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"celticbhoy60" johnd_cass...@hotmail.com
Celtic and Rangers have a mega fan base from all over the world but we are being stifled by playing in Scotland. I know we have had this before but we really need to be looking at playing in a higher standard of league and I mean the English premier. Celtic and Rangers would have no problem finishing in the top 6 and we would get a much better TV revenue and attract a better standard of player. I not sure about this North Atlantic league ( or what ever it's called) I just don't think this is what we should be aiming at. We deserve much better and it comes no better than the English Premier.
You'll Never Walk Alone ICQ Number.12963142
"Moody Marco" ma...@zoom.co.uk
Agreed with you except 1 thing - there are many better than the English Premier. Italy? Spain? Germany? Brazil?
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"celticbhoy60" johnd_cass...@hotmail.com
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True, but can't see Celtic and Rangers moving to these countries, Moody, can you? But for now England is our better option.
"Moody Marco" ma...@zoom.co.uk
I agree, I was just pointing out that the Premiership isn't the best league in the world, regardless of what the English would have us believe.
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"bob" bobs...@nowhere.org
Agreed, much of the football we see in scotland is boring and predictable.
-bob
"celticbhoy60" johnd_cass...@hotmail.com
Exactly, we are just going through the motions here and we seldom have to break sweat but I see nothing changing. Sad.
a_NOSPAMmulh ...@yahoo.co.uk (Andy Mulhern)
On Fri, 4 May 2001 10:25:20 +0100, "celticbhoy60" On the contrary, we are doing as much damage to scottish football as scottish football does to us....
The police wouldn't allow it. The FA wouldn't allow it. UEFA wouldn't allow it. The English clubs would never vote for it. Why should one of them give up there place to make room for us?
It is by no means certain we would finish in the top 6. I wouldn't fancy either ours or Rangers chances against Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool, Leeds. The OF would have to play with consistancy at a much higher level to achieve a top 6 finish, and recent results in europe have shown that we cannot do that. Also, the guaranteed Champions League place would be out the window and we would be stuck (***uming we qualified) with the Mickey Mouse UEFA cup (copyright Rangers fans before they get dumped out of the CL every year).
Unless of course you play in Spain. Or Italy. And why do we deserve much better? We are helping to ruin the scottish game rather than helping to build it up. We deserve everything we get.....
martyc ...@hotmail.com (Marty)
On Fri, 4 May 2001 10:25:20 +0100, "celticbhoy60" It's never gonna happen so there's not really much point going on about it.
Marty
"Paul McDonald" p...@gcal.ac.uk
I couldn't disagree more. It's obvious that we would rake in more TV revenue and attract more skillfull players if we were in the premiership, but so what ? A more skilled player doesn't mean a better quality player.
There's more to being a quality player than being skillfull. Look at Paul McStay, he wasn't a HUGELY skillful player but he was top quality, cos he played his best in every game. If he was Paulo McStaycovic only playing for us cos he was earning upwards of ??40,000 a weak, he could be a skilfull as you like, but without the dedication he'll never be a quality player.
And besides, selling our Scottish roots for more TV money seems like a bum deal to me. There's more quality in the SPL than people make out. If Livingston can come through the ranks of the lower divisions as quickly as they did, then who says another team can't come through the SPL ranks as quickly and become a third major team.
"Tony" interFl...@hotmail.com
In what ways are Celtic and Rangers 'helping to ruin the Scottish game'?
"bob" bobs...@nowhere.org
Another aspect which I suppose should be touched on relates to what DM said this week. He said that it is becoming increasingly difficult to attract top players to the club if a premiership club are also interested. This applies equally to celtic.
Rangers and Celtic therefore have to pay over the odds in terms of signing on fee and weekly wages to attract these players.
-bob
"bob" bobs...@nowhere.org
Celtic allow an incompetent former director to hold a place in the SFA as a reward for changing sides when they were deposed.
-bob
"bob" bobs...@nowhere.org
If a team can gain promotion many times so rapidly doesn't that indicate a lack of quality opponents?
-bob
"Tony" interFl...@hotmail.com
A third major team?
Celtic have an average attendance of 59,349. Rangers average is 47,618.
Hearts and Aberdeen are 12,585 & 12,383 respectively. Livingston, in their Championship winning year, have an average of 3,418, and unless they change their stadium, the highest they will ever achieve is 10,000.
There is no third major team.
Andy unavaila...@mail.com
Not only that, but we get less in transfer fees. We're lucky to get half what a player is worth.
Andy
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Andy unavaila...@mail.com
I think that Livingston are only the first ever team to rise so far, since the league started (possibly since the premier but possibly in all time). That doesn't bode well for another team to rise up the ranks.
Andy
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"Moody Marco" ma...@zoom.co.uk
Very true. We keep hearing ??10 million for VB, no doubt he'd be ??20 million if he was playing on the continent, and probably ??30 million if he was playing in England based on the fact the English pay WAY over the odds for everyone. It's fair enough though, since if the player is playing a lower standard league, his value is naturally lower.
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"Old Father Tim" the.egg.ti...@the.end.of.tim
Moody Marco wrote ...
Brazilian league football is a shambles.
oft
Andy unavaila...@mail.com
I'd agree that it's understandable for us to get less, but not so much less. I'd expect to get 2/3's to 3/4's. It's hard to test of course, because we don't have many players leave here, and then be bought elsewhere (I'll be interested to see of Viduka leaves leeds).
Andy
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"celticbhoy60" johnd_cass...@hotmail.com
Yes but will they stay up or is the first division their standard?
a_NOSPAMmulh ...@yahoo.co.uk (Andy Mulhern)
They are helping to ruin the game in the same way nearly every other premier league club is helping to ruin the game. The have adopted short term strategies that have a) alienated supporters from there clubs b) almost wiped out effective youth development and c) helped put in place a system that stifles any ambition (with the odd exception) among lower league clubs.
The point is that Celtic and Rangers have to accept there responsibilites to the scottish game, and not be allowed to bail out because they are the big fish in the small pond.
"Tony" interFl...@hotmail.com
So it's not just Celtic and Rangers then? You are putting the blame on the majority of Premier League clubs?
The term 'short term strategies' is rather vague, do you mean buying in a lot of overseas players at the expense of homegrown talent? Or do you mean the way the SPL is set up, which is causing clubs in lower divisions going to the wall?
Celtic and Rangers have responsibilities to their supporters. Their combined support is bigger than the rest of Scottish football put together, and they must strive to be successful on a European stage. They should do everything in their power to play in a more competitive League. It won't happen in Scotland where the average attendance in Division 3 is 471, Division 2 is 952 and Division 1 is 2,045. The average in the SPL is 16,047. Celtic's is 59,349, while St. Johnstone's is 5,415. No matter what the OF do to help these clubs financially they will never sustain a challenge to Celtic or Rangers. The OF should not feel responsible for clubs like East Stirlingshire who have an average gate of 261. Two hundred and sixty one people. If the OF somehow manage to compete in a different, more competitive League, then Scottish football would also benefit. The attendances are that bad just now with the OF in the League, then maybe they would improve if clubs thought they had a chance to win or get to a final. You mention 'stifling ambitions', I cannot accept that clubs with a support the size of a small wedding should hold back Celtic from fulfilling their ambitions.
"Moody Marco" ma...@zoom.co.uk
According to the last League League table (if that makes sense), Germany was the best league in the world, then Brazil, then Spain, Italy & France (dunno in what order those 3 came). Then it was the Premiership in 6th. Scotland was 10th or 12th (I think).
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a_NOSPAMmulh ...@yahoo.co.uk (Andy Mulhern)
I thought that was obvious. I used the word "helping" which does tend to indicate there are others involved. Whats your point? I never blamed the OF solely for the troubles in the scottish game, I said they have played there part in ruining it. The difference is, none of the other clubs have the luxury of being able to walk away from the league.
Both. I have no objection to quality foreign players coming to the clubs, its the mediocre highly paid ones that I object to. It stifles youth development and has been bad for the game - and especially the international team. The league structure is also a joke, and has contributed to teams going to the wall. The have also sold out big style to Live TV. The money may be welcome, but not at a price that shafts the fans week in week out. We could also throw in the ridiculously high ticket prices. Spiralling wage costs may have led to this, but whose fault is that? The players for being greedy in there wage demands, or the clubs for being stupid enough to pay it? And can you honestly say you've seen a real increase in the quality of football since the early nineties when all the money flooded into the game? I can't (although this season has been good ;) ) My point is, Tony, that if the clubs - Rangers and Celtic included -
actually looked beyond the next couple of years, and put into place effective youth development, restructured the league, and tried to bring more fans into the game (at all levels, not just the SPL), the scottish game might be in a better position to do well in Europe, and the international team might actuallyl be worth watching.
I cite France as an example. 10 years ago there game was in the Doldrums, and average attendances were 10000. They sorted themselves out and implemented a youth system that gave young players a chance.
10 years on, attendances have more than doubled, and they are world and european champions. I'm not saying scotland will ever do it to this level, but it shows what can be done if you look beyond the short term.
Agreed, but also to the scottish game. Like I said, we can't just jump ship because things have got tough. If we do, then we have sold out big time. I would rather see Celtic and Rangers help revive the scottish game, rather than just deciding its served its purpose, and bailing out.
Nearly every country in the world has dominant teams. I'll give you Holland, Portugal and Turkey as some examples. Galatasaray have an average attendane of just 13 thousand. Rosenborg just 10K. Dynamo Kiev just 13K. Spartak Moscow just 14K. Sturm Graz just 10K. None of these teams play in what can be considered strong leagues, or have m***ive attendances, yet they all manage more European success than any scottish teams. Perhaps it has something to do with there youth development systems?
Not if it means killing the scottish game stone dead. I would rather they worked with it to improve it.
And your point is? The league can be restructured to bring in teams from outwith the current setup, and let those who have no ambition find there level. And you will probably find that 2000 for a lower division league isn't that bad given the size of country we are. Its certainly comparable with the lower league in Holland.
I fail to see the relevance. There are always dominant teams....
I'm not talking about helping financially, I'm talking about restructuring the game from top to bottom to attract fans back to the game and to enable clubs to bring through decent young players.
You miss the point. Celtic and Rangers have an obligation to the scottish game as a whole, not to individual clubs. I fully agree that clubs of this size and with no ambition should be allowed to find there level outwith the top divisions. The league structure should be opened up to allow other clubs entry into the top leagues. The attendances of ICT, Ross County, Peterhead and Elgin all show that there are bigger clubs with more ambition that are being denied the chance to play in the scottish leagues.
And I cant agree with any argument that the scottish game would somehow be better without the OF. It would lose not only the m***ive travelling support that they bring, but also the vast majority of the TV money. There is no way Sky or any other company would pay money to show scottish games if the OF weren't involved.
PS attendances aren't bad at all for the size of country we are. Per head of population, Scotland is 2nd in Europe for supporters. even without the OF's influence the other clubs are well supported.
"Tony" interFl...@hotmail.com
Rangers and Celtic had to pay the ridiculous wages which the market demands, to even stand still in European terms. We can't purchase the A-list of world football, and paying over the odds to bring quality players to Scotland is a fact of life. The main reason Rangers won nine-in-a-row (apart from Celtic's injury problems) was because they went out and bought quality overseas players who were better than the Scots players. Celtic had to react. They couldn't wait on a lengthy, hit and miss youth development strategy, or they would have been left even further behind. They should have spent a percentage on academies and youth development, but the reality is that bringing over priced, superior players in, won trophies. Both clubs are now actively pursuing youth development along with buying ready made players.
The quality of football since the early nineties, has increased. The players who have graced Scottish football in that time include...Larsson, Laudrup, Di Canio, Viduka, Gascoigne, Cadete, Van Hooijdonk, Klos...etc..etc. The quality and entertainment value of Scottish football has benefited from bringing in these players, and all of the exciting and prominent Leagues throughout Europe has seen the same.
They are putting into place youth development. This part about restructuring the League and bringing more fans into the game, is where we disagree. No matter what the structure of the Scottish League is, the OF will battle it out. No matter what the OF do, the ambitious clubs you mentioned like Caley Thistle, Elgin..etc will be no more than small clubs. The gap is just too big between the OF and the rest. What can Rangers and Celtic do to help Cowdenbeath double their support to 600? And how will this benefit anyone except Cowdenbeath's treasurer?
I'm all with you on clubs starting youth systems, but your original point was that the OF were doing as much damage to Scottish football as Scottish football does to us. If the two clubs are beginning academies, youth development schemes, bringing support to every ground they visit, as well as giving Scotland a profile in Europe, what more do you want them to do?
France has an 18 team League where at least 8 of those teams has an average attendance over 20,000. That's the kind of League I want Celtic to compete in. France is competitive, Scotland is not, and regardless of what Rangers and Celtic do to support other Scottish clubs, they will not come up with eight strong clubs.
As I stated above, the game in Scotland cannot be revived to such an extent that sees a competitive League with similar sized clubs.
It's not just the domination, it's also how dominating the OF are in Scotland.Potugal is probably nearest to the uncompetitve Scottish League, but even then their biggest club Benfica, has an average gate of 30,000, half Celtic's. Holland has an 18 team League, with 4 teams averaging over 25,000 and another 9 over 10,000. Turkey's biggest average gate is 24,000.
Celtic and Rangers are far bigger in terms of gates than any club in these countries. The gap in Scotland is too big, and the OF should be competing with comparable clubs.
Galatasaray have an Yes, that is for individual clubs to implement, which the OF are doing. I think we have gone of the point here though, I don't think the OF are hindering Scottish football, in fact I believe the opposite. It isn't just about yearly forays into Europe, to me it's about an exciting, competitive League. And, again I repeat, no matter what the OF do the other clubs in Scotland will not challenge their dominance in any sustainable way.
The contest for the League can't be improved without unpopular club mergers (which I would be against anyway).
To me it doesn't matter about the size of the country. It's the size of the clubs that count.
The relevance is, there is NO competition outwith the OF. There is NO sizeable League in Europe, even the ones you mentioned, where there is such a gap between the top two clubs and the rest.
That still won't make the League an exciting proposition. There is no amount of restructuring which can bring through a club to continually challenge the OF.
That is not the crux of the matter, and is irrelevant. Using that criteria means Celtic can call themselves biggest club in the world. The whole point of why I want Celtic to find a more competitive League, is that the League is a two horse race from the start. The gap between the OF and the rest, in terms of crowds and trophies won throughout history, is bigger than anywhere in Europe. They need a bigger stage, and thankfully the powers at both clubs recognise this also.
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