Care home/hospital negligence?
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"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
Hello. My Nan has been in a NHS Trust mental health unit for three weeks because she was depressed, and they wanted to try her on memory tablets.
Everything was going swimmingly, there had been a meeting and it was decided she could go home, with an increased care package from social services. She was supposed to come home in a couple of weeks.
Night before last, we had a call from Accident and Emergency. My Nan had dislocated her shoulder, and could we come down. We went, and they said that they couldn't get the joint to stay in, possibly because it had been out for a few days. She was taken to a ward, and was supposed to have an operation to put it back in next morning, and if necessary, tighten the ligaments so it stayed that way.
Next morning, we got a call from the ward saying that she was going back to the MHU. She hadn't had the operation. When questioned, the ward sister said it was because they had decided it was too severe. She had been sent back, with a foam sling, to wait for an appointment with a specialist.
Yesterday my Mum and I went to see her, she was chirpy, though in some pain, and was quite insistent she wanted her arm sorted. She knew the risks of the anaesthetic at her age (87). Her doctor rang the unit and my Mum said she wasn't happy. A meeting has been arranged for today.
My Nan cannot remember how it happened, only that she woke up in pain, a few days previously. This bears out what the orthopaedic doctor in A & E said about it being a few days old. She could still manage to dress herself, albeit very slowly, and had difficulty in the toilet and eating. By the time a member of staff noticed it, her hand was obviously swollen.
Our concerns are: How did her shoulder get injured? Previously we had noticed a large bruise underneath her upper arm, consistent with someone trying to lift her without a hoist.
Why no one noticed her injuries.
Why the operation wasn't done. - Have they decided that she is too much of a risk? The hospital has just received level 3 status - it wouldn't look good if she died on the table. She is in good health for her age. Would they have sent a 20 year old home?
Yesterday evening we got a call from hospital appointments - she has an appointment in 3 weeks time. We are concerned that they won't do the operation, or say that it has been left too long. If she cannot mange on her own, with reduced use of her arm, they may decide she has to spend the rest of her life in care, when before they were quite happy to send her home. All because she has got an injury no one can account for, which wasn't picked up on. All that is in the MHU incident book is 'sore arm'.
We are going to be very angry if because of their lack of action she ends up losing her independence.
What do you think we should do?
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Susan
"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
In addition, this is the result of the meeting today. At the meeting was the junior psychiatrist who saw my Nan's arm at the MHU, the ward manager at the MHU, plus another lady who oversee a number of MHU wards for the hospital trust.
First thing that happened was the doctor, who is a lovely person, who apologised profusely for missing the dislocation, admitting it was her fault. She was on on the verge of tears. I asked what actaully happened, how did she get the injury, could she have been lifted incorrectly, since the bruise would indicate this.
Initially they were at a loss. They said that the shoulder could have happened weeks ago. We said that was nonsense because she would have complained. We said it must have happened whilst she was there. I mentioned the bruise again, they didn't there had been one. The Trust woman asked the ward manager to check the notes, two days before the pain was first reported. Lo and behold, they found something that no one had mentioned or could answer before... she had a fall; and they used a hoist to get her up again. The Trust woman looked very smug, since I could not prove that it wasn't there from the start, and since no one had seen her fall, that *that* might have been the cause. [This was just after we had been discussing the fact that my Nan, like many other elderly, sometimes 'put' herself on floor, never hurt or dishevelled or anything.] Anyhow, there was pain reported in the incident book for a further three days, before it was mentioned to the junior psychiatrist. Since my nan had about 50% movement in her arm, the matter didn't go any further. Three days later a member of staff mentioned it again to the doctor when she next came round, and only then it was referred to A & E.
The doctor at the meeting also said that the Ortho doctor on the ward had made it pretty clear that he wasn't going to operate. The Trust woman went away and spoke to someone high up, and the Ortho specialist appointment is going to happen in the next few days. We expressed a desire that my nan still wants to go home, and they said it would still be possible, even with a dislocated shoulder.
The doctor has already admitted she made a mistake. However we don't want to sue the NHS for millions. She is really genuine, and we don't want to spoil her career. (She should have sent my Nan for an x-ray, or at thr least consulted an ortho doc on it.) We are more concerned about the MHU's procedures. ***uming the dislocation was caused by the fall, it must have caused some considerable pain. She was left in pain for another three days before seeing a doctor. That can't be right. If the psch doc had seen her then, early on, she might have had more swelling and been sent to the A & E, whereupon her shoulder might have been put in, and everything would have been fine. As it is, it was too late.
There is also the issue of the extra costs of people coming into to my Nan.
I don't think it is fair that she should have to pay for the extra care for a mistake on the part of the Trust. To this end I think it might be wise to consult a solicitor, even if it only makes the Trust change its reporting procedures.
What are your opinions?
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Susan
"Troy Steadman" troystead...@yahoo.co.uk
Doctors are humans under extreme pressure so they can easily make mistakes. What possible legal outcome do you think would make the slightest difference to your Nan? What can *you* can do for her, why is she depressed?
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derek d...@miniac.demon.co.uk
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:26:56 +0000 (UTC), "Troy Steadman" We had a relative (with dementia) fall in a care home. He suffered a broken femur so he had a replacement hip joint fitted. In hospital he got infected with MRSA and they had to remove his replacement hip joint so he didn't have one at all. And he *still* fell out of bed 18 times one Sunday afternoon.
Apparently it's not allowed to restrain old folks who are hurting themselves like this. Even in a MHU, hospital, or Care home they can't stop patients getting up and falling, it's just accepted this happens.
Sounds like the family are there, and already looking after her interests. Nothing is going to make a concrete improvement at this stage unfortunately.
Sounds as if she's starting with dementia "memory tablets". If so clinical depression is part of the symptoms. There are other tablets that can be prescribed for anxiety, and other symptoms but by and large they have side effects such as a shuffling tottering walk which leads to a yet increased risk of falling, and a generally "drugged" behaviour and appearance. You will see patients like this in the MHU.
DG
"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
The depression seems to have been fixed. She walks well with a frame, and was all set to go home. She is not doddery or frail. The ward manager spoke to us after the meeting and said he couldn't see why we shouldn't go for the operation, since she is not frail and could stand it. He admitted however he is not an orthopod.
We are concerned that she was left for three days with a dislocated shoulder without even seeing a doctor. When medical advice was sought, it was of the wrong kind - a junior psychiatrist. She has admitted the mistake she made, i.e., not getting advice, an x-ray, getting her to A & E., *but* I don't want her being made the scapegoat. The care/nursing staff were not qualified to make a decision about her shoulder, and since she was in pain and had limited use they should have got her seen straight away at A & E. Now she is back in the MHU, with a shoulder which is still dislocated. With shoulder dislocations, time is of the essence, it needs to be put back ASAP. She had to wait seven days, in pain.
Now it might be too late. We are not entirely convinced it *was* even a fall. When we originally asked, none of the staff knew about one. That was announced later. There was however a bruise consistent with being lifted under her armpit - a known cause of dislocation. If it has been 'filled in' after the event, we shall probably never know the cause. The fact remains that because they delayed in seeking medical attention, she might never have the full use of her arm, plus plenty of pain, and increased care costs.
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Susan
"Bluestars" bluestardotsix570f...@btopenworld.com
Having been in similar situations with my mother I would say your experience is about par for the course.
If you think there is a specific failing that caused the problem then you should make a formal complaint. The hospital will have a leaflet on 'How to make complaint'. This would be entirely internal and not involve any hearings, lawyers or appearances by yourself. It would mean the issue would be investigated by the hospital management and recommendations made to prevent a similar incident.
With regard to the responsibility of care to the patients, I understand that if the patient is 'on section', that is, sectioned under the Mental Health Act, they have much greater legal protection than if they are 'voluntary'. However I am not a lawyer so seek proper legal advice if you are taking this further.
As others have commented, psychiatric drugs, especially when first administered, tend to make people rather wobbly and prone to topple over. I believe the NHS recommendation for staffing levels in MHU is at the 1 to 7 ratio, so if your relative is at risk from falling, in my opinion, you should try to be there as much as possible to ensure this doesn't happen.
Roger
"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
This would be the minimum - some is certainly wrong with their accident reporting procedures.
further.
She is not sectioned. She went in so that she could try the anti depressants, although she wasn't particularly bad, and they want to ***ess the effect of the 'memory tablets', because she was forgetting to take them (obviously).
The ward manager who spoke to us, said that she is in the top 1-2% of all the people they had in there. He told us that she is not frail, and walks well. Like I said, I don't think it was a fall, I think she was lifted using a lift which has been discontinued. We can't prove that. If she had had a fall, and everything was done that could have been, then we would let the matter drop. Falls happen (if it was a fall). However, there was a time delay of 7 days before she went to casualty and had an x-ray, which meant her shoulder won't go back in, it looks likely they won't operate, and she has lost her independence because of it. We're not going for money for the sake of it, but if she needs extra care at home, it doesn't seem right that she should have to pay for it, when it was their mistake.
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Susan
"Troy Steadman" troystead...@yahoo.co.uk
IANAL and I hope one of the lawyers comes in and advises on this. I see where you are coming from, but *you* have suffered no loss so *you* cannot sue anyone. If years down the line your Nan can show she suffered a loss I daresay she can be compensated, but how realistic is that?
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"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
This is a good point. She does have mild dementia, which basically equals short term memory loss in her case. If it can't be done on her behalf, it would have to be explained to her. She is quite 'with it', as far as understanding things go. Would she still be able to put a case forward, if that's we/she decided to do? I think a mistake was made, does it matter who makes the claim?
I would be quite happy if they just sure the extra help was paid for. My mum however thinks that it is going to be more difficult, since she needs two hands to push herself up out of a chair, dress herself (things that need to hands, eg bra), in the toilet, etc. That means most of the time. Is four carers a day at different times going to be enough? In which case, she might have to go into a home and sell her house, which will last a couple of years in care. Basically, she will be forced into residential care *because* the staff at the MHU following bad procedures.
Personally I want the Trust to be accountable rather than the junior psychiatrist who admitted the mistake - it shouldn't have been reported to her in the first place.
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Susan
r ...@btinternet.com (Dr Rita Pal)
a) You are never going to get a Trust to fork out for her homecare.
b) What you require is an Occupational Therapy ***essment. They are very good at sorting out the alterations required for your nan. If she is incontinent, they would sort that out as well. I suggest you do request a Occupational Therapy ***essment. The way you can do this is i) Ask your GP ii) Ask the psychiatry team.
c) You then require a social worker to sort out her home care. All elderly people need an ***essment of their needs. Whoever cares for her will also need a carers ***essment.
d) You can request a second opinion for her shoulder. The only decent orthpod I know is a chap called M Justin Cobb. The GP can organise a second referral if you request it and depending on how understanding your GP is.
e) Organisations like http://www.crossroads.org.uk/ may be able to ***ist f) Age Concern are always quite helpful. You should contact them at http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/information.htm Finally, a word of note. Litigation is very long and hard. This does not solve the problems you actually have. The Trusts never have funding for their own patients nevermind sorting out your nans care.
What you require is funding from the Social Services to ensure she is taken care of well.
I wish you the best of luck Dr Rita Pal www.nhs-exposed.com
"Bluestars" bluestardotsix570f...@btopenworld.com
This is rather long but perhaps it helps to get the facts clear while they are fresh in your mind.
I am suggesting you make the formal complaint because if you don't you may be unable to take the matter further later. Possibly the Trust may say 'As no complaint was made at the time, no formal enquiry or report was made so we have no evidence to substantiate that any incident occurred at all.' The meetings you had on the Ward with the doctors and other staff were probably not properly minuted and don't exist in a formal sense.
I'm only guessing, but a claim made at a later date may be thrown out because you failed to give the Trust notice at the time so they could gather the facts while they were fresh. Could they reasonably be expected to defend a claim they were denied the opportunity of investigating at the time?
Here in Dorset you have six months from the date of the incident to make the complaint.
On the topic of acting for your Nan at some point in the in the future.
Quite possibly you have already got her to complete an 'Enduring Power Of Attorney document.
If not you should do so without delay. It will enable you to act for her legally and financially when she is no longer able.
The importance of this cannot be overstressed.
Without it you will be unable to act in important matters and you may find others making decisions with which you don't agree but can do nothing about.
I understand the requirements for competence for completing the form are not as strict as for other legal transactions.
Her short term loss should not be an impediment, the important thing is that she can understand that she is giving you the power to make decisions for her when she no longer can. From what you describe she is able to understand such things.
Advocacy.
An organisation called Rethink provides an advocacy service for people with mental health difficulties.
http://www.rethink.org/services/advocacy.html The service is locally based, so check if there is one near you.
They can provide free legal advice and, depending on the circumstances, a legally qualified person to represent you at hearings without charge.
Returning to the original incident, you say it was recorded in the book that after a fall she was lifted using a hoist.
I'm not clear if you think that incorrect use of the hoist was cause of the injury. Hoists usually lift around the seat of the patient, not by hauling them up by their arms.
Use of a hoist is a two person job and if injury resulted it's not very likely it would be easily 'covered up'. As falls *must* be reported at the time the staff involved would probably have made the report of the fall.
If the arm was pulled out when she was lifted up your Nan would likely have cried out in pain and this would have been followed up especially when it was noticed that she had difficulty using her arm for eating, and continued to complain of discomfort. Also I would have thought that later -at bedtime- your Nan would say 'look at this huge bruise where my shoulder is hurting'.
However you say no report of pain was made for another two days. From this the fall sounds an unlikely cause of the dislocation You only mention the bruise in p***ing. Elderly people have a tendency to bruise very easily, it can tell you quite a lot about how the injury happened. If the arm was pulled out by the straps of a hoist the tell tale strap marks would show, and if she was pulled by her arms -enough to pull it out of joint - there would probably be bruises on her lower arm where she was held.
Patients are inclined to mention aches and pains to nursing staff rather than suffer in silence, so I would guess from your story that the nursing staff did their job properly and recorded the pain when it was first mentioned and that somehow the arm was dislocated on that day.
It appears from what you say, that, however it happened, the pain was first recorded two days after the fall and then for a further for three days but nothing was done. It was then a further three days before the doctor was prompted about it, making it eight days after the fall and six days after pain was first reported before the doctor took action.
Have I got that right?
I'm not clear why the house doctor -the lovely person you refer to - who probably visits the Ward most days didn't respond to the reports in the book about your Nan's pain. That is what the books for- the nursing report for the doctor to follow up, so from what you say it looks as if the doctor was not quite diligent enough.
To be fair the doctor was probably more concerned about getting the medication levels correct for patients than worrying about about aches and pains of which plenty abound in a ward for the elderly.
I hope this helps Roger.
"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
[Enduring power of attorney] My Mum has part one - she can pay the bills and collect her pension, etc., but I don't *think* it allows her to make legal decisions on her behalf. She hasn't been to the COurt of Protection toget complete control.
We'll check this out.
[About the incident] We noticed a bruise on the underside of her arm, next to her body. It covered at least two thirds from elbow to armpit - pretty noticeable. This was about a week after she went in.
The first time we went back into the MHU after the dislocation/hospital visit, we asked the staff how she managed to dislocate her shoulder, nobody seemed to know. Whilst we were there, the junior doctor rang, and wanted to talk to my Mum. My Mum said she wasn't happy, and the doctor said, OK let's have a meeting.
The next day, as described on the other posts, there was the doctor, the ward manager, and someone from the Trust. No minutes were taken. The doctor apologised for not taking Nan to x-ray. The Trust woman asked the doctor how long my Nan had reported pain for and she replied two days. The doctor saw her on a Friday. The Trust woman said to check the log book for two days before (Wednesday). Lo and behold, there it was. The Ward Manager clearly had never read it before, and neither had the doctor, who apologised again and said that she should have checked the notes. I find it difficult to believe that none of the staff had previously read what was over a week old already.
The log book said that my Nan had had a fall, was lifted using a sling hoist, and had complained of shoulder pain, but could use it. That was a Wednesday. There were repeated reports of pain until Friday, when she saw the doctor. The doctor moved her arm around, but didn't send her to Casualty; this wasn't done until the late evening of the following Monday (reported by a member of staff to the doctor, because she didn't like the look of it). Casualty confirmed it had been dislocated for at least three days, and couldn't get the arm back in. Her lower arm and hand were very swollen and she had a large bruise on her lower under forearm. We can't say though if these were due to the 'reducing' process though.
There are two issues: Firstly was the fall the cause of the dislocation? We mentioned the early bruise at the meeting, but no-one seemed to know about it. Had she fallen, but someone helped her up using the 'Australian shoulder lift', a lift banned now (but quick and easy to do) because it causes bruising and dislocated shoulders?
Secondly, why wasn't she taken to Casualty straight away? If even they did use the hoist correctly, surely she would have been some obvious pain and deformity? Why did the staff wait two-three days before mentioning it to the doctor?
Something doesn't add up.
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Susan
Peter Parry pe...@wpp.ltd.uk
Dislocation of the shoulder in elderly patients can be caused by relatively trivial events especially if there is any osteoporosis present. It's quite likely no one does know what caused it as the event may not have been noticeable and the dislocation may not have been immediately painful.
Regrettably its quite easy to believe. Especially as your Nan was a patient responding well and therefore not someone who required many changes in their treatment. A busy doctor on an undermanned psychiatric ward won't necessarily check the notes each round if the patient is mentally obviously on the mend (even though they should).
Possibly - but so could many other things. You will never know.
The banning of all manual lifting in hospitals was because of the prevalence of injury to nursing staff not to patients. The Australian lift was not singled out for this treatment, indeed it is considered to be one of the safer lifting techniques. However, the chance of finding two nurses or care ***istants daft enough to go against their training and hospital policy to lift someone off the floor when a hoist is available are not great.
The Australian lift requires two nurses and is used to move people from a lying to a sitting position in bed. It would be highly improbable that it could be used to raise someone from the floor as the lifter must be lower than the patient and the most you could do would be to raise the patient to a sitting position. What made you think this lift could have been used?
It's quite common for neither to be present in elderly patients when an "easy" dislocation happens. If the dislocation did occur in the fall it could have been masked by general confusion. It is also possible that the dislocation did happen some time previously and was exacerbated in the fall.
It all seems perfectly normal. There is almost certainly no conspiracy or alteration of records/filling them in later. There is simply the standard of care the government think the elderly are worth.
A complaint will cause the hospital to look at its procedures - but may not lead to any changes in them, the procedures might be OK but their application faulty. If this is the case those responsible will be disciplined as the hospital sees fit.
Suing will cause great glee to lawyers, they can drag NHS cases out for years and they are good earners, and little else. The only certainty is that your Nan will be dead of old age before the case is finished. You will certainly not get the Trust to pay for enhanced continuing care in her home.
From what you have described the error is the junior doctors, she is trained as a conventional doctor first and a psychiatrist afterwards so should, as she admitted to you, have spotted the injury earlier and taken more appropriate action. She will probably be held responsible not as a great cover up or as a scapegoat but simply because she is the one responsible.
From what you have explained there are no obvious errors in the Trusts procedures. An accident happened at some time which caused you Nans shoulder to become dislocated. The injury was missed by both nurses and her doctor (which isn't that unusual in dislocations with elderly patients) and when it was noticed the doctor responsible for your Nans treatment took the wrong actions. The mistake, and the responsibility for it, is primarily the doctors. If you really want to sue anyone the doctor is the one to go after.
However from what you have said earlier it won't make the doctor any more aware of her error or more careful in the future as she already knows what she failed to do and is obviously not going to make that mistake again.
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Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
I see what you are saying and we are unlikely to sue However, the staff *did* write/look in the book, because it reports that my Nan had pain, for the two days before she saw the doctor (but the same report *hadn't* been read by the ward manager and the doctor, who you think would have read it, especially prior to going into a meeting...) That pain was following a fall.
Given that she was having difficulty in using it, I think it should have been followed up sooner.
As for changing things after the event, my Mum used to work in one of the Social Services homes, and she said it went on all the time. If a member of staff didn't use a hoist, they still wrote it in that they did.
I could have got the name of the lift wrong, it is one where the patient's weight is taken under the arm/armpit. I read it at several web site whilst researching dislocations in elderly patients. I know that they happen more easily in elderly patients. The bruise she had before the alleged fall led me to believe that someone on the staff had been helping her up under her arm, at some point.
It just seems so unfair that the delay in her going to casualty meant her shoulder not going back in, which means she may now not be going home and maintaining her independence. None of it was her fault, yet she is the one who has to suffer. It wouldn't be so bad if she did have bad dementia, at least then she wouldn't know what was going on...
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Susan
Peter Parry pe...@wpp.ltd.uk
I'm not sure which book you mean. If it was the ward accident book the doctor would not normally ever look at this. The ward manager should - but not every day unless someone verbally reports an accident has occurred (which the nursing staff should have done to the senior nurse at the very least at their shift handover).
Quite possibly - however its always easier to see what should have been done after the event than before it.
What goes on in the few remaining social services homes and what goes on in hospitals is, thankfully, still quite different. There are three types of residential care home registrations. Residential care homes take patients who are basically well and able to wash/dress themselves but are frail and who need a protected environment. Really it is hotel accommodation. Nursing Homes take those who need nursing care in addition to the protected environment. Dual registered homes take both cl***es of people, usually in separate wings within the same building. (As an aside if your Nan ever does need residential care always chose a dual registered home - if her condition worsens she can move from residential to nursing care without having to move home and lose all her friends).
Residential homes don't normally have to deal with things like patient lifting and staff are all too often poorly trained. The standards in dual registered and nursing homes is usually higher -
but is variable.
Manual lifting in a hospital is rare - the staff don't tolerate it these days as they are all too aware of the risk to themselves.
The Australian lift involves putting the lifters shoulder under the arm of the person being lifted and the two lifters arms being linked across the patients chest - but you can't do anything more than lift the patient to a sitting position. To raise them up from the floor would require a cradle or bear hug lift. Neither of these involve lifting by the arms (indeed no lifting technique taught to health care workers for decades involves taking a patients weight only on the arms to hoick them off the floor). The cradle lift was the original method used to lift a patient where a handler stood on either side, clasped their wrists under the patient's thighs and behind their back. It is perfectly safe for the patient but carries a high risk for the lifters.
Elderly people bruise easily. If the bruise was asymmetric (one side only) its unlikely to be from a lifting operation. Far more likely is that it was caused by someone holding her arm, perhaps to catch her as she stumbled or that she has banged it in the bath. Even something as simple as holding her arm to steady her could lead to dislocation if she has osteoarthritis.
Quite possibly it had no effect. The dislocation might have been of much longer duration and exacerbated by the fall or whatever. Even if she had gone immediately there is a reasonable chance the shoulder could not have been relocated without surgical intervention as closed reduction of shoulder dislocation in the elderly is difficult and only works in about half the cases it is tried in. The time element becomes more important only after about 2-4 weeks so a few days probably made little difference.
Surgical intervention is risky as it is a complex procedure because of the altered position of arteries and nerves and because of internal scarring and tightening of tissues. There is a balance of risk against benefit, and as the consequences of leaving the shoulder in a dislocated position are often fairly small it is often the preferred solution. This is particularly so in a mildly demented patient where the effects of the anaesthetic and stress of the operation can often lead to a sharp decline in mental function even if the operation is a success. There is a lot you can do to make sure she has the best chance of doing this. As has been said earlier make sure she has a social worker ***igned and make sure they are competent. Most social workers are utterly useless parasites, don't be afraid of getting rid of a few until you find a p***ably competent one. Make sure she gets visits from the Occupation Therapists and that any aids she needs are provided. If she needs any special ones there is a charity called REMAP which will have a local team the OT's should know about - it's made up of mainly retired engineers who build special to type aids for people (www.remap.org.uk).
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Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
"Bluestars" bluestardotsix570f...@btopenworld.com
Peter Parry is respected for his sound advice in uk.d-i-y group and it sounds as if he has had inside experience here. It may not be the advice you were hoping for but I think he is giving you the true situation.
FWIW and IMO the weakness of you situation is you do not know how the arm was dislocated and you cannot say for absolute certain when it happened.
If the doctor was at fault it was an act of incidental omission rather than a positive act that went wrong.
For the future, the only way you stand any chance of knowing what a happens when your Nan is in hospital, is to make sure that one member of your family spends time with her every day. I know we all have busy lives to lead, and you can't be there all the time, but at least you will know about it on the day.
Roger
"S.Boardman" ab...@dont.spam.me
Thank you both for your comments. I think we've pretty much had our questions answered. We have an appointment with my Nan's consultant - he's going to explain why he said he won't fix her shoulder in surgery. We are keeping an open mind about this. We've given up on litigation. If we make a formal complaint about their procedures, will the junior doctor get her career ruined? We don't want to do that.
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Susan
Peter Parry pe...@wpp.ltd.uk
You can make a complaint about the incident and it will be investigated. You cannot exclude the doctor from any complaint. From what you have said so far (which of course may be incomplete) the fault appears to be not one of procedure but primarily a mistake by the doctor who had responsibility for her.
Such a finding will not significantly affect her career prospects and may indeed be a salutary lesson - although from what you have said she appears to have learned that herself.
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Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
Jon J...@jongru.n0spam.freeserve.co.uk
I don't suppose you will ever find out how the injury occurred. It could have been a fall, or it could have been careless handling by a member of staff (either whilst attaching her to a hoist or whilst helping her out of bed) or it could be inexplicable. There is no need to "give up on litigation". You are entitled to the best explanation they can give, and they have an obligation to give such an explanation. The culture nowadays in medical establishments is to give a full and frank explanation and even to tell the patient that they may have a good claim, if the doctor believes his colleagues have fallen below the standard expected of them.
However, obtaining compensation for the patient is of limited value to her. Presumably it will only go into the bank. A claim for compensation will have no effect whatsoever on the careers of the medical staff, and it will have no effect on the quality of care in the future. The staff will be barely aware that you are pursuing a claim - that will be handled (probably) by the NHS Litigation Authority.
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Jon Useful legal links: http://www.jongru.freeserve.co.uk
Peter Parry pe...@wpp.ltd.uk
On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:54:38 +0000 (UTC), Jon They appear to have done just that. The doctor responsible has said it was her fault.
So apart from lining the voluminous pockets of yet another avaricious scumbag solicitor quite what would litigation achieve in this case?
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Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
Jon J...@jongru.n0spam.freeserve.co.uk
Empowering is, I think, the appropriate buzz-word. Patients and their families often feel belittled and patronised by medical staff. This feeling is sometimes, unknown to them, reciprocated. The staff feel that they are overworked and har***ed and bullied by (some) patients and families. Nevertheless, a patient might gain a sense of achievement and satisfaction by pursuing a claim for compensation and impoverishing the hospital's funds which would otherwise be spent on patient care.
As you imply, the costs (the solicitor's income from the case) will often greatly exceed the damages.
But if the doctors and administrators appear to be ignoring reasonable requests for information (which may well not be the case in this particular case) the main way of forcing them to give information is to follow the pre-action protocol for clinical negligence claims.
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Jon Useful legal links: http://www.jongru.freeserve.co.uk
Peter Parry pe...@wpp.ltd.uk
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:22:13 +0000 (UTC), Jon I presume empowerment means you pay lots of money to be belittled and patronised by a solicitor instead?
I can't say I know of anyone who considers giving money to solicitors gives them a sense of achievement. Now_taking_ money from solicitors is a different matter entirely, that's fun.
As far as getting any sense of achievement is concerned the complainant normally wants a fast resolution of the problem. On the other hand speedy and non controversial resolution of the situation is the last thing their solicitor wants.
Which of course stops all information flow because the first thing the Medical Defence Union do is forbid the doctor to talk to the complainant. Instead of two people talking to one another two sets of liverflukes are put in between them, both of whom want nothing more than for the case to go on for ever. The complainants solicitor because it's more money for them, the NHS solicitor in the hope the patients dies.
Some time ago an elderly lady died in hospital, she was 93, had been chronically ill for some years and simply died of old age. Her granddaughter couldn't accept that Granny was dead and that it was natural. She engaged a Solicitor of the worst sort who made all sorts of completely fabricated allegations of the old lady being starved, denied water, beaten up by staff - you name he alleged it.
There were very few records of her death, she had simply died at night in her sleep and was discovered by a nurse some hours later.
That was turned into claims of a cover up. Records had been destroyed it was alleged. No post mortem had been done (there was of course no need for one). The whole saga was kept running by this disgusting piece of pondlife for over 6 months. It consumed hundreds of hours of NHS staff work and made him many thousand of pounds. One day he simply dropped it all without giving any reason - simply stopped communicating.
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Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
Benedict White bened...@myrealbox.com
Have you managed to do that?
Kind regards
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Benedict White
Peter Parry pe...@wpp.ltd.uk
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:05:47 +0100, Benedict White Yes - on the two occasions I have had to use solicitors for house purchase they both managed to do the job with such monumental incompetence that they ended up paying me. One in particular had an interesting complaints policy - if you complained they stopped communicating with you and demanded all letters be sent via their solicitors - who also refused to communicate "as it might be prejudicial to say anything".
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Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
Benedict White bened...@myrealbox.com
Care to mention any names, via private email?
ROTFLMAO!
Did you take them to court?
Kind regards
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Benedict White
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