Being tested for adult ADHD, fingers crossed....
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shift ...@yahoo.com (Jason)
I'm taking the tova tests next week. I've been off of caffeine for a week and am having a fit at work trying to concentrate or remember.
Just listening to people small-talk makes me squirm. Doctor said I was 74% positive according to the paper tests, but the important test is next week. It's the one that decides whether I take drugs for this, with Adderall as his first choice.
Is this all really worth it? Are there people out there whose lives are transformed because of some legalized speed? I'm worried about side effects, addiction and so forth. Plus, I'm a 20-year video game addict -- won't I fly through these tests anyway?
Funny thing is, up until a few months ago I thought ADD only affected American children who ate too much sugar and watched too much TV. Long story, but now I am being tested for ADHD. If I get a "positive" and the drugs work it will explain so much about my life. I think I would ball up and cry like a baby. But I am a doubting Thomas for my own sake.
I'd appreciate any input, feedback, anecdotes, science. I'll be sure to update this thread with my results next week.
Jason
Morph Grrl some...@nowhereelse.com
No you won't. I thought I did excellent on meds when I did the TOVA.
(except that I knew that I messed up on section in the audio part of the test). Imagine to my surprise that it showed that my attention span was still abnormal, even on meds! Curious to know how my attention span is off of them though...
Good you shouldn't accept everything for face value. Many of us in this group took a while before we allowed ourselves to be diagnosed as ADHD (even though we had family members diagnosed as ADHD as well).
Without the correct diagnosis you can't work with yourself up to your full potential so it is important to be diagnosed correctly.
Good luck and you will see that meds can be an important part in helping you in your daily life. You may have to try different meds before you find the right one. I suggest reading up on different meds so that you can be aware of side effects. Also it can help you pick out those with the least amount of side effects. You will be also able to tell if the doctor starts you on too high of a dose, etc. But don't ***ume that meds are all you need. I still need alot of behavioral therapy. In fact in my area they will be offering a workshop for ADHD adults (for $10 a week). I do hope that enough people sign up so it can be offered. In fact I'm turning in my signed sheet that shows my interest to up the chance that the program will be offered. It will cover every aspect of living with ADHD.
But as soon as I get a job that pays enough I'm getting a regular therapist.
MorphGrrl
"imor" theultm...@hotmail.com
But wait what is the significance of these test results... if it is never researched that all people with ADHD perform worse on these tests.
And the results vary a lot every time.
Take a cactus and place it in your chair and sit on it, then you will definetely perform worse right?
Give a 6 year old child an icecream as a reward if he or she tries to perform well and the next time don't give him any rewards...
Mark D Morin mdmp...@nospsmgwi.net
It's impossible to test ALL people of any condition. You can't test ALL people with diabetes under ALL conditions so ***ess the reliability of a fasting blood sugar test. What you can do is sample the population and using the science of statistics compute estimates of what the larger population looks like.
The same has been done with the TOVA and all other psychometric tests.
Sensitivities and specificities have been computed and while it is true that they are not 100%, they are as accurate, if not more so, than many medical tests.
Would you go ahead with an upper GI series to diagnose an ulcer? Most people would. The specificity of that test is about 20% (meaning--in one in five cases, it will be something other than an ulcer) and the sensitivity is in the same magnitude (meaning in about one in five cases a positive finding will be found when it should have been found in all five).
The sensitivity and specificity of the TOVA is higher than that. Taken in the context of converging evidence from other test data and you come up with pretty convincing evidence for or against a diagnosis.
I'll see if I can find the article that compared the sensitivity and specificity of psych tests with that of medical tests. It's been a while and i'm not sure where it is filed.
==================================================== I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.
Lance Armstrong Cyclist and cancer survivor http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Mark D Morin mdmp...@nospsmgwi.net
My use of a comparable test would suggest that you may be in for a surprise. I've had kids and adults who excell at video games take the Vigil (a test similar to the TOVA) and be shocked at their results.
There is a learning curve however--repeated exposure to the test improves results. You get that with ADHD and non ADHD people tho.
==================================================== I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.
Lance Armstrong Cyclist and cancer survivor http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
m ...@earthlink.net (Emma Anne)
These meds are considerably less addictive than caffeine. If you take them as prescribed, addiction potential is vanishingly small. You are far more likely to have trouble remembering to take them.
I haven't taken them, but the word is they are exceedingly boring.
Nothing like a video game.
Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom. I think nearly all of us thought that, or similar, until we researched it for ourselves.
Good. You should be convinced by your own reason.
Good luck.
nknisley mothwrang...@hotmail.com
If you haven't already done so, I highly recommend that you read "Driven to Distraction" by Hallowell and Ratey. It is probably *the* book on ADHD, although some of the information in it is now somewhat dated (It was published in '94 and AFAIK, hasn't been revised, which is too bad because knowledge about and treatment of ADHD has advanced quite a bit since then.) You might also want to check out this article [you may need to register with Medscape to read the articles, but registration is free.] which IMO gives a good overview of adult ADHD: "Adult ADHD: Recent Advances in Diagnosis and Treatment" http://www.medscape.com/viewprogram/2054 Good luck!
Nancy Unique, like everyone else
Katz Heitmann katz...@mindspring.com
Hey me too I hate small talk and I can barely sit perfectly still most of the time. I'd say you oughta write everything down eat less sugar exercise more and you should feel better. Why I know this I grew up with ADD so what was it like for you?
tova is really ****ing boring extremely boring. The meds sometimes help alot. You can still tank things but you won't tank as often.
I was too until I saw the nimh data on ADD. have a look at this http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhdbrain.cfm When I saw that I believed ADD existed. It's good you are a doubting Thomas. I hope medication works for you better than it does for me.
Dexedrine damn nearly made me lose my mind. Concerta made my insomnia worse. Paxil caused diarrea. Strattera made me vomit and fall asleep.
Well don't let it bother you all kinda crap was going on then. If you have it then medication might help you a great deal or it might do nothing. The nonmedical stuff like coping strategies are great.
My email doesn't work right now If you ask me coping strategies are more useful than the damn meds.
Katz Heitmann katz...@mindspring.com
And ye'll be pulling the damn cactus quils out yer *** and cursing imor for sure now. Unless you are a masicist I think the cactus is a bad idea. Besides it's hard to remove things like that from your own ***.
At least you'll learn who yer real friends are. :) Maybe sitting on a cactus will build character I don't know I don't think I need anymore character.
Well the tova is mind numbingly dull the target doesn't explode when you hit it or anything fancy. It's supposed to be boring so you'll miss things.
Katz Heitmann katz...@mindspring.com
I took the tova and it was boring extremely boring.
shift ...@yahoo.com (Jason)
Hey, maybe I won't do so well on tova as I thought. I've never played any boring video games for more than 30 seconds! :) Thanks for the link with some very good reading. Feel free to share some of your coping strategies, as I'm sure I'll need them whether or not I end up on meds.
Jason
Morph Grrl some...@nowhereelse.com
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 07:19:18 GMT, Katz Heitmann Yep it sure is boring. I also learned that I tend to tune out more when I have sounds to be tested on/with (but I also can get more distracted by it depending on the audio input). Whereas with visual input I can focus on it more easily. I don't know if it's because I react more p***ively with sounds (unless it's an annoying sound), or what. However, I can tell if something is off key, etc.
One interesting thing I found with the Paxil, my hypersensitivity to sounds evened out a bit.
MorphGrrl
kaplo ...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)
So what books do you recommend that are more current. Everything I've found seems to be 1994-1997 or so.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encomp***erve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
kaplo ...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)
What exactly is this test? Is it something I should look for?
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encomp***erve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Mark D Morin mdmp...@nospsmgwi.net
it's not something that is available online or to the general public--in order to buy it you are supposed to demonstrate certain credentials.
I have a couple of others that I use but the basic principle is the same--you sit in front of a computer screen, numbers and/or letters are flashing and are instructed to hit the space bar whenever a particular letter flashes. This goes on for a few seconds less than forever then you are asked to push the space bar when a certain letter flashes but only if another letter came first. The typical mode of administrationis visual but there's also an auditory format. The computer records reaction time, errors of omission and comission, and hits.
==================================================== I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.
Lance Armstrong Cyclist and cancer survivor http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
"DeChiera" OperaLo...@att.net
Mark, This sounds like the test my oldest daughter was given when we were attempting to diagnosis her LDisorder.
I'm curious, does each computer screen have a little number up in one of the corners in some kind of sequential order?
Leah aka
Mark D Morin mdmp...@nospsmgwi.net
Both of the versions I have have simply show the stimulus in the middle of the screen (the CalCAP uses numbers, letters, and symbols; the VIGIL uses just letters-the default is K then AK but anything can be programmed in). I forget what the default delay is, maybe one per second. The problem with changing any of the defaults is that the norms are based on the default conditions.
The stimuli are presented quasi randomly (i.e., not random but unless you've got some pretty good computing power in your head, you wont see the pattern). Personally, I haven't used the TOVA or the Connor's Continuous Performance Test but I understand that they work on the same principle.
FWIW, while the sensitivity of these tests isn't bad, the specificity leaves something to be desired. That is, it's going to pick up deviations from the norm but won't tell you why.
==================================================== I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.
Lance Armstrong Cyclist and cancer survivor http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
"DeChiera" OperaLo...@att.net
I think it's the same test. Connor's Survey ??? I think that's what they called it. That blue form, one for the teacher and another for the parent was sent home and by looking at the results, it seemed attn deficit might have been the answer for her large discrepancy between aptitude and achievement. I took her to a person who specializes in attn deficit for testing.
She was placed in front of a computer screen where she was to tell the person in the room when she saw something or maybe it was hit a button on the keyboard, it was about 9 years ago. Anywho ... whatever was happening, it was not keeping my daughters attention and she started whining and schirming around ... the wierd part was, she kept mentioning numbers that were missing to the tester "hey, you skipped ..." and "where is number ...".
Afterwards I apologized as I didn't think they had been able to test her ...
but it seems, despite her not wanting to pay attention to whatever the program was set up for ... she was paying attention to some screen number.
Hence my question, about a numbered screen ...
The end result was she was deemed not to have attn deficit because of her attention to that number sequence ... does this make any sense to you.
Leah aka
Mark D Morin mdmp...@nospsmgwi.net
sort of. Personally, if she wasn't engaging in the task as it was intended (i.e., responding to the stimuli), I wouldn't have made any conclussions about ADHD one way or the other. It's appropriate to raise questions that are stimulated by additional testing behavior but unless there are norms for attending to the sequence, you don't know what this means.
Computerized tests like that are a very small piece of my testing.
I've seen times when those results fit in very nicely with all the rest of the data (either confirming or refuting ADHD) and there are other times where the test scores on that test are outliers to all the rest of the test data. It's really great when the computerized tests data are consistent with the rest of the testing--there's an "AHA" feeling that both the child and the parent (I usually have a parent in the room throughout the testing) get when they think about that test that they just dont get with the others.
************** Life is the ultimate teacher, but it is usually through experience and not scientific research that we discover its deepest lessons ... We are here for a single purpose: to grow in wisdom and learn to love better. We can do this through loosing as well as winning, by having and by not having, by succeeding or by failing. All we need to do is show up openhearted for cl***.
Rachel Naomi Remen, M.D.
Kitchen Table Wisdom http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
"DeChiera" OperaLo...@att.net
Can't say that I got one of those "AHA" feelings, but nevertheless my oldest daughter is doing well in school despite her disabilities. She has learned to advocate for herself in regards to cl***room accommodations, which is a big step as far as I'm concerned. I don't know if we will ever get an appropriate diagnosis for how her and my husbands brain processing works but it sure has helped peak my curiosity in all the latest findings.
Thank you for explaining those testings ... perhaps when my daughter is older, we will take her again as she will be able to better understand treatment options for herself and make choices based on what she believes her needs are. My husband has always stayed away from the daily medications for himself and our daughters for learning/attention differences, so we made choices accordingly.
I really like your new signature ... yes, life is the ultimate teacher ...
Leah aka
nknisley mothwrang...@hotmail.com
Right now, I can't think of a general book about adult ADHD that I'd recommend over "Driven to Distraction," even if it is a bit dated. (If you're interested in books on kids or teens or college students with ADHD, I can recommend a few of those.) A lot of people relate to "You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!" by Kate Kelly and Peggy Ramundo, but IMO, it's not in the same cl*** as DTD, and it also dates from the mid-90s.
If you're especially challenged by specific kinds of ADHD-related problems, you might check out these books:
- For organizational issues: "ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life" by Judith Kolberg and Kathleen Nadeau. (This book came out last year.)
- For social skills issues: "What Does Everybody Else Know That I Don't?" by Michele Novotni and Randy Petersen
- For work-related issues: "ADD In The Workplace: Choices, Changes, And Challenges" by Kathleen G. Nadeau If you are interested in professional/academic/scientific theory about and discussion of ADHD, try the textbook, "ADHD and the Nature of Self-Control" by Russell A. Barkley in which Barkley discusses his theory that ADHD is primarily a disorder of inhibition which, secondarily, affects attention. It's not light reading though.
If you're interested in Barkley's theories, but don't want to tackle his book, check out the transcript of the workshop he gave for the Schwab Learning Foundation: http://www.schwablearning.org/pdfs/2200_7-barktran.pdf. Although he speaks primarily of ADHD children in it, there's a lot of information that I suspect many ADHD adults will relate to. IMO, despite it's length, it's well worth reading.
Nancy, Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
m ...@earthlink.net (Emma Anne)
"Learning Outside the Box" is a really good book for anyone in school.
kaplo ...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)
Thanks. As a recently self diagnosed adult ADD, I'm looking for a good reading list. I've got "Driven to Distraction," on my nightstand and have already read "You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!". So far I've just been grabbing whatever was available from the local library shelf.
I'm also looking for a doctor to PROPERLY diagnose and treat me. I've seen 2 so far, each spends 5-10 minutes with me, then starts pushing pills at me that don't help and cause negative side effects. They they prescribe more pills to counteract the side effects.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encomp***erve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
kaplo ...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)
Well, I graduated college in the 70s... But I've been taking some cl***es at the local community college and don't recall having that much trouble concentrating when I was in high school or college.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encomp***erve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
shift ...@yahoo.com (Jason)
Hey Gang, I took the tova test this morning. I expected to do well but did poorly. I don't have the numbers before me, but he said I got a 52 compared to 110, which is normal. It was very boring and frustrating because I kept clicking the wrong one after I clicked a series of right ones. He said the results indicated I struggle more with impulsivity than inattention.
It's kind of odd when someone says you have "ADHD" after wondering why you've been the way you've been since you can remember. Next step are the drugs he says will make a huge difference. Fingers still crossed!
Thanks for all your great ideas and suggestions.
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