Depression not Brain disorder!!!
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bcarl ...@3-cities.com (Ranier)
Depression is a disorder of the Mind. You may think this is just semantics, but it is not. Our whole body is involved in how our mind functions. Doctors and researchers focus too much on brain function, and overlook so often the endocrine, immune, reproductive and other systems. Fortunatly this is slowly changing. I read a study last week that showed people with depression have abnormal immune systems. In the pipeline are CRF antaganist that effect HPA axis. In time greater understanding of neurosteriods and other hormonal proteins will lead to other treatments for mood disorders. The popular monominergic theories expressed now are far from explaining the biochemistry of depression. Have others of you become as frustrated as I have in the fixation with the brain? The Mind is formed by processes in our whole bodies. Certainly our brains are a part of that, but not all. I'll be interested in your thaugths. Thanks!!
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
question for you? What happens when brain imaging scans are done that show a different chemical makeup/distribution in the brains of depressed people.
Paritcularly, this is the case with schizophrenia. Is this disease a chemical imbalance, while depression is not? The imaging scans distinctly show differing temperatures and activity in those that are depressed. Is there a simple explanation for this?
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Steve ...
"chemical" imbalance.
alt.support.depression.medication :
Fireborn firebor...@SPAMhotmail.com
I was just thinking of something I once heard - goes something like "No one ever changed anyone's mind by winning an arguement" It's interesting to think about...
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"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Walk beside me that we may be as one." - Ute Tribe
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
but what about my question?
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Steve ...
Fireborn firebor...@SPAMhotmail.com
The simple explanation is - certain forms of unipolar, and nearly all forms of bipolar depression are caused --at least partly-- by a chemical imbalance.
Happy?
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"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Walk beside me that we may be as one." - Ute Tribe
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
Happy? I ask questions because sometimes -albeit rarely :) - I do not know...it wasn't an arugument...do you think I have another agenda?
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Steve ...
Fireborn firebor...@SPAMhotmail.com
Oh, well in that case: Depression --contrary to what seems to be portrayed-- often begins with some traumatic event; be it death of a loved one, psycial violence/abuse, rape--almost exclusively women, extreme bullying in youth; or, a psychical trauma such as a blow to the head; or, of course, drug use. The latter two I mentioned can send one instantly into chaos, i.e. bipolar.
Bipolar from what I've been able to find out, is often the result of unipolar depression having gone untreated for a very, very long time.
The brain, no longer being able to handle the stress, takes a desperate action in order to survive; that is, creates/releases the appropriate chemicals to send the said unipolar threw the roof; and then, you have a bipolar.
These are of course only some theories I've read about - so don't take any of it as absolute fact; and anyone feel free to dispute it. Truth is
- no one really knows exactly what causes it. However, the most recent theory holds that's it's likely a combination of all three factors: chemically-related, emotional/trauma-related, and, psycially related.
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"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Walk beside me that we may be as one." - Ute Tribe
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
I understand to a point, but, just because I can't see the molecular structure of a table doesn't mean that it's not there and that the atoms are not in constant state of flux...brain imaging scans definitely show differences between the brains of depressed people and "normal? people. Talk therapy isn't going to change that.
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Steve ...
Fireborn firebor...@SPAMhotmail.com
"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Walk beside me that we may be as one." - Ute Tribe
jake inva...@invalid.com
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:55:25 GMT, Fireborn No..that is not an explanation..simple or otherwise..
that is the facile Mickey Mouse description...an interpretation of complex genetic..biological and sociological events based on no evidence whatsoever..
Here it is in a nutshell http://www.astonishedhead.com/images/OVOID.swf you confuse correlation with causation..and descriptions with explanations..
Simply repeating Drug company blurb from TV commericials wont hack it..and certainly does not begin to address Steves question..
I thought you were trying to establish happiness derives from a pill?
you mean there might be other reasons than a mutaed chemical soup for happinness and unhappiness?
maybe there is hope for you yet..
__ "When society turns a blind eye to the dangers of drugs and rushes to embrace a pharmaceutical cure for nearly every condition, there is almost no end to the harm that may result".
Thomas.J.Moore
jake inva...@invalid.com
you have seen dynamic scans of clients undergoing psychotherapy have you?
could you cite your sources?
__ "In its recent infatuation with symptomatic, push-button remedies, psychiatry has lost its way not only intellectually but spiritually and morally. Even when it is not actually doing damage to the people it is supposed to help,??¦it is encouraging among doctors and patients alike the fraudulent and dangerous fantasy that life's every p***ing 'symptom' can be clinically diagnosed and, once diagnosed, alleviated if not eliminated by pharmacological intervention." Paul R. McHugh Professor of Psychiatry, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
Treatment of Depression Bridging the 21st Century Edited by Myrna M. Weissman, Ph.D.
that's just one...there are numerous others.
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Steve ...
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
"The text provides a number of thoughtful chapters on the nature of depression and its neurobiological and psychological underpinnings, as well as up-to-date reviews of the latest thinking with respect to treatment and prevention. It is a masterful compilation, bringing together contributions from the top people in the field. It is the kind of text that anyone interested in the nature and treatment of depression ought to possess and it both reflects the tremendous progress over the last several decades and points the way to more progress to come."-Steven D. Hollon, Ph.D., Professor of Psychology, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennesse
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Steve ...
jake inva...@invalid.com
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:37:07 GMT, Fireborn neither neurologists nor anyone else can provide such things..
there is no evidence for the chemical imbalance.."theory" a kind of quasi-religious belief held in the face of the facts..
someone unkind might call this a delusion...
I guess you missed the thread where this is being discussed?
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:24:03 +0100, Citizen the idea of "chemical balance" and "imbalance" is largely a marketing myth..
As stated there are no tests for such levels..or even a clear idea of what a normal level might be..
In extremis..serotonin syndrome is detected by its effects..
However..having said that..there are indirect ways Research implicating the serotonergic system Several researchers have used different methods to demonstrate serotonergic system dysfunctions in subjects who self-injure. Since it isn't possible to measure serotonin levels directly, researchers have to find substances whose levels correlate to serotonin levels.
Two commonly used techniques are measuring serotonin metabolites (breakdown products) in spinal fluid and measuring the number of imipramine binding sites on platelets.
Lower levels of metabolites or fewer platelet imipramine binding sites indicate low levels of serotonin in the brain.
Another very useful technique involves measuring how levels of a hormone called prolactin change in response to administration of a drug called d-fenfluramine.
A blunted response indicates decreased levels of presynaptic serotonin. This method gives more precise information about neurotransmitter function.
__ "When society turns a blind eye to the dangers of drugs and rushes to embrace a pharmaceutical cure for nearly every condition, there is almost no end to the harm that may result".
Thomas.J.Moore
Corey noem...@noemail.com
I understand your point that the thought process is influenced by chemicals outside the brain. But I wouldn't call the combination of brain + body = the mind.
It seems more likely that depression leads to a weakend immune system, than the other way around.
But don't thoughts arise from within the brain? If so, it's only the chemistry within the brain that affects thoughts.
"Darren" not.feeding...@m-bots.sorry
Depression could also be caused by lack of parental support. Ie; Always nagging on your kids about the bad things they do and are.
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jake inva...@invalid.com
Sorry..maybe I am unclear..I meant do you have a link to pics or research using PET scans etc..to compare "normals" with depressed patients recieving psychotherapy..I am not aware of any such research..
The research funded so far tends to be snapshots in time of drugged patients compared with undrugged ones ..so its hardly suprising there is a difference..
there is no compelling reason to ***ume these snapshots relate to mental or emotional states..or cognitive functioning..
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???All policymakers must be vigilant to the possibility of research data being manipulated by corporate bodies and of scientific colleagues being seduced by the material charms of industry.
Trust is no defence against an aggressively deceptive corporate sector.??™ Editorial (2000). Resisting smoke and spin. Lancet 355, 1197.
jake inva...@invalid.com
well thats the heart of the matter isnt it?
How depression is concieved..
mind-brain connections..
and what "underpins" what..
It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind.
The First approached the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a wall!" The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, "Ho! what have we here So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a spear!" The Third approached the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a snake!" The Fourth reached out an eager hand, And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," quoth he; "Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a tree!" The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said:"E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a fan!" The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Than, seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a rope!" And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong!
John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
nope.. just pics from texts or abstracts I've read or referenced for work I did when I studied abnormal psychology and physiological psychology.
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Steve ...
"Steve" ihates...@noemail.com
Universities offer entire courses in mind-body dualism...it's being going on since Plato and continues even today.
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Steve ...
jake inva...@invalid.com
this article touches on it..
I doubt much has been done..
http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/5_15_99/fob2.htm nb..
This study using PET scans shows as do so many others ..that Prozac is no more effective than sugar pills..
Volume 155, Number 20 (May 15, 1999) <<Back to Contents Depression, sadness yield brain link By B. Bower Major depression includes not only feelings of intense sadness and despair but also a wandering, indecisive train of thought. Distinct brain areas involved in emotion and attention together foster both depression and ordinary bouts of sadness, according to a new study.
Specific changes in these neural regions accompany recovery from major depression, whether achieved with an antidepressant drug or placebo pills, says a team of neuroscientists led by Helen S. Mayberg of the Rotman Research Institute in Toronto.
"The negative influence of depressed mood on attention is probably due to functional connections between these two brain regions," Mayberg says. "Successful treatment, including placebo use, alters those connections." Mayberg's group first took positron emission tomography (PET) scans of eight women resting and after recalling a sad personal experience. The PET scans measured blood-flow changes in their brains, an indirect sign of boosts or drops in brain-cell activity. None of the women or their family members had been diagnosed with mood disorders.
In a second trial, the researchers took PET scans of eight men before and after successful treatment for major depression. Over 6 weeks, four men had improved after taking the antidepressant drug fluoxetine (Prozac); the rest had rallied in response to pills that they thought might be antidepressants but that contained no active ingredients.
When the women recalled sad experiences, blood-flow surged in a pair of the inner brain structures that regulate emotional responses and declined in two parts of the brain's outer layer previously linked to attention, the team reports in the May American Journal of Psychiatry.
The men who had recovered from depression showed unusually high activity in the two attention areas and low activity in the emotion areas.
Before recovery, however, the depressed men had exhibited marked overactivity in only one of the two emotion-related areas characteristic of brief sadness in the women. Further research will examine more closely the processes that occur during depression, Mayberg says.
The findings suggest that a brain circuit incorporating emotion and attention "offers a plausible converging point" for antidepressant effects of drugs and psychotherapy, remark psychiatrist Charles B.
Nemeroff of Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta and his coworkers in an accompanying editorial.
Researchers haven't yet explored brain function in the substantial minority of depressed people who don't benefit from treatment, Mayberg adds.
References: Mayberg, H.S., et al. 1999. Reciprocal limbic-cortical function and negative mood: Converging PET findings in depression and normal sadness. American Journal of Psychiatry 156(May):675.
Nemeroff, C.B., C.D. Kilts, and G.S. Berns. 1999. Functional brain imaging: Twenty-first century phrenology or psychobiological advance for the millennium? American Journal of Psychiatry 156(May):671.
Sources: Helen S. Mayberg Rotman Research Institute Baycrest Centre 3560 Bathurst Street Toronto, Ontario M6A 2E1 Canada Charles B. Nemeroff Emory University School of Medicine Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Atlanta, GA 30322 From Science News, Vol. 155
jake inva...@invalid.com
On what grounds?
It would be an exceptional personality indeed..that was not depressed by cycling through a continuing and never-ending stream of new infections..
__ "When society turns a blind eye to the dangers of drugs and rushes to embrace a pharmaceutical cure for nearly every condition, there is almost no end to the harm that may result".
Thomas.J.Moore
zigggurat z...@microsoft.com
Shawnee - what happened to you, when you took Paxil, was a chemical imbalance.
so you are talking out of your arse.
m~
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zigggurat z...@microsoft.com
hey yeah... i like that, its really wise. kind of zen......
m~
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|\ _,,,---,,_ ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ HTTP 503: Too Busy |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL
jake inva...@invalid.com
yeah..and will still be going on long after we are gone..
:>)
--
???All policymakers must be vigilant to the possibility of research data being manipulated by corporate bodies and of scientific colleagues being seduced by the material charms of industry.
Trust is no defence against an aggressively deceptive corporate sector.??™ Editorial (2000). Resisting smoke and spin. Lancet 355, 1197.
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