him first.
I don't know how much more I can take.
Zorra
inky56NOS ...@hellokitty.com (MaryLou)
I don't recall, how old are your kids?
IMO, physical violence is not justified here, either from the girl throwing an object at a person or from the father reacting in anger and destroying it.
This sounds like a really bad atmosphere for everyone involved. :-(
Lauri lau...@despamcharter.despamnet
Zorra, this scares me. I'm afraid for you.
You'll know when you can't take anymore. I think I'd be afraid of him at this point.
Lauri in WA
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
She's 10. Her behavior was clearly inapropriate, but he's still the adult. Taking it away from her, along with a suitable punishment, is called for. Ripping it up in front of her is just....not right.
Zorra
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
I don't know if I should be or not. I mean, he's clearly not in control of his anger. But there is a huge gap between a stuffed toy and a person. This is only the second time since I've known him that he's been angry enough to destroy something. The last time was a door frame, but that was a year or maybe two years ago.
Zorra
Doug Anderson ethelthelogremovet...@yahoo.com
Out of curiosity, _was_ he yelling at you?
Well, her behavior was indeed bad. Not that this justifies his behavior being bad.
Zorra, I'm very glad that you are feeling stronger and more sure of yourself as a person.
The two incidents you are relating here are both incidents where you have decided to stand up and fight a battle with him. He has two choices - keep fighting, or feel like he is losing. I'm not sure if that is a helpful direction to channel your new-found confidence in.
Perhaps it is better to use that confidence to try to establish your boundaries rather than attempt to make him admit his error.
In the first incident, rather than arguing with him it might be better to say "I won't continue a discussion with you until you speak to me in a respectful tone of voice." In the second case it might have been better to say "I don't think we should be modeling violence and destruction of property to our children." ANd then just ignore him as he fumes.
You ask when it will get better.
Maybe never. But it isn't likely to get better until you reach a point where _he_ is so unhappy with how things are that he is is willing to work _with_ you in trying to make things better rather than resist you.
Unfortunately, being grumpy and angry and irritated at you doesn't really seem to bother him very much. And maybe you arguing with him doesn't bother him enough either.
So far it seems like you've had two options you can see. Appease him, or fight with him. Neither option seems to be likely to read to good results. Is there a third option? Something which involves trying not to let the way he treats you affect you?
inky56NOS ...@hellokitty.com (MaryLou)
i agree. It was a childish thing for him to do.
And she's got to somehow be stopped from reacting in violence.
And his reaction is just reinforcing it.
:-( Sorry, wish i had a solution but i don't at this point. At 10, it may have just been a stuffed animal that was thrown.
At 15, it might be a more dangerous object.
"Tai" tainu...@gmail.com
This is good.
He's full of anger and looking for hooks to hang it on. It wouldn't matter how perfectly you ran your home there'd always be something for him to use to express his negatives feelings to you.
Good. It wouldn't matter anyway - it's really not about what you do or don't do in the way of chores to his satisfaction it's about how he feels about you and his dissatisfaction with *you* as a person.
Maybe - but there's a good chance he does know he was very stupid and he just has no intention of admitting it to anyone. On the other hand, he's seeing himself as some poor put-upon martyr with everyone making his life hard so that means he has to feel as if he's right in every conflict.
His taking his general mood of anger out on your childen is very bad and I can see how that would make you fearful of what else he might do and also affect how much you are prepared to tolerate. It's one thing to go through the pain when it's directed at you but another when you children cop the fallout.
A toy is not a person and if he is not generally a violent person then one would hope shredding the horse was merely a toddler tantrum held by an adult suffering from an overload of anger and frustration (self-inflicted, of course). But.... whether he will agree with you or not, calmly state one more time that nothing like that is to happen again and make some plans in case it does.
If you're getting into an argument everytime you hold firm on something then stop. Say "we obviously see this situation differently but I won't discuss it with you while you are angry and being insulting" and walk away. Don't bring it up again - give him nothing to work with except his own response and how effective whatever that is with you. Currently, his usual response is no longer working for him, right? He's going to have to figure out a new one but he won't do that until he's ready and he believes he *needs* a new approach.
He will either calm down and start dealing with you as an equal who is entitled to respect (can you imagine him treating a work colleague the way he treats you?) or he will never learn to do so. All you can do is decide what way of living will be the healthiest for you and your family and follow that line.
I'm sorry, Zorra.
Can you get him to go along with you to your counsellor again so he can be told exactly what is happening and why, in a safe (for you) place?
Tai
"urf" urf...@nospam.com
Using your account of events you are describing a very sick emotionally sick man.
Prepare yourself.
"Jess" h...@domain.com
That's good to hear. :) That's a really good start.
This is where I think you slipped. You should've kept the refrain of "don't yell at me" going. You jumped right into that dance with him, and I don't think it was quite as effective as you would've wanted.
Who cleaned up the stuffing?
Right now, do you want to make him admit he's wrong, or do you want to be able to stand up for yourself? If it's the first, I wouldn't think you'd be successful. If it's the latter, you're on a good start.
You're doing good. *Hugs* Just take it a day at a time.
Jess
"Bill in Co." very_surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net
That's what I've been trying to tell y'all all along!!
"Bill in Co." very_surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net
Oh yeah, right. Like HOW??? What would you actually suggest she do (as in, real ACTIONS?) These are just words ("prepare yourself") Damn, it sounds like it is high time to get out, while you still can.
And still have any sense of self left.
(((Zorra)))
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
Yeah, but he doesn't see that. He used to complain that I stayed up all night on the computer -- that was in fact his only "real" complaint as far as he told the counselor. But now that I'm working, I'm back on a much more typical sleep/wake cycle, and am often in bed before he is. And things have gotten worse instead of better.
Actually, the book I mentioned, "You Don't Have to Take It Anymore" theorizes that it's not about me at all, but about his own feelings of inadequacy. "Resentment is...never about content.... It's about using blame in an effort to reduce guilt, shame, and anxiety." "The crucial thing for you to remember is that your husband's resentment, anger, and abuses are about his inability to live up to his core value, not about the content of his complaints or the fairness of his attitudes.
I've actually pointed that out to him for years -- that he would never treat his colleagues or friends this way. He just seems to feel that they don't deserve it and I do.
My therapist is out of town for a couple of weeks. I don't think I'll be able to convince DH to go back.
Zorra
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
He was speaking to me very angrily. It doesn't quite fit the definition of "yell" but I've never found a more technically accurate phrase which adequately describes how what he's doing makes me feel.
Well, according to the book I'm reading, I'm supposed to be trying to reconnect with my inner core.
Zorra
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
20/20 hindsight. It's very easy to critique after the fact, but I feel that all in all, I did very well not to get caught up fighting with him.
My daughter had the horse "bandaged" back together by the time I came home. I was pretty shocked at the damage.
It's not about making him admit it -- it's about wanting him to realize it. You'd think by now that nothing would surprise me, but it does. I continue to be shocked at just how cold and cruel he can be, with no apparent twinges of guilt or remorse.
Zorra
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
But I've known him for 17 years. Can someone really become violent for the first time in their lives at 43?
Zorra
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
You see, one of the things that attracted my to DH was the complete respect he had for his dad, and the comp***ion he had for his mom. I thought that was a good indication that I'd be treated the same way.
Well, as I've said, this is the 2nd piece of uncontrolled anger he's displayed ever. The first was more than a year ago. And he's never ever hit me. I do get scared that he can lose control, and that he can then blame a 10YO for that loss of control.
But I can't believe he'd ever become violent against a living creature.
Yeah, that's the killer. If he doesn't think he has a problem, he won't work on it.
Zorra
"Zorra" zo...@adelphia.net
What disturbed me most was that he blamed it on her. "She made me do it." Zorra
"Bill in Co." very_surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net
And that is so typical of today's generation!!
"Bill in Co." very_surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net
I would think so. With people, just about *anything* is possible.
"Bill in Co." very_surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net
This is VERY depressing.
But Zorra, you should never underestimate the "capabilities" of mankind, because then, and only then, will you be able to find true serenity.
See, the key is Acceptance. (I know this cause I heard it somewhere...).
Lauri lau...@despamcharter.despamnet
More likely, he knows that his behavior wouldn't be tolerated at work.
If he treated his boss the way he treats you,even for a few days, he'd be fired. If he treated friends the way he treats you, they'd stop calling and spending time with him. Till this point, you've been a sort of captive audience so there really hasn't been any reason for him to change the way he treats you. Now that you're drawing a boundary, he's upping the ante.
Lauri in WA
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