Brat Camp on Channel 4
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George Russell grrus...@whsmithnet.co.uk
I've just watched the Brat Camp show on C4, and was wondering what other AFPer's thought of the kids, the show, and the whole approach to parenting?
I found it all rather disturbing. My imagination was going overdrive during the show. What if I was there? What would I do? How would I react to the regime imposed by a bunch of weird american fascistic hippies? ( A wild sterotype, but could you really keep a straight face and call someone Stone Bear? Take a 15 mile hike for the reward of a Gatorade?
(an american sugary drink?). All this in an Utah desert, ~200 miles from civilisation, where you were taken blindfolded (albeit briefly!). The custodians also appear to have the right to use physical restraint - up to threatening to remove piercings (how? from a guys tongue!).
To my understanding, the scheme seems to be as follows. If you have a 'problem child' (sterotypically, with piercings, unontrolled anger outbursts up to physical violence, into heavy metal & drugs) then why not send them off to the wilderness to rough it till they become 'better people'.
I'm torn between horror at the approach and at the subjects of the approach. They seem not to be a terribly nice bunch of people; but the idea of delegating parental authority to other people for some rigourous discipline seems like paying them to take the problem of their hands. It strikes me as 'I failed as a parent, and I'll buy my way out of it'.
As I recall being 16-17 ( the ages of the children sent out ) I wonder what controls, what appeals does someone in that situation have? What rights?
FWIW, in Scotland you could be married, leave home, join the army, and work - frankly, be an adult, by that age. At the same time, the attitude seems to be that as a child, you can be sent their without your consent, and once there, remain till 18 or once you have jumped through all the reuqired hoops.
It worries me that parents may essentially pay to get their children taken off their hands, and that the core criteria for being sent are that your parents don't want you around. If you have a bad temper, like heavy metal, dress a sterotypical manner, and don't get on with your parents ( for whatever reason ) - is that sufficient cause to be coerced into such a program?
So while I'm all for helping people with the problems of drugs, abusive behaviour et al, I find the kill or cure mentality somewhat disturbing.
The site URL is http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/B/brat_camp/index.html Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Is the consensus that such things are OK, or is anyone else worried about acceptance of such drastic measures?
Cheers George (somewhat unsure what to make of this idea).
"Orjan Westin" nos...@cunobaros.demon.co.uk
It's a traditional English thing, AIUI, commonly called either "public school" or "military commission".
I didn't see it, I have no informed opinion, but considering that these young people will have "been on the telly!!!!" and the value many gives that nowadays, for some reason, I imagine they'll get over it. If they survive.
I take it these are city-kids?
And they all fit into that stereotype? No unpleasant skaters, homeboys or essex girls? In that case they'll at least be suffereing with people they can connect with.
No, I don't think so. Heck, I've had enough friends who fitted that stereotype to know that what "adults" see is not what is. But I thought the tv producer was paying? And I hardly think the kids have been filmed without consent, as I imagine they'd have grounds for complaints if it shows them in a bad light.
Personally, I find the "Let's make a reality-tv show about... um.... people having a crap! Yay!" mentality very disturbing, although not as disturbing as the fact that people watch and enjoy it.
Orjan
Eric Jarvis w...@ericjarvis.co.uk
read Find Me, the play by Olwen Wymark it was ever thus
--
eric - afprelationships in headers www.ericjarvis.co.uk "live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Beth Winter bwin...@extenuation.net
I haven't seen the program, but there's certainly worse things out there. I've read about a program where punishments extend to having the kid lie face-down, unmoving on a concrete floor, with half-hour breaks every six hours, for up to eight months if they don't "repent their sins"... All with the consent of their parents, too, which frankly scares the hell out of me. If there's one thing I regard as a biological imperative, it's protecting children.
--
Beth Winter The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/> "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
kilyth_at_beer_dot_ ...@hotmail.com (kilyth)
Some of the nicest people I know are covered in peircings and into heavy metal and drugs, not the violence though.
I see what you're saying but I suppose that these people just feel that they don't have the respect from their kids to lay down the disciplin like the disciplinarians in boot camp.
Well, that's what they are, drastic measures. For people who are at the end of their rope with the behaviour of their children. I find it more worrying that they have left it so long to disciplin their children that these measures are needed. Surely if a consistant measure of disciplin is in place from day one these measures wouldn't be needed.
I don't think that these boot camps are a cure by any manner of means, I think it's much more "I'd better watch myself or they'll send me back" rather than "My parents deserve my respect." BTW I am speaking mainly about my own experiences (the wee snapshots of my brother's' home lives are not exaggerated), and I in no way claim to be an expert on childrearing. However most of the parents I meet could do with being sent to a boot camp to learn how to parent.
It is possible to be a great, loving mother and a terrible parent.
Kilyth (spare the rod, spoil the child, as they say)
"David Chapman" jedit_ojan...@hotmail.com
Christianity's gone downhill if Hell now gives you half-hour breaks and parole.
--
Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else.
daibhidchened ...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach)
It is. Unfortunately some people have strange ideas about what they need protection from, and how to go about it.
I didn't see the programme either, but the trailer reminded me of the line from the Simpsons: "You will be broken down to the level of infants, then rebuilt as functional members of society, then broken down once more, then lunch, then, if there's time..."
--
Dave The Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc Four-and-twenty Lib Dems came down from Inverness, And when the vote was over there were four-and-twenty less.
-Rory Bremner, 7/3/04
Beth Winter bwin...@extenuation.net
Ooh, found the article. Observer, a year ago.
<http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,987172,00.html>
--
Beth Winter The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/> "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
"Bigjobs" BigjobsDEL...@NSPAMblueyonder.co.uk
<>...
A relative of mine who shall remain nameless, as a social worker who was confronted with a mother telling her that she wanted her 12 year old son taken into care as he was unmanageable, asked her what he does when asked to do something, "he tells me to **** Off" was the reply.
"And what did he do when he was 5?, why didn't you do something about this behaviour when he was young enough to learn. Instead of letting it get to this stage and having to request the drastic measure of a children's home?" The answer is quite simple. When he was 5, it was easy for the mother to let this behaviour slip, easier than dealing with it properly anyway, by promising him a treat if he complied.
As he got older the treats needed to be bigger, so the mother couldn't afford them, the son didn't get them. This upset him, so without the treats he wouldn't do anything at all. That is when it really affected her quality of life, and she needed something doing. If she had dealt with this behaviour properly when he was a young child then it would never had turned out so drastic in the end.
It comes down to people having kids without actually thinking about what it means. I had kids early, never really thought that much about it to tell you the truth. But thank your god that my mother was around. She sort of beat me into a goodish father, but there are people who have kids for all the wrong reasons, who see the kids as a millstone around their neck. Who couldn't give a damn what the kids are up to as long as they aren't bothering them. It is only a problem when the child upsets their way of life, by not doing as they are told or whatever, that they try to make them behave, and by that time it is too late.
BTW, she wasn't allowed to put him into care in the end.
Bigjobs
mddest ...@aol.comlemon (Rhiannon S)
That is one scary article. I mean, really. If any prison did that then it would be shut down in a heartbeat. I wonder what the longer term consequences of that could be?
--
Rhiannon http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/ "The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even write a crime report about them." Aubrey on remaining at liberty www.somethingpositive.net
Torak and...@andrew-perry.com
On the whole, I'm in favour of compulsory military service. Of course it doesn't work for everyone, but on the whole I find that it's great for people's self-esteem, behaviour, bearing... It's great. Unless you're in America, of course, where you get told that you're maggots.
Torak and...@andrew-perry.com
For certain values of "protecting", I'm sure you'll agree. What you described is ludicrous, and certainly not on. But some form of discipline needs to be imposed - although I'd lend my voice more to the "Drop and give me twenty" variety.
Simon Waldman swald...@firecloud.org.uk
I cannot imagine many things that I'd have hated more.
I can see an element of value in reminding people that living in a country can't be all take and no give (apart from taxes), but perhaps military service could be one of a number of options? Maybe that wouldn't work, I haven't thought it through very much.
--
"A word to the wise is unnecessary." -- La Rouchefoucauld
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Simon Waldman, UK email: swald...@firecloud.org.uk http://www.firecloud.org.uk/simon
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Beth Winter bwin...@extenuation.net
Offhand, heavy PTSD, co-dependency and a phobia of making one's own decisions. Just what the doctor ordered for the heir to someone's business empire, apparently...
Some people are truly too dumb to have kids.
--
Beth Winter The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/> "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Beth Winter bwin...@extenuation.net
Military discipline is one thing - various military academies have managed to put out remarkable individuals in about equal proportion to a normal population; that's a system that can be firm-but-fair. Hell, when I'm babysitting an obnoxious kid, I impose rules and reasonable sanctions if such rules are broken. Deliberate permanent psychological and physical damage to a child is truly another cup of tea.
--
Beth Winter The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/> "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Alec Cawley a...@spamspam.co.uk
The trouble is that, as far as I know, the military are not in favour of it. Basically, it takes longer to convert raw boys into minimal soldiers than the acceptable time for military service. Modern military situations are too complicated, and hardware too destructive, to let anyone out on any of the *real* jobs the military do with less than two years training. Any compulsory service would have to be in make-work units - and the Army doesn't think that is their job.
--
@lec ?©awley
"Norssi" nor...@mbnet.fi
In Finland we have a system where all men aged 17-28 must go through compulsory military service or civil service. In my "tour of duty", I saw several "mommys dearests" taken down a peg or twenty. After six months a complete bastard could become a decent person.
"Norssi" nor...@mbnet.fi
By the way, guess what happens if you refuse to go...
Go to jail. Go directly to jail, do not p*** go, do not collect 200$.
cMAD c...@freenet.de
The only problem I'd have shooting such parents in the stomach would be that their suffering would end after only 12 hours.
They deserve being flayed alive.
cMAD
Nebula GlowingEyeNeb...@yahoo.co.uk
I realise I'm a few butties short of a picnic on a lot of occasions, but I thought for a long time that Finnish national service was elective and that Finns chose to go because of their strong sense of nationalism.
I still haven't worked out where the idea originally came from. As I said a few butties short...
Nebula
Lora D lo...@eudoramail.com
I am going to carefully and by extreme effort avoid a lengthy, screaming rant and merely say that violence teaches violence. It is not OK to hit people, especially people who are littler than you. It is not OK to use force to get your own way -- the name for that is bullying. And it is not OK to abdicate one's responsibility to teach children better ways to solve problems, even though it takes a lot more time, attention, and effort.
"Being good" (or being good at not getting caught) to avoid punishment doesn't seem to me to have much to do with learning actual self-control, or how to get along well with people and live a good and ethical life.
Don't say that lightly. Those who say it are generally those who don't care to put forth the effort of nurturing kind, respectful children who are good company. That really can't be beaten into them. Good parenting takes far more courage than that.
--
Lora in MT reply-to address is real
kilyth_at_beer_dot_ ...@hotmail.com (kilyth)
You see? No respect. When they're little it's easy to let them off ("Ah he's only five") One of the Bro's gf's kids eats only what he wants to, e.g. pizza and chicken nuggets, and she lets him away with this nutritionally incomplete cos it's easier than making him eat proper food. I think it'd be easier to let him starve. I'm actually taking bets on him being done for nicking cars when he's older.
What's the line in TOT? "If you are obedient there may be the brown material, if you are disobedient, there will be the axe." Not word for word but you get the idea.
Kilyth
daibhidchened ...@aol.com (Daibhid Ceannaideach)
And who said it? Was it a nurturing person attempting to produce intelligent well rounded people? I seem to recall not, actually. I seem to recall it being a raving nutter attempting to impose his capital-A Authority.
There's a difference between teaching kids the difference between right and wrong and punishing them. The latter is only slightly harder than letting them do what they want. The former actually requires communication with them. And *two-way* communication, for preference.
Unless, of course, you *want* to raise a terrified automaton who will never ever have an opinion of his or her own. Which many parents do, apparently.
--
Dave The Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc Four-and-twenty Lib Dems came down from Inverness, And when the vote was counted there were four-and-twenty less.
-Rory Bremner, 7/3/04
Ailbhe ail...@lists.ossifrage.net
Thank you. I will exercise similar self-restraint.
And more hard work.
A.
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