Why tame us?
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SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
First, people (especially parents, teachers, and especially shrinks) felt it was necessary to treat and drug children who were rambunctious, impulsive, and scattered.
Now, people feel it necessary to treat and drug adolescents and even adults who are restless, impulsive, and scattered.
I don't understand why people so obsessed to "tame" certain individuals that are normal and treat them as if they have some kind of disease, just because they are "different" or "unsual". Different does not always mean bad, for example, 90% use their right hand and 10% use their left hand. Would it be logical to treat and drug left handers?
Let's face it, some of us are born to be wild. What's so bad about that?
Laura Goodwin lala...@altavista.net
Walking into oncoming traffic because your brain doesn't register that the cars are there isn't a cute kind of wild. ADD and ADHD can be crippling and life-threatening, not to mention ~socially disruptive~ in a pointless, insipid, utterly banal way that proves and solves nothing. The reason adults are now being treated is because the kids who were being treated grew up, duh!
Just because I accept that I'm intolerably annoying to most people in my unmedicated state doesn't mean I don't accept and love myself. It *does* mean that I respect other people and their rights enough to take responsibility for myself instead of blaming other people for "not understanding me". Try understanding other people's complaints. They have feelings and rights too.
Just because I am taking medication to manage my more annoying ADHD symptoms doesn't mean I'm "tame", either. I'm more daring and dangerous than ever, in fact! It's much more fun to be a revolutionary when you are more effective. It really helps when you can keep your emotions stable, staying organized and focused on your goals. :) Laura Goodwin
julian9 ...@aol.com (Julian9EHP)
[ . . . ] Tell it, Sister! E. P.
Christopher Eliot el...@EmpireMaster.com
I don't agree with your characterization of people's motives, but I'll ignore that for now.
However, there are also a number of people who choose to use medications on themselves, because it makes it possible to get more out of life.
Instead of acting like helpless victims suffering at the hands of some vague and improbably social conspiracy, these people are doing something to help themselves.
Also, I don't buy into the meaningless feel good notion that we need to stop making any kind of judgment about anything at all. A whole lot of the time things that are different and unusual really are not as good.
Three legged chairs are not just different, they are dangerous. So are people who are too lacking in self-control; they can be dangerous to other people and dangerous to themselves.
It depends what you mean. If you have the self control to be wild in appropriate ways and places then fine. But, stay the hell off the road if you are a wild and dangerous driver.
nknisley nknis...@bcpl.net
Sometimes treatment is necessary because the consequences of not treating the symptoms are so serious. And, if not always necessary, treatment is sometimes highly desirable since it improves the quality of life for these children so much, with very little risk.
IMO, no one is "normal." :-) (And, Hallowell, in "Shadow Syndromes" agrees!) If you mean neurotypical children, they do not meet the criteria for ADHD, and, therefore, are not treated.
Being left-handed, generally, does not cause serious dysfunction in an individual.
Do you think ADHD is as benign as being left-handed? If so, you need to do some reading!
Depends what you mean by wild. Do you mean: Running into traffic without looking?
Being unable to sit still in a cl***room for more than two minutes?
Being unable to learn to read because you can't focus on the instruction for any length of time?
Failing in school because you can't follow instructions, lose your homework, or forget to turn in projects which you did?
Losing jobs because you can't complete your tasks or come in late regularly because you have no sense of time?
Ruining every personal relationship you've ever wanted to have because you were so impulsive, forgetful, unable to focus or plan?
Having financial problems because you forget to pay your bills?
These are some examples of the kinds of behaviors people for which people seek treatment for ADHD. As far as I can see, none of them involve "wildness" or being untamed.
AFAIK, "wildness" is not one of DSM's criteria for diagnosing ADHD.
If being "wild" is messing up your life or the lives of others, I'd say you ought to find out what's causing it and do something about it. If it isn't causing a problem, there's no need to do anything, IMNSHO.
BTW, ADHD medication doesn't prevent anyone from being as "wild" as he or she wants to be. (Where would you get the idea that it does?) Only, with medication, being wild will be a *choice*--not something someone has no control over because of ADHD.
Nancy Unique, like everyone else
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
Walking into oncoming traffic because your brain dosen't register that the cars are there, is a PROCESSING PROBLEM or inattention! That has nothing to do with being overly rambunctious or even impulsive. "Socially disruptive", well if our so called "eccentricity" was accepted, would we be socially disruptive?
If you have trouble respecting other people rights and feelings, you are either two things, a b*tch or an a**hole, not so called "ADHD". Yeah, I may have been a little annoying, but I never remember walking over people's rights or feelings. Matter of fact I consider myself as kind and humble, unless, like anyone, I become prevoked. I found this out just not to long ago, what one may percieve as annoying, others may percieve as entertaining.
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
Not always.
The behavior may be serious problem, but there are MANY ways to cope, with medication just being ONE of them.
Well, lets "medicate" hostile people with ecstacy .
Giving someone an antibiotic is one thing and giving someone a schedule II stimulant is another!
What glitters is not always gold.
So you're trying to say that ADHD children are not normal!
It must do, to a degree, they die an average of nine years before right handers.
In earlier times, left handers were har***ed and tortured, verbally and physically.
Yes, it would be if we weren't in a society who are filled with so many conservative, linear-minded, farmer people. But, being in a hunter in a farmers world, especially in a farmers country, such as USA is not benign, but, only because of social reasons, people want to comform to the majority.
I've been doing LOTS of reading, since I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 13, which was 6 years ago. Some of my favorite "ADD" books are Driven to Distraction, Answers to Distration, ADD: A Different Perception, Thom Hartmann's Guide to ADHD, and Learning Outside the Lines.
No!
Yes, who wants to sit still in a dull cl***room? If a student, especially an older one, is unable to to sit still, it is more of the teachers fault for not making things more interesting or stimulating. I wonder why in some cl***es I excel in and/or be a perfect angel and why in other cl***es I do poorly in and do nothing but bounce off the walls, daydream, or sleep.
No! That has nothing to do with being overly rambunctious.
No! But, that above would be helped, if the school system and work force wasn't so rigid.
Yes! If your job wasn't so boring you should have no problem completing tasks.
No sense of time, ever heard of watches or alarms?
If that person is really your friend or your lover, your personal relationship will not be ruined.
They may be annoyed, however. Usually, but not always, if you find a friend or a significant other who is just as impulsive, forgetful, unable to focus or plan as you are, it is likely that the personal relationhip will last longer. I know that from life experience. If anyone knows about mbti or Keirsey, I have never had a successful friendship nor relationship with a Guardian (SJ)! And I really don't won't one!
No! If one is such a dimwit that they can't remember some big, like paying their bills on regular basis, I feel for them!
Well, maybe I should have mentioned this in my post, when I refer to one as being wild I am refering to the hyperactive or restless "symptoms" of "ADHD". And, not of impulsive and inattentive symptoms, which are to me, way more destructive. Many children and even some adults show only hyperactive symtoms and that's it, nothing else. People want to tame them, which I think it is a big mistake. For what I have read and heard, hyperactivity in childhood may be a little annoying, but in adulthood, hyperactivity=productivity. If your child is hyperactive is she under or over stimulated? If she is understimulated keep her stimulated in productive ways, common sense. If she is over stimulated take away some of the stimulation, also common sense. Severe hyperactivity and mood swings can be caused or made worse by medical problems, such as sensitivities to food coloring or caffiene, hypoglycemia, sleep disorders, and thyroid problems....the list goes on.
I never said it was. But, many people think it is!
It did to me and my friends who were on medication. When we were on medication we took entirely different personalities. We weren't ourselves, zombies more likely, drugged into obedience.
Yes, and it should be a *choice* to be medicated or not. :) BTW I drive awful whenever I take Adderall, can someone please explain that to me?
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy kittens_main_sque...@my-deja.com
Isn't that where the Attention Deficit part of ADHD comes from ?
http://www.m-w.com defines eccentricity as: a: the quality or state of being eccentric b : deviation from an established pattern or norm; especially : odd or whimsical behavior <The rest snipped as it has to do with physics and math> I find nothing eccentric in the behavior of ADHD persons. Our son Viking does not exibit eccentric behavior. He must exert a considerable amount of concentration to remember to do things like turn on the dishwasher after he has loaded it and put in the soap. Hyperactivity is not eccentric, it is hyperactive. Eccentricity is a conscious pattern of different behavior. My impulsive behavior patterns are not eccentric either.
<snip> Many individuals, when in a hyperactive or impulsive state, have a tendance to act with out thinking through to the results, like how the behavior will effect others. This is where the respectfullness towards other goes away.
I, like others here, consider FLoP and his sock-puppets entertaining, but I sure wouldn't want to be friends with him.
Chewy
--
Kitten's Main Squeeze We live in a technological society that creates many illusions of reality...it's the most irresponsible behaving entity that ever lived on this planet. This civilization is not about responsibility, it's about guilt, sin, blame and aggressive bad behavior. That is the shadow world...
The real world is about fulfilling our responsibility to life.
-- John Trudell Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
gotter ...@aol.com (GOtterBMe)
"> Hmm, because these children were suffering serious consequences of their Not always.
" The whole notion that "we" can be "tamed" is ... laughable. :)
Christopher Eliot el...@EmpireMaster.com
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy wrote: [...] I'm not sure, but I think people might consider me eccentric.
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy kittens_main_sque...@my-deja.com
Swazii, You are talking in circles and your arguments are like Schroedinger's cat.
Chewy In article <3A594184.B3B31...@postoffice.swbell.net>,
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Kitten's Main Squeeze We live in a technological society that creates many illusions of reality...it's the most irresponsible behaving entity that ever lived on this planet. This civilization is not about responsibility, it's about guilt, sin, blame and aggressive bad behavior. That is the shadow world...
The real world is about fulfilling our responsibility to life.
-- John Trudell Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
goddess_kit ...@my-deja.com
This is not in dispute. IIRC, as per research about which an article was posted earlier this weekend (by Mark, I believe, in the thread re: the most current response from IvanHoe.Com), *most* AD/HDers do *not* use medication as part of their approach to dealing with AD/HD.
<snipped> Heaven forbid! Who wants to be "normal"? After all, "normal" is the *average* of all the abnormals in our world.
In other words, *noone* is "normal". You wanna be noone?
<snipped> Hell-O!!!
Who's dream world are you living in?
Considering that I grew up in a hunting/farming community (yes, *real* farmers are also *hunters*!) and a family of AD/HDers, it is *my opinion* that you are *way* off-base here.
Rather than attempt to justify your fantasies by blaming your difficulties on other people, start looking at *why* you have the difficulties you do with others. It is *not* everyone else's fault that you are different.
It is noone's fault that AD/HDers are different than NTs. It's just a matter of being. Learn to deal with it. Learn to like it. Learn to live with it... SAFELY.
And how do these books lead you to the conclusion that AD/HD is only a problem because non-AD/HDers say it is a problem?
Well, considering that this is what we're dealing with here. Wild is great. We've a natural whitewater kayaker in the house. Whitewater kayaking can be extremely wild. It can also be extremely dangerous if the kayaker is not observant of water hazards.
As a matter of fact, FLATwater kayaking/canoeing is extremely dangerous if one doesn't *pay attention* to such water hazards as sweepers and shelves. It's great to be wild. But be SAFE in your wildness.
But it has everything in the world to do with Attention Deficit.
Yeah. Our YS's losing his paperwork between cl*** and home is the SCHOOL's fault! Has absolutely *nothing* to do with the fact that he can't remember where he put it!
Yeah!! Let's give him an easy way to blame others for his problems!
Sorry. No dice. We prefer to teach our children to take responsibility for their actions and their mistakes.
I currently have one of the *least* boring jobs I've ever had. But guess what? I *still* have problems with not completing tasks on time.
I have to keep a schedule with a checklist if I want to get things done. And I have to keep it somewhere that I *can't* lose it.
<snipped> Let me guess. Your parents are still paying *your* bills, aren't they?
<snipped> Apparently, *you* think it is, since that's what got this entire thread started.
You apparently weren't taking AD/HD meds, then, since they *don't* "drug into obedience". If anything, the added focus allows AD/HDers to rebel *more* in the areas in which they feel the need to rebel.
--
Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." - Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry; Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
goddess_kit ...@my-deja.com
But eccentricity due to your AD/HD? Or is it just a part of who you are?
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Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." - Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry; Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Christopher Eliot el...@EmpireMaster.com
The answer to that question is far beyond my comprehension.
goddess_kit ...@my-deja.com
My eccentric behaviors are a choice in how I wish to live my life.
They've nothing to do with my absentmindedness, my difficulty in focusing, or my impulsiveness. They're things like working online (OK, not so eccentric these days), studying Celtic traditionalism, and studying Reiki.
Chewy and Viking are discussing whether or not they want to learn a bit of smithing. This is a lifestyle choice, not a result of AD/HD.
--
Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." - Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry; Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
m ...@earthlink.net (Emma Anne)
Well, I am medicated, but I'm certainly not tamed. BTW, no one feels the need to treat me - I make that decision myself.
Christopher Eliot el...@EmpireMaster.com
Why do you feel that people are obsessed with trying to "tame" certain individuals?
Do you have any evidence that would convince us that this view is more than your fantasy? I simply don't believe it, so I can't explain why you think so.
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy wrote: Uh huh, but not the hyperactivity part of ADHD.
"Whatever is in your heart (and mind) will eventually pour out of your mouth" Author unknown
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
Huh? How am I talking in circles?
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy wrote:
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
Let's put it in other words, people ATTEMPT to tame us :)
nknisley nknis...@bcpl.net
This isn't news. As long as I've been reading ASAD, I don't remember any legitimate poster claiming that medication was the only way to cope with ADHD. Most people with ADHD cope in a variety of ways and discuss them regularly on ASAD.
The medications approved for use for treatment of ADHD are generally safe and effective. AFAIK, ecstasy isn't approved for the treatment of "hostility" and is generally recognized as being unsafe, ineffective, not to mention, illegal.
And your reasoning is...?
Not much of an counter-argument against my statement.
You want to explain *why* you think children should not be treated with medication if the consequences of not treating the symptoms are serious, or if medication improves their quality of life, with very little risk?
I repeat IMO, *no one* is "normal." And, I have Dr. Hallowell to back me up. In "Shadow Syndromes" he says, "probably none of us is 'normal'--normal in the sense of possessing a brain in which every part and system works as well as every other part and system--and all functions lie well within an optimal range. Such a brain may in fact be a logical impossibility....(N)ormal people are not all that normal." And, on average, men die sooner than women. Is being male dysfunctional in your opinion?
No, not just because of "social reasons." My ADD son has no social problems. And, as for his wanting to "conform to the majority"!! That's a laugh. This boy is happily a dedicated non-conformist.
But, did you learn anything from these books? If you did, how could you write what you have?
Well, that's a danger in some children with untreated ADHD.
I disagree. A child who is severely hyperactive CANNOT sit still, no matter how "interesting or stimulating" the cl*** is. A child who is severely inattentive CANNOT pay attention or focus, no matter how "interesting or stimulating" the cl*** is.
But has a lot to do with being diagnosed with ADHD.
It would be nice if you (or I) could change the "school system and work force" so it would conform to your (or, better yet, *my*) needs, wouldn't it? But that might be a little impractical.
I believe some ADDers with non-boring jobs may disagree with you.
An ADDer may: forget to set his alarm, forget to look at the watch, forget to wear his watch, lose his watch, look at his watch, then promptly become distracted by moths....
Forgetting is this case is not caused by being a "dimwit"; it's caused by having problems with "executive functions" like planning and organization which many people with ADHD have.
Have you no problems with planning or organization?
Well, *I* would hardly call the majority of the "hyperactive" behaviors the DSM lists as "wild." Is fidgeting or squirming "wild"? Is leaving a seat in situations in which remaining seated is expected "wild"? Is often having difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly "wild"? Is often talking excessively "wild"?
Of course, maybe your idea of "wild" behavior and mine are quite different. Maybe you live a dull, quiet life and these do seem like "wild" behaviors to you....
Do you think these behaviors (listed in the DSM) are "wild"?
...
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
I agree, however, we should not be penalized for it!
Me? I am not only speaking for myself, but for other who are, "different" also. It is not our fault that we are different or treated badly because we are. Fantisies? This isn't porn! ;) How am I off-base?
Huh? What does this have to do with Rationals? I agree, it's just a matter of being, so why change it?
Thom Hartmann's books. Read 'em.
I agree, paying attention is essential to many things, I never denied that!
It depends, some folks can not focus because they are tired, stressed, or bored....and the list goes on.
Good for you, I do to!
Bills? I don't have any yet, thank goodness! I am only a sophomore in college, not 40!
Yes I was. I took Ritalin for four years and Adderall for two years. And I was more obedient and better behaved when I was on them.
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
I agree, however we should not be penalized for it!
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
But, children and some teens can't!
SWA ...@postoffice.swbell.net
Giving people psychostimulants, just because "they aren't still".
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