PLEASE HELP.
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BUCKLE ...@MSN.COM (Jennifer)
If anyone can tell me about what my options are for my up comming permenancy hearing, I'd really apprecieate it. I just need to know what my rights are at this point. Thanks in advance, as always, Jen
cev ...@aol.com (Eric von Kleist)
Jen, What state are you in? I'll see what I can find.
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
"Destroycps!" destroy...@email.com
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Jennifer Destroycps!
Not counting review hearings or motion hearings, the permanency hearing comes after the dependency or jurisdictional hearing and (usually) before the TPR hearing. First we should understand how the family courts use the word permanency. In general permanency means the court is ordering a TPR petition. If the court "finds for permanency" the state will file a petition for TPR.
Usually the kid is in foster custody at the time of the permanency hearing. In your case, since your kids are with you, things are different, and the result may well go in your favor, that is, the court may rule for the status quo.
I imagine there should be some pre-hearing negotiation between your attorney and the other attorneys. If they come to an agreement, there won't be much of a hearing. I ***ume SCF (the CPS of Oregon) will want you to continue "services" for some indefinite time. You goal should be to limit that and get a commitment when your case will end.
If there is a contested issue, you will be allowed to testify.
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BUCKLE ...@MSN.COM (Jennifer)
> Jen,
> What state are you in? I'll see what I can find.
> Eric von Kleist
> Spartanburg, South Carolina I'm in Oregon. I just need to know if I have the right to go in there and ask for full custody of my kids, since I have done everything required of me?
Thanks Jen
"Destroycps!" destroy...@email.com
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Jennifer Destroycps!
A request needs to be in the form of a motion. If your lawyer can get the SCF attorney and the GAL to join in the motion, then it will carry.
If somebody opposes the motion, then you (your lawyer, actually) will have the opportunity to argue in favor of the motion and he or she may call you to testify to provide evidence to support the motion.
When is this hearing?
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BUCKLE ...@MSN.COM (Jennifer)
Thank You. So thats what I will do. Ask for a definate date on when I will regain full custody. I have had much involvement w/ SCF since the kids came home. I see my case worker once a month, when she comes by for her required monthy visit, and thats about it. But I just want my children back in my custody as soon as possible. Thanks again for the info.
Jen
"Dan Sullivan" dsull...@optonline.net
Hello Jennifer, I know you want to get custody back and be rid of CPS involvement, but you've got to figure that they are gonna be in your life for about six months (at least) after the father comes home.
Once a month visits means you'll see the CW about six more times.
Full custody will be here before ya know it.
Keep up the good work.
All the best, Dan
cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
hearing, I'd really apprecieate it. I just need to know what my rights are at this point.
after the dependency or jurisdictional hearing and (usually) before the TPR hearing. First we should understand how the family courts use the word permanency. In general permanency means the court is ordering a TPR petition.
If the court "finds for permanency" the state will file a petition for TPR.
This not entirely accurate. A permanency hearing is used to decide the issue of permanency, whether that is placement with a relative, adoption, permanent foster care, emancipation, or permanent return to the family.
your case, since your kids are with you, things are different, and the result may well go in your favor, that is, the court may rule for the status quo.
If the kids have been returned home as a result of Jen complying with the treatment plan, that can be seen as indicative of the intent the state has with regards to the permanency plan for the children.
and the other attorneys. If they come to an agreement, there won't be much of a hearing. I ***ume SCF (the CPS of Oregon) will want you to continue "services" for some indefinite time. You goal should be to limit that and get a commitment when your case will end.
Or to ask that it end immediately based on her compliance with and satisfaction of all the requirements that SCF has made of her. In this regard, her goal should be to get SCF out of her life immediately.
Her lawyer may be allowed to argue the issue before the judge, and she *may* be allowed to testify, depending on whether the judge wants to hear her and whether her lawyer wants her to testify.
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
got to figure that they are gonna be in your life for about six months (at least) after the father comes home.
That may be the *likely* outcome, but it is not the *necessary* outcome. If her lawyer proves that she has complied satisfactorily with the treatment plan, there is no reason that she should not ask for "services" to be terminated immediately.
Unless her lawyer asks for something different and gets it.
One way or another, yes.
Amen!
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
"Dan Sullivan" dsull...@optonline.net
Of course Jen was successful with the treatment plan, that's why she got the children back.
And her attny could ASK for the "services" to be terminated because she did comply.
But it's not just the treatment plan, it's how Jennifer handles each successive change in her families circumstances.
First she got Trevar back, and things went well. And a while later (6-8 weeks) the twins came home, and things went well again.
And now the father has moved back in.
Jennifer didn't say whether CPS agreed with that move or the father just went ahead and did it without warning anybody.
Or when he moved back in. He could have moved in last week for all we know.
Anytime a father moves back in there is always a HUGE chance that the mother will slide back into whatever it was that made her lose the children in the first place.
I'm sure CPS is gonna want to play it safe and have contact (however little) with both parents for at least six months.
I can't imagine CPS or the GAL agreeing that the kids should go back to full custody so soon after the father moved back in.
Right now is the most precarious time for Jennifer, the kids, and the father.
The GAL and CPS would have to agree. They've been at this point before, so I doubt that's gonna happen.
Later, Dan
"Destroycps!" destroy...@email.com
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TPR.
C E von K Destroycps!
The word permanency might be used differently by different state jurisdictions. I just checked with someone who was previously an employee of Missouri's DFS for thirty years (that's right) and who now works for a large law firm. She said, "If a child is not in care, they don't have a permanency hearing".
I also asked her what the return rate (continuing from a previous thread) was in her estimate. She said, "It depends on many variables; I wouldn't know how to answer that".
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cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
you've got to figure that they are gonna be in your life for about six months (at least) after the father comes home.
her lawyer proves that she has complied satisfactorily with the treatment plan, there is no reason that she should not ask for "services" to be terminated immediately.
children back.
She really doesn't have them "back" for good until the CPS involvement is ended.
comply.
He not only *could*, he *ought* to do.
successive change in her families circumstances.
No. It's the treatment plan. That is (theoretically) the contingency upon which the end of state involvement is to be based. The court no doubt will look at other issues, and may act ex mero motu; however, compliance with the treatment plan should be satisfactory for getting the kids back.
the twins came home, and things went well again.
ahead and did it without warning anybody.
Unless he were forbidden from doing such, it's nobody's business.
will slide back into whatever it was that made her lose the children in the first place.
You base this claim on what?
with both parents for at least six months.
CPS is going to try to do whatever it can to justify the continued provision of "services". Just because things are going well for Jen does not mean that either the agency is her friend or that they have her best interests at heart.
custody so soon after the father moved back in.
If the father was not a part of the problem before, they should have no objection to it.
father.
As long as the CPS agency is involved things are precarious for all involved.
doubt that's gonna happen.
That doesn't mean that they won't agree now, and it doesn't mean that she should not ask the court to get them out of her life permanently.
Asking cannot hurt.
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
issue of permanency, whether that is placement with a relative, adoption, permanent foster care, emancipation, or permanent return to the family.
jurisdictions.
Could be.
for thirty years (that's right) and who now works for a large law firm. She said, "If a child is not in care, they don't have a permanency hearing".
If a child is not "in care", why on earth would they have a permanency hearing?
I think the terms may be a problem.
thread) was in her estimate. She said, "It depends on many variables; I wouldn't know how to answer that".
Well, at least she was willing to give an honest answer! :) Jen certainly has a right to ask the court to terminate CPS involvement, anyway.
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
hearing, I'd really apprecieate it. I just need to know what my rights are at this point. Thanks in advance, as always, Jen, do you have a lawyer handling this for you?
Here is a link to some Oregon statutes that might be of help to you: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/419b.html I'd read through all these very carefully if I were you. I am not familiar enough with your situation to know what portions apply (some parts would probably obviously - to you- not apply to your situation.) I don't know how soon your hearing is, but it would probably not hurt to read all this information very carefully.
It appears that ou should have been served with a summons and a petition for any kind of hearing. The petition should give you some indication of what the state is asking of the court. Have you received that? Has your lawyer explained it to you?
Here is a link to the DCF policy and procedures manuals: http://170.104.12.72/Intranet/scf_manuals/Policy.htm Have you read these? They may give you a better understanding of what DCF is likely to say to the court. Look through http://170.104.12.72/intranet/scf_manuals/manual_1/I-I3.htm which should give you an idea of what the statutory minimum of CPS agents must be reporting to the court.
Good luck!
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
"Dan Sullivan" dsull...@optonline.net
And even after Jennifer gets her legal custody of the children back CPS will always be in the background till her youngest turns 18.
Something happens and you don't think the first action CPS will take will be to open the old file?
Fine. I didn't say he shouldn't ask.
I just doubt it'll happen so soon after the father moved back in.
Come on, Eric, yer gonna talk "theoreticals" about CPS???
If it was just the treatment plan then all three kids should have shown up on Jennifer's door on the same day.
It didn't happen that way.
Tell me you don't think CPS could've scooped up those kids the minute they heard the father moved in if they wanted to.
Experience. Knowledge.
heart.
Their interest "theoretically" is the best interests of the children.
And they're visiting Jennifer and the family once a month.
Six more times or so and hopefully the case is closed.
He was a great deal of the problem.
In fact Jennifer was advised right from the beginning that if she didn't separate from the father she wouldn't have a chance of getting the children back.
involved.
CPS is always in the background till the youngest turns 18, closed case or not.
And they're always ready to step in.
You know this, Eric.
As I'm sure Jennifer knows it.
So let him ask!
Later, Dan
cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
you've got to figure that they are gonna be in your life for about six months (at least) after the father comes home.
treatment plan, there is no reason that she should not ask for "services" to be terminated immediately.
the children back.
ended.
always be in the background till her youngest turns 18.
No doubt. They will not be in her home, though, will they?
to open the old file?
Sure. And if they stay in her life for another six month or year or year and a half do you think they won't do the same thing.
comply.
You didn't say he should, either. I did.
It certainly won't happen if no one asks for it, will it?
successive change in her families circumstances.
which the end of state involvement is to be based. The court no doubt will look at other issues, and may act ex mero motu; however, compliance with the treatment plan should be satisfactory for getting the kids back.
Good point. On the other hand, she signed a treatment plan. She completed it.
Those were the terms. She can expect that the court will give some deference to those terms.
I'm just not gonna talk "bend over and you won't hardly feel a thing", either.
Jennifer's door on the same day.
I don't know what the treatment plan or the reunification plan specified. Did they specify that?
weeks) the twins came home, and things went well again.
went ahead and did it without warning anybody.
heard the father moved in if they wanted to.
No, I won't tell you that. It's obvious that they did not, though, isn't it?
mother will slide back into whatever it was that made her lose the children in the first place.
Sorry, but one can as easily make the argument that a spouse provides a support system support system and contribute to family stability. It's sure a lot easier to keep an eye on the kids with two adults in the house.
little) with both parents for at least six months.
of "services". Just because things are going well for Jen does not mean that either the agency is her friend or that they have her best interests at heart.
Whose talking "theoreticals" now?
Especially if she does not ask to have it closed now. You can bet your life on it.
full custody so soon after the father moved back in.
objection to it.
separate from the father she wouldn't have a chance of getting the children back.
Okay. I wasn't in on that part of the conversation. But that just lends credence to the *speculation* that the CPS agency is okay with the father moving back in, doesn't it?
father.
involved.
not.
They're in everybody's background, only most people don't know it.
Sure. It goes for everybody. They sure won't step out without being asked.
I doubt that's gonna happen.
should not ask the court to get them out of her life permanently.
That's what I said from the beginning........
It's entirely possible they will "extend" the supervision for all the reasons that you present. There is also the possibility that the court will order the supervision to end, but that possibility is a whole lot less likely if she doesn't ask for it.
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
"Dan Sullivan" dsull...@optonline.net
I just offered my opinion that CPS wouldn't turn over legal custody for at least six months after the father moved back in.
Are ya kiddin?????
either.
I'm just stating what I know to be true.
it?
No they did not.
Jennifer also didn't say that CPS knows the father's moved back in.
I'm hoping she's not planning on making it a surprise.
Sorry, that's not true in this circumstance.
CPS still has legal custody and can do what they want with the children.
You haven't heard it enough on this NG?
Just havin fun.
I'll bet that CPS won't turn over legal custody for at least six months after the father moves back in.
If they actually know.
I doubt Jennifer would rock their boat by doing something like that so I'll have to say, "YES" But the experiment continues... six more months at least.
No bumps in the road.
asked.
Six months. Take my word for it.
And I said six months.......
I don't want Jennifer to think that completing the cl***es makes this thing end.
It doesn't.
Later, Dan
gizzmonator2 ...@aol.com (Gizzmonator2002)
i had my permanancy hearing yesterday. i'm still in shock. be prepared! dhs decided to change their mind at the last minute. i lost my daughter. i'll pray for you!
cev ...@aol.com (Eric von Kleist)
Not a bit. She can expect that of the court. It's what she agreed to do under the terms of the court ordered supervision. Is it binding on the court? No, and I did not say that. But she can expect the court to give some deference to her successful completion of the treatment plan.
I don't mean to discount the validity of the opinion you offered, and even concede that the outcome you envision is a likely one; however, people should not just sit idly by trying to push their thumbs from one end of their ailimentary canal to the other while CPS and the court decide their fate.
I'm not questioning your truths, just suggesting a reasonable thing for her to request. The fact that one has complied with admitted a problem, complied with a treatment plan, and reordered his life to the satisfaction of a CPS agency does not change his middle name to Doormat.
Did they specify that?
True. I was going on the ***umption that everything she has done is in compliance with agency's requirements. Big ***umption, I know, but it's based on the apparent overall compliance that Jen represents to us.
Again, my knowledge of her situation is not extensive.
Sure. But the status quo won't change any sooner if she doesn't ask for it to change.
I hope you are wrong. I hope she asks for it to end and it does. It ain't an experiment. It's her family's life.
I wish her the best with that.
...
"Dan Sullivan" dsull...@optonline.net
Dan first, then Eric, at least six months after the father moved back in.
You certainly do a great deal of good work for the people on this NG, there's no doubt about that.
And Jen's attny could put the question to the other parties (CPS and the GAL) before the hearing, but what I wrote IS specific information.
And if CPS or the GAL (not that I say they do) wants to slam her in court they will tell her attny that they will go along with the motion to return legal custody and then change their mind when they're in front of the judge.
There is something to the adage, "Keep yer head down." contingency upon which the end of state involvement is to be based. The court no doubt will look at other issues, and may act ex mero motu; however, compliance with the treatment plan should be satisfactory for getting the kids back.
completed it. Those were the terms. She can expect that the court will give some deference to those terms.
They already did, Jennifer got her children back.
And legal custody will come when CPS believes the family has stabilized and is clean for a period of time..
The father just got home!
Jennifer absolutely should ask for the case to be closed and legal custody returned to her six months after the father came home.
Her attny could put this request to CPS and the GAL, but it's not gonna happen.
And if they say they'll go along with it I would be VERY skeptical!!!
But Jennifer's life just became "reordered" again!!!
A new situation.
shown up on Jennifer's door on the same day.
later(6-8 weeks) the twins came home, and things went well again.
they heard the father moved in if they wanted to.
the mother will slide back into whatever it was that made her lose the children in the first place.
a support system support system and contribute to family stability. It's sure a lot easier to keep an eye on the kids with two adults in the house.
Actually it's the situation of having any father who was part of the original problem and who the mother was advised to leave move back in.
And it won't change before CPS feels comfortable with the current situation.
And the father moving back in changed the status quo.
It's back to the experiment! Or test, or whatever you want to call it.
(however little) with both parents for at least six months.
provision of "services". Just because things are going well for Jen does not mean that either the agency is her friend or that they have her best interests at heart.
after the father moves back in.
I know I'm not wrong. And I do want CPS out of Jennifer's life ASAP just like you.
back to full custody so soon after the father moved back in.
have no objection to it.
didn't separate from the father she wouldn't have a chance of getting the children back.
lends credence to the *speculation* that the CPS agency is okay with the father moving back in, doesn't it?
I'll have to say, "YES" It's an experiment to CPS. Not to Jennifer.
Me too.
It would have to be agreed to by CPS and the GAL.
before, so I doubt that's gonna happen.
that she should not ask the court to get them out of her life permanently.
...
"Destroycps!" destroy...@email.com
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Gizzmonator2002 prepared!
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Write about what happened so that you have a record for yourself. Then rest for a little while, and avoid thinking about the case (do something that occupies your thoughts).
After that, plan your next step. A permanency hearing is not the end.
Gizzmonator2002 daughter.
Destroycps!
You must be saying they were leading you to believe you would get your daughter back. (Was she gone already at the time of the hearing?) DHS, which must be the CPS where you live, probably didn't *change* their minds. They planned all along to take your kid.
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Marilyn ...@yahoo.com (Marilynn)
You don't say if you have an attorney or not. Either way, if you're planning an appeal of some type, research and verify any deadlines.
The courts can be very strict on these.
Marilynn
BUCKLE ...@MSN.COM (Jennifer)
Thank You for your prayers. And I'm sorry for your outcome, I will pray for you as well.
Well my hearing was on Tuesday, The 12th. And just as Dan said, they asked for 6 more months. My lawyer asked for 4, then SCF said 4 1/2, and ultimatly the Judge scheduled the next review for Oct. 29th, at which time, (if all goes well), we will dismiss the case. The day before the hearing, I asked my C.W, what her recommendation would be, and she said 6 months to be sure the Father was stable, and that I had already shown that I was, but she wanted to make sure he was as well.
Dan, do you know more about my case than I do? Because you seemed to hit the nail square on the head.
amyways, all lawyers and the c.w. had nothing but nice things to say about our progress, and really made us sound like saints.
Yes, SCF knew the father was comming home before hand, but even though it had been a big drawback according to the c.w at one point, she eventualy trusted my ability to protect the kids from any further exposure to to the father if he started using again. And I'm happy to say, so far so good. He has an excellent job making 30 dollars an hour working for the forestry service, and is really envolving himself in more family oriented type of activities. I'm not saying everything is perfect, but pretty close.
Well thanks everyone for your support and advice during all of this.
As always Jen
"Dan Sullivan" dsull...@optonline.net
Hello Jennifer, Clap-clap-clap-clap-clap!!!!!
CPS is gonna keep a sharp eye on all of you for the next few months.
Glad to hear it!
Keep up the good work.
All the best as usual, Dan
cev ...@aol.com (C E von K)
<snip> 6 more months. My lawyer asked for 4, then SCF said 4 1/2, and ultimatly the Judge scheduled the next review for Oct. 29th, at which time, (if all goes well), we will dismiss the case. The day before the hearing, I asked my C.W, what her recommendation would be, and she said 6 months to be sure the Father was stable, and that I had already shown that I was, but she wanted to make sure he was as well.
Wonderful! Good luck until October 29th.
nail square on the head. amyways, all lawyers and the c.w. had nothing but nice things to say about our progress, and really made us sound like saints.
been a big drawback according to the c.w at one point, she eventualy trusted my ability to protect the kids from any further exposure to to the father if he started using again. And I'm happy to say, so far so good. He has an excellent job making 30 dollars an hour working for the forestry service, and is really envolving himself in more family oriented type of activities. I'm not saying everything is perfect, but pretty close.
Eric von Kleist Spartanburg, South Carolina
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