Something to take into account
Related Topics
"wmoonlake" wmoonl...@microsoft.com
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/Iatrogenic/psychiatry_children.htm
"Captain Swing" CaptSw...@aztec.asu.edu
I don't think I've seen you post before. Welcome! I did not have time to digest all the links, I've bookmarked the link for more reading later. While the link doe not really provide any information not seen here before, it is good to know the interest in these areas is still there. Any medical treatment deserves watchdogging. Two questions about the article and your interest: What is tardive dyskinesia? I don't think I've come across that term before.
What is you interest in this and have you looked at other (non-drug) treatments?
Mark Probert markpr...@my-deja.com
Other than preaching, do you have a point?
--
Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts--DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
"Mitchell Small" mi...@unitedlabs.com
Maybe you can answer: what is tardive dyskinesia?
nknisley nknis...@bcpl.net
Tardive dyskinesia (TD) is a drug-induced movement disorder characterized by twisting motions of the hands and feet, and smacking or chewing movements of the mouth.
AFAIK, TD is primarily ***ociated with the older neuroleptic drugs like Haldol and Thorazine, but there is still some risk with the newer neuroleptics as well as with tricyclic antidepressants and some mood stabilizers.
Nancy Unique, like everyone else
"wmoonlake" wmoonl...@microsoft.com
Thanks Nancy.
It involves other tics and shuffles and can be permanent. The symptoms of tardive dyskinesia are often mistaken for mental illness itself and serve to make psychiatric patients appear frightening to the general public and so aggravates stigma.
As a young girl, I had symptoms of this. My tongue stuck out and it was impossible to put it back in my mouth. Also, I would be walking along and suddenly my legs would not work anymore so I had to crawl. I also had milk coming out of my breasts. (Another possible side effect of neuroleptic drugs). I learned to pretend to take the medication and then throw it away later.
I posted the address to this page because I have experience of having been drugged as a young person and not being informed of what side effects to expect, nor of what long-term misery I was being set up for. For ages I blamed all of my problems on myself when most of them were drug-induced.
I think parents especially should take this sort of information into account before deciding to give their children psychiatric drugs.
wmoon
gotter ...@aol.com (GOtterBMe)
wmoonlake said: "I think parents especially should take this sort of information into account before deciding to give their children psychiatric drugs.
" There are NO meds for ADHD that do this. I'm not sure if you want to hear this, but not all psychiatric meds are equal, and times have changed. Parents are told about these possibilities for meds *when they legitimately exist.* It's an important issue but it doesn't really have anything at all to do with ADHD. Not in the year 2001 (I hope you weren't given these meds for ADHD, but ADHD was not well understood even 30 years ago...)
Wisterio Podgoski podgor...@softcom.net
Tardive Dyskinesia is generally caused by the older psych drugs such as the Phenothiazines, i.e. Chlorpromazine, Stelazine, Mellaril, Haldol, Prolixin. There is some concern that the newer generation or antipsych meds may also cause T.D. However, T.D. usually occurs in patients prescribed large doses of antipsychotics over long periods of time. It also presents much more prominently in older women than in men.
Sometimes it is reversible, sometimes not.
Someone wrote in this thread that as a young girl she experienced side effects from her meds. This was probably no tardive dyskinesia, but rather side effects that could have been easily controlled with diphenhydramine of Cogentin.
 | podgorski.vcf 1K Download |
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy kittens_main_sque...@my-deja.com
Hey FLop, See that you are up to your usual mindless drivel.
Other than occuppying space DO YOU have a point?
Besides the one on the top of your head.
I must appologize, the CIA says that THE UKRAINE isn't anymore.
It seems that it went away with it's Soviet masters.
It is officially Ukraine. Not that it is any more free than it ever was, as it's really still under the Soviets. If I recall, the only one who really offered any chace at freedom to Ukrainians was Nestor Makhno.
Chewy In article <935989$85...@pita.alt.net>, "<- flight ofthephoenix ->" <NoDeathThreats@fromMentalCaseDrugZombies> wrote: http://www.garynull.com/Documents/Iatrogenic/psychiatry_children.htm
--
Kitten's Main Squeeze We live in a technological society that creates many illusions of reality...it's the most irresponsible behaving entity that ever lived on this planet. This civilization is not about responsibility, it's about guilt, sin, blame and aggressive bad behavior. That is the shadow world...
The real world is about fulfilling our responsibility to life.
-- John Trudell Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Kitten's Main Squeeze - Chewy kittens_main_sque...@my-deja.com
While these links are not really relevant to ADHD, I must comment that generally Gary Null usually has done a reasonable amount of research into the topics he has on his radio show.
BUT, in all fairness, I find that many of his theories a bit beyond my desires. Like living beyond 100 years. If I had to follow his diet, I wouldn't have much fun. As it is, my family, with the exception of war casualites, all lived well p***ed 90 years. Can't really see giving up my Guinness and 18 y/o Macallan to live a couple of more years.
Chewy
--
Kitten's Main Squeeze We live in a technological society that creates many illusions of reality...it's the most irresponsible behaving entity that ever lived on this planet. This civilization is not about responsibility, it's about guilt, sin, blame and aggressive bad behavior. That is the shadow world...
The real world is about fulfilling our responsibility to life.
-- John Trudell Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Christopher Eliot el...@EmpireMaster.com
Your description is anguishing. I don't know how your parent's decided on the treatment you were given, but I can explain my thoughts about my son.
I absolutely agree that all of this sort of information should be taken into account. I am not sure you understand how hard it is for parents to learn about these things.
But more importantly, I hope you might understand how terrible the choices can be for parents. You describe awful results from psychiatric treatments.
But, I also know there could be awful results from the psychaitric problems that my son faces. I've made the best choices I am able to make for him, and I cry in misery at the thought that there might be something in his treatment that is worse than his underlying problems.
I learned a lot when I fully faced the fact that I was going to have to make these decisions (with my wife). I wasn't prepared for that responsibility; at least I didn't think I was prepared. But the degree to which I love my son and want him to have the best possible life is great.
I don't know why you were given medications as a child that affected you the way you describe. But, I do hope that people intended them to help.
"wmoonlake" wmoonl...@microsoft.com
I looks to me like you didn't read the page I posted the address of. Here is just one excerpt concerning Ritalin.
Risks and benefits of drugs used in the management of the hyperactive child.
Fox AM, Rieder MJ.
Drug Saf 1993 Jul;9(1):38-50.
This article emphasizes that although treatment with psychotropic drugs of children diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactive disorder has been ***ociated with short-term benefits in the majority of them, no data are available demonstrating long-term efficacy of these drugs. In addition, these drugs have been ***ociated with severe and potentially fatal adverse effects, such as tics, suppression of growth, drug abuse, cardiac arrest and sudden death. Benefits and risks of treatment should be carefully weighted when considering initiation of drug treatment in these children.
and another: Synthetic food colourings and 'hyperactivity': a double-blind crossover study.
Rowe KS.
Aust Paediatr J 1988 Apr;24(2):143-7.
The results of this study show that artificial food colors induce behavioral changes typical of attention-deficit hyperactive disorder (ADHD) in susceptible children. Fifty-five children with suspected ADHD were put on the Feingold diet for a 6-week period. Approximately three-quarters of them exhibited significant behavior improvements, which lasted for 3-6 months after discontinuation of the diet. In 14 of these children hyperactive symptoms seemed to be triggered by artificial food coloring.
"wmoonlake" wmoonl...@microsoft.com
Yes. There should be a *lot* more information for parents. And the medical and the drug companies need to be more honest and prudent.
I think I will never get over the anger I feel toward my parents for trusting doctors so thoroughly. They saw me in the condition I described above and as far as I know, they didn't even ask the doctor what was happening to me. Even I believed it was part of my illness. i.e. "All my fault".
They probably thought they were doing all they could. In fact, they were all conspiring to cover up the alcohol problem in my family. My father showed me that alcohol was the way to deal with life's problems. Psychiatry taught me that drugs were the way to deal with life's problems. same thing.
I know that people can be helped by drugs. I don't think people should have to suffer if drugs can soothe them. I just want doctors to be more careful.
And drug companies to be more honest. I think people should use drugs as they need them but make it their goal to heal eventually and get off drugs as much as possible. They only mask the problem in my opinion.
wmoon
"wmoonlake" wmoonl...@microsoft.com
This is the type of reasoning doctors have. A medication is obviously not doing the patient any good and is obviously harming their brain and body, so they prescribe some other crap to cover up side effects.
wmoon
julian9 ...@aol.com (Julian9EHP)
[ . . . ] [Emphasis mine] --------------------- growth,
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[ . . . ] This page uses shock instead of fact. ADD people vary from growth norms. I've never tried Ritalin, and I'm 4 feet 11 inches tall.
E. P.
gotter ...@aol.com (GOtterBMe)
wmoonlake I apologize for mistaking you for someone who might really be looking for full and complete information.
You have a nice day now. :)
Christopher Eliot el...@EmpireMaster.com
[...] Perhaps you should consider the fact that almost everyone treated doctors that way 30 years ago. The concept of 'patient's rights' and making your own medical judgments was only beginning to form back then.
I don't agree with it, but it was the norm for the time. This is the attitude your parents were expected to have, and the same as every other parent at the time.
Again, this is the way everyone was treated 30 years ago. It isn't right and things have improved since then.
[...] 100 years ago nothing was done for people with psychiatric problems, except maybe to lock them up or burn them at the stake. The use of drugs to try to help only has a history of 50-75 years. That is an incredibly short period of time to try to figure out what effects they have and how they should be used. It is an extremely difficult problem.
Your postings have not really offered any constructive criticism, except a vague exhortation that doctors should "more careful". That provides no guidance at all. I think it is important to think about *how* they can actually make better decisions, not just demand that they make better decisions.
In your messages you have described your anger at your parents, blamed your parents for what they did, blamed the doctors for what they did, blamed the drug companies for what they did. But I don't think you have ever said anything about what you might have done that made them think psychiatric drugs were a solution. I don't think you have really said anything about what alternative might have worked better.
It sounds like the results of your treatment were truly horrible.
But I think, for your benefit as much as anything, it would be good to think about how people might have made better decisions, using the knowledge that was available to them at the time. I have thought about some of the lousy things that happened to me as a child in this way. I believe things could have been much better, but there is no way that I can honestly suggest it was possible at the time. The scientific and cultural knowledge we have today simply was not available 30 years ago.
This is fine, as a principle but there are no specifics. In what specific situations will drugs be helpful? What risks are worth taking? When exactly can people stop using them? What is 'the problem' that gets masked?
There is nothing wrong with being angry at what happened to you and venting off about how you were hurt. But, if you are like me, you will find that it is worthwhile to move beyond this kind of anger. One way to do that is to think about how you would make those same decisions if you were the one who had to do it.
J. Clarke nosp...@nospam1.nospam1
Would you be kind enough to go over to deja and read the last year of postings on this newsgroup? You have not brought up anything new--this has been beaten to death time and time again, and the lot of us are heartily sick of it.
First, your references are quite a bit out of date--in case you haven't noticed, it's 2001, and in medicine right now 7-12 years is an eternity.
Second, a medication being "***ociated" with something does not mean that one should be concerned about this--air will poison you under the right circumstances. The issue is whether the particular result is a _likely_ one. None of the commonly used ADHD meds cause tics in any great number of people--in any case tics are hardly fatal. They do sometimes unmask Tourette's syndrome, however, one of the characteristics of which is tics. It has been discovered that it is not the medications that suppress growth, it is the ADHD itself--people diagnosed with ADHD who do not take medications show the same degree of growth suppression. It has beens shown that people with ADHD, treated with medications, are less likely to become drug abusers than are people with ADHD who have not been treated with medications. Other than one unsubstantiated claim by a medical examiner who had a known political agenda, could you provide examples of cardiac arrest and sudden death among people in good health treated with ADHD medications, as none of us have ever heard of this or seen it substantiated.
You are correct that the benefits and risks need to be ***essed, and that each patient needs to be monitored to determine whether he or she is experiencing any of the various side effects of the medications, but in point of fact with regard to ADHD the benefits are great and the risks are tiny.
Now, as to Feingold, that has been tested and tested and tested, and the consensus after those many tests is that it does not do anything for persons with ADHD. Your Australian study is an anomalous result that might bear further investigation by people who are paid to do that sort of thing--it might be showing something real, in which case it would be of interest to find out what, or there might be something wrong with the experimental technique, but in either case it does not in and of itself constitute valid cause to attempt to treat ADHD with diet unless other methods have failed.
As for your statement in another post that people should not have to suffer if "drugs can soothe them", and that "people should use drugs as they need them but make it their goal to heal eventually and get off drugs as much as possible", most of us have not found the ADHD meds to be "soothing"--in fact we tend as a group to be more aware and more able to act effectively when properly medicated. As for it being one's goal to "heal eventually and get off drugs", I'd like to "heal eventually and get off gl***es", and someone I know would like to "heal eventually and get off insulin", and someone else I know would like to "heal eventually and get out of his wheelchair", but for any of those to happen, first the basic medical knowledge to bring about healing has to be discovered and then methods of applying that knowledge need to be developed. Until that happens, the myopic, hyperopic, and astigmatic among us will continue to wear gl***es or contacs, the diabetics will continue to shoot insulin, those with spinal injuries will continue to use wheelchairs, and those of us with ADHD will continue to use the various medications prescribed for that condition.
And no, I'm not going to provide you with references--if you read through the last year of postings you'll find ample references and much discussion of their validity or lack of same.
--
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--John Reply to jclarke at eye bee em dot net
J. Clarke nosp...@nospam1.nospam1
On what evidence do you base the conclusion that the medication in question was not doing the patient any good? Both my parents underwent chemotherapy, which is not a pleasant experience at all, and does harm just about everything, and other medications were prescribed to help them deal with the side effects of the chemotherapy. I guess in your case once it became clear that the chemotherapy was unpleasant and that its side effects needed to be treated with other medications, you would choose to discontinue the chemotherapy and die rather than taking "some other crap to cover up the side effects".
Look, you had a bad experience with a particular doctor. So did I. The solution is not to rail about how EEVIL the medical community is, it's to find a different doctor who is more competent.
--
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--John Reply to jclarke at eye bee em dot net
Joe Parsons j...@yankeemedia.net
Katie, I've just visited that page: Gary Null, the popular Pacifica Network talk show host, is a consumer advocate, investigative reporter, environmentalist and nutrition educator who has written more than 60 books on health topics. He says that, "You must be empowered before you can be whole," and he empowers his listeners with life-changing facts that promote wellness.
No problem with that at all AFAIAC, except that one might want to keep in mind that "investigative reporters" and talk show hosts often build audience by adding dramatic "spin" to their stories (cf John Morrow).
The page you refer to is titled "PSYCHIATRIC TREATMENT OF CHILDREN & ADOLESCENTS" and contains references and paraphrases to a number of journal articles about psychiatric medication. Although there are proper, verifiable cites, the editorial comments in the summaries would make me a bit suspicious.
I would *definitely* want to read the original articles, rather than relying on Mr. Null's comments about what the articles contained.
There are references to 60 journal articles. ***uming Mr. Null's comments are accurate, and given that we are discussing medication for ADHD, we can eliminate most of the references, which are about tricyclics, SSRIs and neuroleptics (antipsychotics). That leaves about a dozen references. Some of them are general speculations about possible overdiagnosis of "behavioural disorders," referring to news releases. Others cover potential interactions with other medications, notably drugs like clonidine.
None of this is anything new, and many of the regular participants in ASAD have doubtless read the original journal articles, preferring not to rely on someone's paraphrase or even of an abstract.
From what you've said here, Katie, I get the impression that you were harshly treated by mental health people. I am truly sorry to hear any of these kinds of reports, but it always concerns me when I see people trying to apply a broad brush to *all* aspects of mental health care, especially when there seems to be an attempt to instill an irrational fear about *all* psychoactive medications.
There is so much misinformation circulating about stimulant medications like methylphenidate, for example, that I am sure many people out of fear decline to seek help of any sort for themselves or their children.
You've referred to your own (apparent) tardive dyskinesia. [1] This is, in fact, an occasional side effect of some neuroleptics [2]. But referring to neuroleptic drugs (antipsychotics) in the same context as mild CNS stimulants like methylphenidate or d-amphetamine sulphate makes no sense--but it does an effective job of instilling fear. That's what the "church" of $cientology and their pet, Peter Breggin, are counting on.
That's why many of us here believe it is so important to bring actual facts to the table, rather than the manipulative, dishonest rhetoric of demagoguery.
Joe Parsons (show of hands: who actually read this far? :) ) [1] Tardive Dyskinesia: A late developing ("tardive") movement disorder.
Common tardive dyskinesia movements include, but are not limited to: facial tics, grimacing, eye blinking, lip smacking, tongue thrusting, moving one's head back or to the side, foot tapping, ankle movements, shuffled gait, and head nodding. Tardive dyskinesia may lead to very serious problems, such as respiratory interference, inability to eat, oral ulcerations, and difficulty standing/walking.
[2] Neuroleptics are antipsychotics sometimes used in treating schizophrenia.
Chlorpromazine, Haldol, Promazine and Risperdal are some of the more widely used. Neuroleptics actually seem to work in a fashion *opposite* to that of the common stimulants used for ADHD: they *decrease* the amount of available dopamine, while drugs like methylphenidate and d-amphetamine *increase* it.
This is one reason why a diagnosis of schizophrenia eliminates a diagnosis of ADHD.
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Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
nknisley nknis...@bcpl.net
To put this in more perspective, however, this is a support group for ADHD. AFAIK, *none* of the commonly used medications used for ADHD have TD as a potential side effect.
As for potential side effects of ADHD medication: If you read this newsgroup, you would know that there are probably *hundreds* of posts every year, mostly by trolls and other troublemakers, sounding an alarm about the side effects of ADHD medication. So, most of us who read ASAD are *well* aware of the potential side effects.
The side effects of ADHD medication have been discussed many, many times on ASAD.
As for these side effects, I think it's important for you to consider: * All medications, AFAIK, have side effects, even ones like acetaminophen and aspirin, which most people take without a second thought.
* For any medication, you have to look at how common the side effects are and how likely they are to occur. In many cases, the side effects listed are only "potential" side effects. Not everyone who takes that medication will have these side effects. Some listed side effects may be exceedingly rare. Some people can take the common ADHD medications without experiencing any side effects.
* For any medication, the risk/benefit factor must be taken into consideration. For many medications, the risk of taking the medications is small and outweighed by the benefits. In many cases, the risks of taking a medication are outweighed by the benefits of its use.
In the case of ADHD medications, the most commonly reported side effects by posters to ASAD seem to be loss of appetite, headaches and insomnia.
Some of these may go away after a while. In any case, the users seem to feel the benefits they get from these medications are worth the minor side effects.
I've read posts to ASAD in which parents reported that use of ADHD medications uncovered or exacerbated a child's tic problem. In some cases, the parents decided to change their child's medication or take their child off the medication. However, in other cases, the parents decided that the problems caused by ADHD were worse than any caused by the tics, and kept their child on the ADHD medication. IOW, the benefits of the medication for *that* particular child outweighed the consequences.
It is truly regrettable that you suffered so much as a result of medication, but I would guess that your doctors and parents treated you in what they believed, at the time, to be in your best interests.
You don't say how old you were when you were given the medication that caused TD, nor do you say what you were being treated for. Nor do you say when this occurred.
* I can remember a time when doctors and pharmacies didn't commonly tell patients of the potential side effects of any medication. That's changed for the better.
* If you were young when this occurred, you weren't mature enough to adequately weigh the risk/benefit factor of the medication: Were the consequences of my not being treated with medication so terrible that they outweighed the side effects? Parents must make these hard decisions. Most parents try to do what they feel is best for their child.
Yes, the TD was a terrible, terrible side effect, but wasn't your illness very serious too?
* Why would you "blame" yourself if you thought the TD symptoms were the results of your illness, not your medication? People don't usually "blame" themselves for the symptoms of their illnesses.
What makes you think they don't?
Nancy Unique, like everyone else
nknisley nknis...@bcpl.net
First, this is an old study. Seven years is a long time in the medical world, especially in the case of ADHD. New discoveries are announced almost weekly, it seems.
AND: there are other studies showing that ADHD medications do *not* cause: tics, suppress growth, or drug abuse (In fact, I believe there is a fairly recent study which shows that children treated with medication for ADHD are *less* likely to abuse drugs later!) I have yet to read about any verified instances of cardiac arrest (except, perhaps, of someone who had an underlying heart condition to begin with) or sudden death caused by ADHD medication taken as prescribed.
Another old study. Over 12 years old! And other studies have found the Feingold diet to be totally useless.
Really, you need to broaden your reading....
Nancy Unique, like everyone else
nknisley nknis...@bcpl.net
In some cases, parents *have* to trust to the doctors, since the doctors know more than we do.
You say that "as far as I know, they didn't even ask the doctor what was happening to me." So, you don't know what your parents knew and when they knew it. Correct?
I don't understand why you think that the symptoms of TD were "All my fault," even if you thought they were caused by your illness and not your medication. I don't think most people tend to blame themselves for their illnesses or the symptoms of the illnesses. Why would you?
Ah, so you *do* believe they *were* trying to act in your best interests?
Ah, so you believe that they *weren't* trying to act in your best interests? Instead, there was a "conspiracy" which somehow involved medicating you?
I'm curious, but you don't have to answer: Did you or did you not have a serious mental or emotional disability which required treatment?
How would treating you "cover up the alcohol problem" in your family?
Were the doctors involved in this conspiracy too? Were you parents able to convince the doctors that you were seriously ill and to treat you, when, in fact, there wasn't anything wrong with you? Or were the doctors incompetent?
Do you use "drugs"--ie, the illegal kind now? Do you abuse alcohol now?
If you don't think that people with emotional or mental disabilities should be treated with medication, how do you propose they "deal with" their problems?
Hardly. FDA approved medications are generally safe and effective when used as intended. Alcohol is neither.
I don't see taking a medication to treat a mental or emotional problem any differently than taking a medication to treat a purely "physical" problem. I put "physical" in quotes because I think the current weight of scientific evidence is that many, if not all, mental or emotional problems have "physical" causes--just like any other illness.
Do you think most people *like* to take medications and wouldn't "get off" them if they could?!! The fact is, they can't "get off" the medications because the underlying problem is still there.
A person treated with ADHD medications will still always have ADHD. Take the medication away, and the problematic symptoms return.
It is true that the ADHD medications don't "cure" ADHD. Nothing does.
But the medications truly do help, so why not use them?
How would you propose actually "correcting" or "curing" the life-long and often very serious problems caused by ADHD, if not by use of medication?
Nancy Unique, like everyone else
julian9 ...@aol.com (Julian9EHP)
[ . . . ] [ . . . ] Burning at the stake was more like 700 years ago. (Though many abbeys and nunneries in the Middle Ages gave food and free run to the mentally ill.
Called them "God's people.") Locking them up and chaining them to the walls was frequent until quite recently. They recently tore down a local hospital which had been around from the turn of the century. People could see the chains and manacles still on the walls of cells which had been idle for years, ever since the miracle drugs of the '50s. Whoo, the idea that mentally ill people could get _well_!
Who could have believed it in 1920? [ . . . ] [ . . . ] And how can we work now? Thank God we've moved out of the '20's!
E. P.
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