On Drinking And Driving
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mrmun ...@aol.com (Mr Munyan)
ON DRINKING AND DRIVING Last weekend, my son came over to see me for a heart to heart talk. He told me that he wants to become a teacher. Naturally, I did my best to encourage him. The teaching profession can well benefit from an additional troop with the Munyan blood.
However, he does have this one minor little problem that might hold him back.
He has a DUI conviction on his record. Even though this is only a misdemeanor, this might be enough to blackball him from a lot of school districts.
However, this is not necessarily the case in mine. Our building principals enjoy a lot of clout in who they want to hire. They usually have the final say.
Personally, I would hire him in a heartbeat. As long as he only has that one DUI, I don't see any problem. However, I doubt I could get away with hiring him if he has a second one.
In my school district, once you get your foot in the door and become hired as a bona fide teacher, you usually have a little more leeway. One DUI and you can usually keep your job. What you have to do is admit to being an alcoholic, cite the American Disabilities Act, and pledge to go through an alcohol rehabilitation program.
In other words, play the game.
The best shop teacher I ever had on my faculty managed to get three DUI convictions while under my wing. After the first one, he was ordered to enter a rehab program. His job was waiting for him when he got out. No problem.
After the second one, our central office administration wanted to terminate him. However, I went to bat for him. As a result, he got one more chance. He went back into rehab, and his cl***room and shop were waiting for him when he returned.
The bottom line is that most alcoholics and addicts don't succeed at their first rehab effort. For most, it takes two or more stints. As they say in a lot of twelve step meetings, relapse is a part of recovery. It's the nature of the disease. This was the crux of my defense.
The third time he struck out. He was terminated, and I did not go to bat for him this time.
I advised him time and time again to stay off the interstates and main highways after drinking -- and to take the regular roads instead. I even told him the safest roads to take, located in neighborhoods where hardly anybody gets busted for a DUI.
High crime neighborhoods work the best. No self-respecting cop is going to stop you for a random sobriety check when there are muggings and drug deals going down at any given moment only a block away.
In contrast, interstates are constantly crawling with state troopers and cops who are just licking their chops over the prospect of nailing their next DUI. Sure enough, his third DUI took place right on the interstate.
I tried in vain to teach him this stuff. But he didn't listen.
On the positive side, however, I learned a valuable lesson from all of this. You just can't help everybody.
Let's be honest. One DUI can happen to anybody, even to a normally responsible drinker. All it takes is being in the wrong place at the wrong time, especially at a DUI checkpoint in a state with a BAC limit of 0.8.
To some drinkers, all it takes is a couple of beers to reach this limit. In my opinion, this is a gross human injustice, one which ruins the lives of a lot of good people and hurts the bartending industry as well.
Case in point. One of my fellow lodge members is a former bartender who lost his job because he served a regular customer a third beer. The poor bastard got stopped by a cop on the way home, blew a 0.09, and got a conviction.
Personally, I think the limit should be raised to 0.15. Any decent hard working man, or woman for that matter, deserves to be able to stop off at a bar after work and enjoy a few beers without having to risk getting a DUI.
Here's another point. In my opinion, the influence of drinking on driving has been grossly exaggerated. The bottom line is that a great number of motorists on our roads today can't drive worth a damn anyway, no matter how sober they are. Human stupidity is a far greater factor in the cause of traffic accidents than a little bit of alcohol.
Recently, somebody from our local DMV came to my school to speak to our driver education cl***es about drinking and driving. Out of curiosity, I dropped in to listen. He cited with great confidence that approximately 30% of all of our traffic accidents are directly related to alcohol.
Here's a question worth pondering. What about the other 70%? Could their cause be directly related to sobriety? Granted, there are a lot of people out there who can't drink and drive. On the other hand, some people can. Within reason and moderation.
To the best of my estimation, I probably drive better than 95% of the entire population of adult motorists today under sober conditions. If my BAC is at 0.08, I bet I can still drive better than 75% of them. And better than 50% of them at 0.10. And I'm speaking conservatively.
Alcohol is often called a "paradoxical" drug. This is because it works as both a stimulant and a depressant. When you first start drinking, it works as a stimulant. Then you hit a plateau, and the depressant phase kicks in.
This is where most people foul up. They go out and drink all night long and then decide to drive home during the depressant phase. Their reflexes are impaired. These are the people who should get busted for a DUI.
Here's the way I do it. I go out to a bar and enjoy three or four martinis with a good meal. Sometimes four. Then I drive home while I am still feeling the stimulant phase, when my reflexes are probably sharper than they would be if I was completely sober.
Disclaimer: Please don't follow such an example on my account. I don't know how well you drive.
Please don't let me be understood. I'm all in favor of a tough set of laws regulating excessive drinking and driving. And I favor the rigorous enforcement of these laws.
In far too many cases, chronic repeat DUI offenders have been permitted to continue driving scot free, resulting in the deaths and injuries of a lot of innocent people. You read about such cases all the time. This has to stop.
On the other hand, I do think the pendulum swings a bit too far sometimes on the side of severity. In a lot of states, you're not even allowed to drive your car to work after a first DUI conviction.
This is absurd. One DUI conviction should not be an impediment to anybody trying to make an honest living. I once read about a guy who was a loner, got a DUI conviction, and did not know anybody who could drive him to work. He became severly depressed, isolated himself in his studio apartment, and starved himself to death. What kind of rehabilitation is that?
In defense of leniency, I believe the most humane punishment for a first offender is sometimes one which was commonplace during a bygone era. A wink and a warning.
It sure worked out well for me back when I was a ripe and tender stud at the age of 22.
Arthur Claude Munyan, Sr.
Lars Eighner eigh...@io.com
In our last episode, <20030524051230.06893.00000...@mb-m19.aol.com>, the lovely and talented Mr Munyan broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams: No, it doesn't. Alcohol is a depressant. You have no idea what you are talking about.
No, it doesn't.
Then you hit a plateau, and the depressant phase kicks in.
You belong in a cage in that naval base in Cuba, along with all the other terrorists.
They should be thrown in jail for life on the first conviction and executed if any accident resulting in death or injury occurs. There is nothing "honest" about a living that includes driving while intoxicated.
Kept him off the road and saved the lives of the people he would have killed, didn't it?
Evidently not, since you say you still drive drunk.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eigh...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "Shhh! Be vewwy, vewwy quiet! I'm hunting Muswims!" -- Eunice Fudd
asterb ...@aol.comyewf (Asterbark)
Next time you do another edition of wife-beating is for-their-own-good, could you please hold onto that for release until about late July 3rd, early 4th? I will send you half my prize.
That I can do. Happy to help.
--
Aster
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com
Lars, please stop feeding the troll.q
--
Carl Fink c...@fink.to Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com
Lars, please stop feeding the troll.
--
Carl Fink c...@fink.to Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com
grape ...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe)
The behavioral change someone is trying to explain here has nothing to do with stimulation, butwith a releaxing of inhibitions. That should not be confused with stimulation.
Not everybody gets such a kick from champagne... Sometimes a drunk buzz is fueled by anticipation... all I generally anticipate is a sleepy feeling and a headache.
elleemenoh ...@aol.comhatespam (Elle)
You tell him, Lars! Go Lars GO!
:::waving pompoms::: Elle
Lars Eighner eigh...@io.com
In our last episode, <f1avcv0auspmobocfmgu7pj5qqqrq7i...@4ax.com>, the lovely and talented can...@thelast.mile broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams: Anyone who dirves a car after drinking any amount of alcohol under any circumstances belongs in prison. If you have to drink to tolerate your family, take a taxi.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eigh...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ We used to wonder where war lived, what it was that made it so vile.
And now we realize that we know where it lives, that it is inside ourselves.
- Albert Camus
mutigholland ...@aol.comawaaay (A cult of no)
Blowing a .09 after two beers would require that you weigh about 100 pounds and drink the two beers over the course of half an hour.
http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm Also, if you feel sober with a BAC of .09, you probably drink too much.
Yeah, you know...I'm not sure that's true. I think they show you the little ticket when it comes out of the machine.
Mmmm. I think we did this before, and we found out that a statistically significant portion of testees drove appreciably worse with a BAC approaching .08. Even if that's not illegal, that's certainly a point where you should seriously consider what business you really have driving. If you are unable to arrange your life, or control your drinking, such that you cannot avoid having to drive home from somewhere with a BAC in that range, you should probably seriously think about the role drinking plays in your life, and whether or not it might be causing you a problem.
Well, sure, because the word is out you drive drunk, and in a manner unsafe enough to attract the notice of law enforcement, and probably not just once, but regularly.
I understand in most jurisdictions you can petition the court for work related driving privileges.
Or, you could not drink to the point of intoxication and drive.
Yes, that's true.
I'm really quite skeptical that people who drink two beers represent any significant portion of DUI cases, unless they happened to chug them down immediately before driving.
--
."Besides invading other people's countries, and forcing them to do whatever he said, Alexander the Great was famous for something called the Gordian Knot."
mutigholland ...@aol.comawaaay (A cult of no)
Well, now that's just ridiculous.
--
."Besides invading other people's countries, and forcing them to do whatever he said, Alexander the Great was famous for something called the Gordian Knot."
h ...@interaccess.com (Gary S. Callison)
Unless those 'two beers' were 40-ouncers [1] or you only weigh 90lbs, this is physically impossible.
.09 = four or five beers. Finding an online blood alcohol chart is left as an exercise for the reader.
[1] Anybody remember the 2-liter bottles of Little Kings? Those things were so great. Mom calls up and starts getting all zealoty, you can say "No, Ma, I'm just having one or two..."
--
Huey
Erich oett...@qwest.net
A few drops of mouthwash should put someone in prison? How about the trace amount of alcohol in vanilla extract? Or the alcohol that can be detected in fresh baked bread?
... Erich
scub ...@aol.comatose (kay w)
Previously, candeh said, in small part: I'll admit I'm no drunk driving expert, but I don't see how a normal adult would score a .09 after two beers.
Unless it's one of the people on the local cop show, and the cameras show them knee-walking, falling over and barely able to sit up behind the wheel....*all* those people had only two beers. They say.
--
Gas up the dingy and go fishing with Fredo, because you are dead to me.
Dennis Miller, on France.
Address munged. AOL isn't necessarily comatose.
Mike m...@nospam.com
... or that which doesn't evaporate from adding beer to your pancake batter, or adding white wine to a sauce...
-- Mike --
Mike m...@nospam.com
On 24 May 2003 09:12:30 GMT, Mr Munyan wrote: This is, of course, why virtually all of the top racing drivers always have a few drinks just before the start of a big race, and chug another two during the mid-race pit-stop. At the Indianapolis race this weekend, the winner will take his first non-alcoholic drink - of milk - immediately after the race. Up until then, some drivers prefer tequila, while others go for pure American down-home bourbon whiskey. Certain wimpy drivers are rumored to prefer Bud Light. These drivers are easy to spot; it takes so much Bud Light to reach the State of Hightened Awareness that they have to exit the car for a potty break around lap 150.
-- Mike --
Lars Eighner eigh...@io.com
In our last episode, <vbevcvcntt2l2ppp51vjs4mqvfaqk91...@4ax.com>, the lovely and talented Cindybear broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams: Geez, I thought the idea was not swallow *any* mouthwash.
There is no reason people have to drink. No one has to drive after having a few drink. If you can't afford a taxi, you can't afford to drink -- it's just that simple.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eigh...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ War on Terrorism: The Difference Between Us and Them "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." -- Ann Coulter
Lars Eighner eigh...@io.com
In our last episode, <20030524143555.19446.00000...@mb-m10.aol.com>, the lovely and talented A cult of no broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams: If you can't afford a taxi, you can't afford to drink any place but at home.
There is no reason whatsoever that anyone ever has to drive after drinking.
If you are cheap drunken bastard, organize a designated-driver pool, There is simply no excuse for drinking and driving.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eigh...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ War on Terrorism: Okay, Unleash OUR Extreme Fundamentalists "... all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" --Jerry Falwell
Lars Eighner eigh...@io.com
In our last episode, <oetting-D51E45.12395624052...@news.uswest.net>, the lovely and talented Erich broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams: A few drops of mouthwash will not test positive for ingested alcohol.
If you are drinking vanilla extract - instead of cooking with it so the alcohol burns off or evaporates - you need an appointment with the prison psychiatrist.
Alcohol cannot be detected in people who have eaten fresh baked bread, and if the bread is driving a car, it should be arrested.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. You drunks will go to just about any extreme to try to justify your behavior.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eigh...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ Violence in the voice is often only the death rattle of reason in the throat.
- John Boyes
Erich oett...@qwest.net
Using mouthwash shortly before a breath test is a sure way to get a positive reading. You don't even have to swallow any. How about the dash of alcohol in a vanilla coke served by the local drive in? Your zero tolerance standard would put the kid who drank one in jail. Given good enough equipment, you can measure that level of alcohol.
That comment shows you are probably a 12 step program graduate. Because you couldn't handle alcohol in moderation you think nobody else can.
The truth is that drunk driving accidents are mostly cause by people who downed a six pack, not just a beer or two.
How about finding some scientific data showing m***ive numbers of accidents caused by people who only had a beer with dinner? That's the kind of data you need to justify your zero tolerance standard. You will have a real hard time finding it.
... Erich
Mary Shafer mil...@qnet.nospam.com
Maybe in some places, but in California you lose your teaching credential, usually for your first DUI and pretty much always for your second.
Mary
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Mary Shafer mil...@qnet.com Retired aerospace research engineer "The guy you don't see will kill you." BGEN Robin Olds, USAF
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com
I've had two beers since 1981 and I think you're way over-the-top.
--
Carl Fink c...@fink.to Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com
Lars Eighner eigh...@io.com
In our last episode, <oetting-595739.18051524052...@news.uswest.net>, the lovely and talented Erich broadcast on alt.fan.cecil-adams: Wrong. The product of alcohol metabolism is *acetone.* Unless you gargle with nail polish remover, your mouthwash will not affect the breatholizer.
Vanilla coke is made with vanilla syrup, not vanilla extract.
It doesn't contain any alcohol. I suppose you know more about 12-step programs than I do. You are the one defending drunk driving. You are the drunk.
Neither drinking nor driving are rights. You have to have a license to serve liquor and you have to have a license to drive a car. The burden of proof is on drinking drivers to show that their activity is as harmless as it seems to them in their twist, alcohol-impaired fantasies.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eigh...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "Do you have blacks, too?" --George W. Bush, to Brazilian Presitdent Fernando Henrique Cardoso
mutigholland ...@aol.comawaaay (A cult of no)
Okay, I will begin by citing the existence of drunk driving laws with legal limits on intoxication being BAC levels that translate into fairly good buzzes, implying that the impairment at lower levels of consumption is just not such a big deal.
--
."Besides invading other people's countries, and forcing them to do whatever he said, Alexander the Great was famous for something called the Gordian Knot."
Erich oett...@qwest.net
The folks who make breath test equipment confirm that mouthwash can cause false readings. In fact they have subjects gargle with mouthwash before using the devices to simulate a drunk subject.
I found an abstract to support this.
See J Anal Toxicol 1998 May-Jun;22(3):181-3 "Ethanol content of various foods and soft drinks and their potential for interference with a breath-alcohol test.
"Logan BK, Distefano S.
"Washington State Toxicology Laboratory, Department of Laboratory Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle 98134, USA.
"A variety of breads and soft drinks were tested and found to contain low concentrations of alcohol. The potential for these products to generate false readings on an evidential breath-alcohol instrument was evaluated. Alcohol-free subjects ingested these products and then provided breath samples into a DataMaster. It was found that breath samples provided immediately after consumption of some of these products, or with them still present in the mouth, did produce low levels of apparent breath alcohol, which may or may not be rejected as invalid by the breath-test instrument. If the subject swallowed or expectorated the food or beverage and then observed a 15-min deprivation period during which nothing was introduced into the mouth, the apparent effect was eliminated. These findings emphasize the need for the mandatory pretest alcohol-deprivation period and the benefits of duplicate breath sampling." You are the one claiming that any level of alcohol makes one a drunk. The fantasy is yours Lars. You seem to believe that alcohol is evil in any concentration. There is no science to support this claim. ... Erich
"Jason Quick" jsqu...@hotmail.com
AIUI, the metabolite of alcohol that shows up most in the breath is ammonia, followed by acetone.
Hm. You seem to be saying that anyone caught driving after consuming *any* alcohol (not necessarily drunk) is a drunk driver per se and deserves jail time - a life term IIRC. If that's your take, I'll gladly defend drunk driving, 'cause that's just plain ****ing crazy. If my understanding is at variance with your actual position, feel free to clarify.
Strictly speaking, drinking *is* a right. As I recall, there were some Constitutional amendments dealing with the legality of alcohol consumption.
That a Constitutional amendment was required to ban alcohol consumption, and then another to restore that ability, would seem to indicate that it *is* a right, just as it's our right to eat whatever we wish.
Yeah. But last I checked, there was no licensure for actual drinking. One only need be 21 years of age.
Interesting data point: The NHTSA cl***ifies an accident fatality as "alcohol-related" if someone *who isn't driving* is drinking, like a drunk pedestrian who gets hit by a car. Almost a third of all pedestrians killed in wrecks in 2000 were drunk.
They do the same if the p***engers are drunk. So if you're the stone-cold sober DD for the evening, and you run off the road into a bridge abutment or somesuch, that's cl***ified as "alcohol related." Further, according to NHTSA, drivers w/ a BAC of over 0.10 who were killed in wrecks were six times more likely to have at least one previous DUI conviction, which tends to buttress the argument that the habitual, hardcore drunks are the one who present the biggest problem and danger.
Suddenly, the problem's a bit more complex, hm?
Jason
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