Need a basic setup for a teen camp
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"Tony" tony...@shaw.ca
Hello, I have to light a small stage for a camp site. Stage is a tiny 20ftW x 15ft deep. There will be no major productions. Some entertainment during a meal, and some intro acting/drama cl***es. I am wondering what I need to make this work not cheap, but well. Being a non profit and amature I don't expect an experienced lighting person at the controls, nor a chance to upgrade. I have only one chance to do it right.
1. I plan to get new or used ETC pars and source 4s, so I am wondering how many I need of each and total. What do you think of the Parnel?
2. How many dimmer channels do I need? Can I just get a 6 channel and put 2 lights on each, or do I need 12 channels?
Tony
"Ynot" t...@abbeytheatre.co.uk
OK What sort of power do you have available?
Is it 'close' enough to buildings with mains, or will you be using generator(s)?
If gennies, then make sure you have a smoothed output.
With this in mind, how much current can you draw? This will define how many lanterns you can use.
When you say you only want them for "Some entertainment during a meal, and some intro acting/drama cl***es" exactly WHAT do you want to achieve? If it's just to illuminate the stage in order for the audience to see, then I'd say your 12 pars/S4's would likely be adequate. Anything involving colour will of course push up the lantern count, and dimmer count, thus cost. I find Parnels are great for on-stage work and general wash light - I have 6 in my rig, and have just bought 6 more. As for pars and S4 profiles, keep them out front in general (tho using the wide lens in the S4Par makes it not a bad on-stage lamp).
Again, control is dependant upon what you wish to do.6 channels of control over 12 lanterns is fine if, again, all you want is general illumination.
The fancier the plot, the more channels you'll need to cater for it.
It sounds like you're outside with this - is the weather going to be an issue? Have you plans for wet stuff falling from the sky, or are you in one of those places that doesn't 'do' rain....? 8-) (Notes the .ca in your e-mail...) Just a starter....
Ynot
Christian Marg christian.m...@tu-clausthal.de
Hello...
That depends on how fine grained your control needs to be an how many watts each light has: If you'd have a dimmer pack that can handle 2Kw load per Channel you may of course put 2 500w lights on one channel (since they only need 1kw).
So what you need to look for is the per Channel power rating and the overall power rating (to be sure you can put all channels to 100% in case it is needed).
bye Christian PS: Please excuse my bad english if I made language mistakes in my posting...
sathibou ...@yahoos.com (sarah thiboutot)
IME, parnels have all the shortcomings of pars and fresnels, and the benefits of neither. They're p***able for wash/work light, but s4PAR WFLs are better.....more lumens, more even coverage, more controllable.
"Dennis Schneider" dennis_schneider...@NOTonpoint.mv.com
Tony, (I'm ***uming this is INDOORS?) Suggestions: 1. S4PARs have no adjustments. PARNELs do. Adjustments = moving parts = stuff to break in your environment. Stick with the basic S4PAR for washes.
2. Dimmer systems come in "modulo 6" (6-pack, 12-pack, 24-pack) - so dimmer boards in this league do as well. A board like the Leprecon LP612 is likely to be all that you need (make sure you get the DMX version!).
http://www.leprecon.com/product_set.htm 3. Consider electrical needs and cabling - and costs. You're going to pay an electrician to install stuff - and that you want the most flexibility you can get. I suggest you do not "begin life" for this system with two instruments on a circuit. Use so-called "truss dimmers" like the Electrol Anaconda (http://www.electrol.net/anaconda.htm)or Leprecon 340/360. These are just interconnected with DMX cable and are easy to shift around. This avoids many runs of dimmer channel AC cabling.
Have the electrician install power outlets at the pipe(s) where you'll be putting the front lighting and at the upstage L&R corners where you might have side/back light. You'd then just plug the truss dimmers into those and put lights wherever you like.
4. 20x15 is not a vast space - consider 3 instruments out in front per wash times 2 washes and 4 instruments in the rear - two at each far upstage corner - for back/side wash. If you stay with all S4PARs (or you could try Behringer's knock-off -
(http://www.behringer.com/UP1000/index.cfm?lang=eng)- which are incredibly cheap @ US$80 LIST! but I have no idea if they are "worth it"). This would have you at 10 instruments with two channels of dimmer left for stage practicals like a desk lamp on a set, etc.
With this type of system you can add "stuff" pretty easily and still keep it simple.
YMMV, Best, Dennis
"tpp" tpproducti...@charter.net
You will be much better off if you go with 6" Fresnels. If you had six with 500 watt bulbs you'll get some versatility and you'll get a nice even wash. I have - and use all of the instruments in this thread and I'm sure you'll be much happier given the area you're trying to light. Pars have an elliptical pattern that will likely work against you unless you can get far enough back, and parnels do not have the spread of either a wide par or a Fresnel.
As a bonus, the Fresnel will be considerably cheaper.
"Hammond Chamberlain" bobos...@xmission.com
Basic need for a teen camp: 6-8 generic teenagers 1- Hero 1- masked psycho killer *smile* ...
Peter rpeREMOVETHIS...@zianet.com
While I dearly love my fresnels (particularly my 8" 1KW instruments), I have to disagree with this advice as the basis for a simple rig in a space which is unlikely to have power to burn. Fresnels as a family of instruments are terribly inefficient in the lumen /watt department. With the S4 PARs (or conventional PARSs if price is an issue) you get lots of lumens/watt but sacrifice control. With S4 ERSs or any of the other newer generation ERSs like the Strand SL, Selcon Pacific or Altman Shakespeare, you get good luman/watt efficiency (though not as good as with PARs) and gain very good control.
--
Peter Herman TD and Resident Designer No Strings Theatre Company/Black Box Theatre http://www.no-strings.org
"Dennis Schneider" dennis_schneider...@NOTonpoint.mv.com
Let me strongly second the NO WAY comment -- at a cost/lumen metric, a Fresnel loses BIG to a S4PAR. Yes, the field is flatter... but that's IT.
Go with the new stuff!
Dennis
"Tony" tony...@shaw.ca
All, Thanks for the response, I am the sound guy and I have been asked to offer some advice to the people building the camp site.
So far, it seems like 6 1.2K channels are not enough and I will need at least 12. It also seems like S4/pars using the wide lens are a good way to start. It also seems from the responses 12 lamps is minimum, and perhaps I should get 18 and allow 6 more for future expansion.
The stage is in the dining hall, and in the past it was mostly for speaking and entertainment. Which was people dressing up in costumes and using a few props. Lighting was mostly for illumination. Here is the twist, they want to add a drama stream to the camp programming and do a little more than just basic lighting, but the reality is that I don't envision a lighting design program. I don't expect teenagers, or the college drama student hired for the summer camp period wanting to climb a ladder and aim, change gels, or focus. I would image they will want to program some scenes and press go and have a timer or a person go through the scenes for a short 30min skit.
This new building is being built and you can have a peak!
www.younglife.ca This is the truss I will have to hang the front lights. If you can suggest a way to put the lights up in a neat and tidy way let me know.
http://www.younglife.ca/camping/RockridgePhotoAlbum/pages/04063003.html My power will be fine there is 600A 3 phase for the building. The electricians are presently on site now wiring the whole building, so electrical labour cost are not a big issue. I need a recommendation for a dimmer rack, or else the electricians will pick one for us. The rack will go into the lighting equipment room where the dimmers for the main house light will be (I think?).
As for the Fresnel vs ETC Par argument, I am willing to sacrifice some effecience, but not bulb life. Also it would be ideal to only have to use one type of bulb. The camp site is in the middle of nowhere and specilized bulbs may not be easy to find. Changing a bulb is not that easy even when the lamp is cold if you have never done it before. If there are some brands of quality modern Fresnels let me know. I am also wondering if there is any value for what we want to do in adding even one automated fixture like an entry level mini MAC?
Tony
"Brandon Anderson" bdander...@satx.rr.com
Now we know it is indoors... I understand your concerns about maintenance, but if you want this to be a functional facility, you will need to get a variety of instruments for different jobs. First off, I recommend installing a permanent 48ch dimmer rack next to your 3 phase distro. Have the electricians run the channels to your lighting positions. This will give you flexibility and enough dimmers to work with. Next, invest in some wash fixtures. PARs are OK but not great. Scoops and cyc lights are suggested. Border lights work too. Gel them with Blue, Red, and Green diffusion. Both scoops and cycs have a good wattage/gel life ratio. Now, for your acting areas, you will need to use either fresnels with barn doors or ERS like source 4s. There should be an area every 8 feet or so, with areas overlapping slightly. Use two front lights per area, and if you would like it to look good, add a back or top light. Gel one side bastard amber and the other with Full Blue and you have yourself a decent theatrical set-up. Regardless of how simple the show is, there may be a time when you want to isolate areas (soliloquy for one), so using ERS is almost a must.
Control it all with an ETC Express 24/48 and you are all set. You will also want a followspot, of course. If you've done all that and have money to burn (which I doubt), then get a few cheap automated fixtures for fun.
With PARs you will not have a theatrical stage, you will have a general performance area. PARs are great for outside and for general lighting, but not for theatrical events. Fresnels are versatile but not good as either a spot or a wash. They are best as subtle accent and scenic lighting where soft edges but a flat wash is wanted. ERS are good at being spots, with hard edges (though you can soften them a number of ways), shutters, and gobo projection abilities (a gobo is a metal pattern). You can use an extra ERS to project the camp logo on the wall, and another as a special for the speaker. Have fun!
...
"E. Lee Dickinson" l...@REMOVEMEleedickinson.com
It really depends if you're going to have the time, willingness, and resources to teach people how to use it. If so, educating interested kids in the use of automated fixtures is tremendously valuable... but know that to do it *well* (which is the only way worth doing wiggles) is going to require a bit of a learning curve.
If they're not into changing lamps and refocusing instruments, they're likely not going to be in to the tedium of programming mark cues and out cues and things.
"Tony" tony...@shaw.ca
Brandon, Now for a 1 week camp drama camp for teenagers do I really need 48 channels and an expression 24/48? Remember the teens will be introduced to acting and theatre. Thsi is not a stage craft camp! The teens will still be water skiing, horse back riding, swimming and playing outdoors. My mandate is quite clear. I can get almost anything I want as long as it gets used.
Unlike the professional world the equipment is not help bring the production to the next level. So here is what I have decided so far with people's input.
12-24channels dimming The board has to be easy to use and have basic function like editing and inserting stuff into a stack without jumping through hoops.
No automated lights - nobody will know how to program them No followspot - It will be a liability and distract from the acting - nobody is going to know how to use it, and no teen is going to ask to go to camp to learn follow spot.
CYC and Border lights - do I really need them if there will be no scenery?
Can I just get a few scoops?
The dining room stage is only 20x15. (Phase II if it ever gets built, is for the auditorium with a 40x30 stage with the full blown theatre rig including a rotating stage) Tony ...
"Brandon Anderson" bdander...@satx.rr.com
Your choice, but you can't isolate areas with PARs and you will never achieve a theatrical look. Do you NEED 48 channels, no. You will probably never use all of them at once, but, in a few years, you may. If you have a 3-phase, it is a lot more reliable and a lot safer for all to do an install like that. As for the board, what were you thinking of? If you want a program and press a button type, the Express may be your best bet. If you just want something with sliders on it to do manual control, then you can go for something cheap. Again, it depends of if you want to accomplish. Too many things are built for what is needed "now" and end up having to be redone in a few years because they are inadequate.
As far as the scoop/cyc/border thing... You misunderstood what I was saying. A tree color wash will help you enormously. The most suitable instruments to achieve that are scoops (good), cycs (great, if positioned correctly), and borders (OK, but need a row of them and never really even).
You can use PARs, too (as most borders are) but you have the same drawbacks.
Minimally, you need 6 scoops (3 and 3). With this, you can make any color wash you want. At those dimensions, you can do five areas, 3 front, 2 back, requiring 15 instruments for proper lighting. That would be 10 S4s and 5 fresnels. A center special would be nice, so one more S4. So, for minimal decent lighting, you need 24 channels. Or you can go with the amateur rock band look and get PARs... I just did a show with all PAR64s. Not great, but it was a charity rock concert, so budget was really tight. Either way, your choice.
...
Simon Waldman swald...@firecloud.org.uk
I'd suggest, if you have beginner kids using it, that you also want something with a fader per channel. It makes things a lot more intuitive. ***uming you want and can afford a programmable board rather than going the fully manual route (perfectly feasible with under 24ch), I'd suggest looking at: Express 24/48, Strand 200-series, some of the Zero88 stuff.
> Can I just get a few scoops?
no - avoid the trap of using floods to light the main stage area. It'll be nasty and flat-looking.
How far from the stage will the lighting be? If very close then fresnels woudl be the most flexible option. Otherwise S4 PARs are a good bet, as the lamps are a lot cheaper than true PARs, and if you ever add some S4 profiles in the future the lamps will be the same. For what it sounds like you're doing (ie "some light on the stage"), you only really need one wash in open white, and then perhaps a blue and a red wash if you have the spare channels & lanterns. I'm not going to guess at how many lanterns you'd need for each wash without seeing the hall, as it's so dependant on their positioning. Just remember to have a few more than you think you'll need.
Do include some backlight, even if this means comprimising on the colour options, this makes things look sooooo much better.
HTH.
--
"Some seem to think that woman/man equality means bringing women up to the 'level' of men.
Would be much better if men and women met half way IMHO." -Andrew Bowden
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Simon Waldman, UK email: swald...@firecloud.org.uk http://www.firecloud.org.uk/simon
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bob_mil ...@spammenotagilent.com
: I have to light a small stage for a camp site. Stage is a tiny 20ftW x 15ft : deep. There will be no major productions. Some entertainment during a meal, : and some intro acting/drama cl***es. I am wondering what I need to make this : work not cheap, but well. Being a non profit and amature I don't expect an : experienced lighting person at the controls, nor a chance to upgrade. I have : only one chance to do it right.
sounds like my situation (church) a year ago...needed basic theatre capability combined with architectural control.
: 1. I plan to get new or used ETC pars and source 4s, so I am wondering how : many I need of each and total. What do you think of the Parnel?
I purchased six S4-26 ellipsoids, four S4 parnels and ten S4 pars. I'm rather dissapointed with the parnels -- would rather have gotten six pars for the same $$, or gotten some *real* fresnels. But I wanted all fixtures to use the same 575W halogen bulb.
I'm planning on purchasing ten to twelve more pars in the immediate future.
: 2. How many dimmer channels do I need? Can I just get a 6 channel and put 2 : lights on each, or do I need 12 channels?
I'd say "yes, you need 12 channels." You will in general use two lights per channel -- and you will occasionally want to use more, so I recommend 20A dimmers, particularly if you ignore me and only get six or eight channels.
I decided I *needed* 16 channels (by the time I added the house lighting circuits and various "standard" specials like cross, piano, pulpit, etc.) I installed 24 channels (two Lightronics AR-12 architectural dimmers -- cheap and limited in functionality but more than adequate for our purposes), and am glad I did.
We control it with a cheap NSI 7024 DMX unit and programmed architectural entry stations -- if we ever need better control for a big production we can rent it.
I'm also glad I emphasized flexibility in the design. Where we ultimately placed the lights for the "standard rig" is not where we necessarily thought we would. But we had put pipes and receptacles where we ended up hanging them.
In retrospect I might have used distributed dimmer packs (we installed about 3/4 of a mile of wiring from the AR-12s to the lantern receptacles), but I was concerned about buzz and appearance.
The biggest knob I had to accomplish "cheap but well" was a willingness to do the research and a master electrician who volunteered his services and was willing to do things like "no shared neutrals" which are best practices in the theatrical domain.
Bob Miller
"Dennis Schneider" dennis_schneider...@NOTonpoint.mv.com
Tony, 1. I'll repeat my advice on PARs vs. Fresnels -- go with the S4PAR. There is just no comparison in the light output between a PAR (any PAR) and a Fresnel, no moving parts, etc. Check your line voltage to see if you can use the long-life version of the S4 par lamps (HPL575/_X variants) - 1500+ hours vs. 300 hours, trivial color temperature difference. Make sure the electrician knows that you plan to use these lamps!
2. If you are installing dimmers in an equipment room and then running cabling out to all the instruments, a 12-channel ETC Sensor rack is a solid choice. I'd run 8 channels (1-8) out to the truss spread out across it's length with drop cables, and 4 channels to each upstage corner (9-12 twice), and 2 channels to each downstage corner (7-8 twice). Yes, I know I'm sending the same circuit to two places - given all you've said about keeping it simple, I'd try to stick to a 12-channel controller that will not need a video monitor for use. Limit the initial rig to 12 instruments, one instrument per channel. ***uming you run 6 front wash lights on the truss and 2 on each upstage corner, you'll still have 4 channels free for specials, expansion, practicals, etc.
3. Many may accuse me of heresy, but I'd strongly recommend you specify EDISON connectors for everything. You can buy edison plugs anywhere, S4Pars/your loads are all 575 watts apiece, and you'll be able to plug in scenic table lamp without adapter contortions.
4. To allow for expansion, I'd suggest running 2- 20 Amp straight line power outlets up to the grid, and snaking DMX cable up there at the time you do the rest of your electrical work. This would provide an easy means of connecting and powering a moving light, color scroller, any other lighting accessory in the future.
5. If you put in a moving light, you'll have to go to a much heftier console than the application sounds like it needs. An Express costs ~US$4000 vs.
~US$300 for a simple 12-channel console. Even if money is no object, consoles like the Express are built to use with a video monitor... and an Express is not particularly attractive unit to use with even one moving light (disclaimer: this is from a Hog owner).
6. If you have a student who wants to learn about lighting, he/she can invest a ton of energy into angles/beam shape/subtle sequenced cues, etc.
without movers. If you want to plan for a bit more "art" potential, buy a couple of Source 4 or Source 4 Zoom ellipsoidals for the truss/channels 7-8.
These can be "preset" for a podium speaker, etc. so they get used when you're not so blessed. Same long life bulb. If money is not an issue, go with S4 ellipsoidals for the front wash with the long life lamp instead of PARs. Lots of control over beam shape and focus, terrific output efficiency.
7. Have you considered where you are going to locate the lighting control?
Consider pulling the lengths of DMX cabling you'll need to where you'll need them...
YMMV Best, Dennis
"Tony" tony...@shaw.ca
All, There have been different boards suggested and prices vary.
etc 24/48 expression is the most expensive and I think it is too much.
NSI units seem to be popular and reliable entry level boards, but not the most easy to program.
The next 3 are in the same price range Strand 200 12/24 Alcora/Elara 12/24 - priced the same what is the diff?
The Leprecon LP1512 I can get used for $1400Can or 1kUS Are there significant differenced in these boards? Remamber I will not be using it.
How do these boards compare the Beheringer board?
Tony The strand and the Zers ...
"Brandon Anderson" bdander...@satx.rr.com
I never used that Strand, though I know two older boards well, both of which were hell to program. The MX had a whole bunch of sub-menu things I hated, and the Mantrix II was... Well, you didn't program it, you just ran it. I don't know how the newer series is about programming, which, if you are having entry level kids run, is more important than price. Why waste over a thousand on a board if no one knows how to program it?
Never heard of Alcora/Elara...
I've always been put off by Leprecon, and have heard mixed things about them. Again, I don't know the board...
The Behringer is an interesting but possibly not suitable choice. I don't know about programming, but without a monitor out, I doubt it's too easy.
For the price, I doubt it will do much, either. Remember that Behringer is an audio and music equipment manufacturer and that their lighting stuff is geared to DJ/Small rock band set ups. They are cheap, but a good brand for sound. As a manual board, I have no doubt it is great for a few channels and would be very useful for running both analogue and DMX dimmers, but for larger setups and for programmed shows, I doubt it is sufficient. Try before you buy. The ETCs are simple. You press record, cue number, enter.
It took 30 seconds to figure that out on my own. If it takes more than 5 minutes for you to figure out how to program a board, it will take kids an hour (depending on how focused they are, which, in my experience, is almost none). If there are too many steps involved, then they will forget them.
Don't worry about complicated things like links and follows, as most will forget these even exist.
Most importantly, try before you buy. Most dealers have a demo desk or a rental desk that you can use. Arrange to have a look at it. If it is in your budget, a good brand, and you find it intuitive, easy to run, and easy to program, then get it. If you can't figure the thing out, ask yourself if the kids would be able to either. If it is too expensive but a great board, consider begging for more money, noting that this is a long term investment.
Don't sacrifice quality for a few bucks. The only thing I go cheap on are PAR cans... Why spend $50 for something I can make for $10?
...
Christian Marg christian.m...@tu-clausthal.de
Well, since the Behringer light controller is my first one, I don't know what a Console should be like. Anyway: I was impressed by the big set of features it has: 120 easy programmable sets of Memories (each contain the Settings of 24 Channels), 99 Chaser with 99 steps (a step being either a Memory or a Preset) each, a Theatre mode where the Crossfade-time can be ***igned to each step, etc. etc.
Well, programming either a Memory or a Chaser is simple as that too, only that you need the Manual to find out. The Behringer is not intuitive (as in "take a look at it and immediatly know what you need to do to get what you want"), but sufficiently easy to use...
Programming a Memory: Setup a Preset using 12 Faders for 24 Channels (pressing the upper Switch before setting Channels 13-24). Press "Memory"-Key, press one of 12 Flash-Keys and you ***igned the Preset to one of the other 12 Faders on the Console. Pull up Faders Main, B, and the Fader for the Memory you want and there you go...
Mixing of Memories uses HTP. Ok, if you know about it.
Programming Chasers is equally easy. Using them gives you a whole lot of options on not so many buttons/faders, so it may take a little to get used to it...
bye Christian
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