brat camp
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"alex" em...@thebatcave777430.fslife.co.uk
chanel 4 and the evils of the girl who turned goth , was booted out of the police cadets for not removing her peircings and ended up being shiped off to sum american boot camp to be normalised ! I hadnt heard of this programe untill somone just stoped me in sainsbries car park to ask me about my peircings !
anyway got me thinking, that we need to do all this in reverse , i e run a camp for mundain , ordinary non creative people to bring them out of themselves. i think this programe is realy sad <maybe not quite a case for amnesty international> but never the less , it comes very close to abuse , very close to considering goth a mental health issue , and very close to the way mental health issues were dealt with in victorian asylums.
ok many of us have many issues , addictions , emotional,educational, behavioural issues etc etc . But ive allways found goth circles like a security blanket and places of healing . shame we couldnt have sponsored this gir to have a weekend in whitby and meet some like minded friends before she was carted off to boot camp.
be interested to hear other peoples comments and allso stories of experiences when people have tried to de goth you in the name of helping you ! http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/B/brat_camp/brat_pack/rachael... much luv alex x
pandaemona ...@aol.com (Pandaemonaeum)
Well since you haven't seen most of it a quick update. She wasn't sent off to brat camp becasue she is a goth she was sent off to boot camp because she has a deink problem. She tends to come home in the early hours (or not at all for a day or two) so ill she is vomiting for hours.
Thats the reason she is there. Sure they made her take the pearcings out but they are happy to let her have them back in when she finishes the program of team building and what not.
Ghost
"H Duffy" Hester_Duffy_nos...@hotmail.com
Erm... it really doesn't. She's not being picked on for being goth, she is a young girl with some fairly serious behavioural problems; she's been drinking heavily since she was about 14, she stays out all night on a regular basis, her once good relationship with her mother has become aggressive, and she herself is not a happy girl. That _is_ a mental health issue, regardless of whether she's a goth or not.
What, encouraged her to get off her face on alcohol and drugs some more? I'm not convinced that would help. She is, after all, just a kid, and she is just too young to be doing all the thihngs she's doing; she's putting herself in both short-term and long-term danger, in a way which suggests some fairly serious underlying problems.
From what I've seen, the "Boot Camp" is actually a very positive experience for her; yes, it's tough, but she's learning to be self-reliant, to be responsible, to achieve difficult goals, to co-operate with peers and with adults, and to fit in when necessary.
http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/B/brat_camp/brat_pack/rachael... I'll be interested to see what happens after the camp; whether she actually feels it was a positive experience.
H
"darkerfuture" nooneh...@stupidaddress.com
Surely she was sent there because she was a self-centred, short-sighted, weak minded little, err, brat?
Her dreads were cut off, mostly because she had lice. Now, in my opinion, lice wasn't the only problem with that hair... it seemed to be a serious hygiene issue.
As for the piercings, considering that they're hiking around woodland and sleeping rough, removing them (or putting tiny retainers in) is the only sensible option.
OK, so that's just my opinion, but my point is that I don't think it's because she's a "goth" Rozz
"alex" em...@thebatcave777430.fslife.co.uk
just made me smile that it had enough impact on somone that they stoped me at a supermarket to talk about peircings ! allso that the camp directors based there psycology on nomadic people groups and there wilderness experiences and say that they have a proven track record of helping people overcome mental health issues.
I was just thinking of the extreme rites and rituals of alot of nomadic people and the peircing branding body modification , fasting , natural drug use etc !
Does anybody remember those national geographic pictures of the women who got a new hoop round there neck each year and the neck stretched but if the husband died they removed all the hoops and there neck would break and they would die too ?
i cant see this working long term , maybe a term at art college would be more helpfull. im worried that she will conform to normative conservative values and opinions to get through the course , some of these may have long term benefits . on the other hand she will burry a huge part of her true nature in order to get through this and so its only and extreme form of alcohol or any other anti depresent , all the issues will rise much later in life iritated by having been forced to supress them at this point .
this is why we have high motorbike insurance premiums and stuff at the moment , the generation of silver rebels in there 60's the last to do national service just breaking out from the social conditioning they had 40 years ago in order to be there true selves !
lol just wanting to explore other ways of promoting responsable deviance to socail norms of the nanny state !
alex
whothe ...@btinternet.com (Carl Tomkins)
Doesnt anyone think that maybe its being a goth that lead her to rebelling against society and becoming a bit of a 'shit'? Thats the way it worked in my year at school, all 3 of the goths in my year were smelly, paid no attention to society issues and at least one of them is now a f*cked up smack head.
Also, does being a goth mean that your spelling becomes bad? Looking at the posts in this list, I would ***ume so!!
David Damerell damer...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
You mean "Doesn't", "it's", "led" not "lead", "That's", "societal issues" (and that sentence is badly punctuated), and "****ed-up"; and there is no reason to use two exclamation marks.
Oh, and it's a newsgroup, not a "list".
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David Damerell <damer...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
"oldgoth" d...@insanitorium.co.uk
Oh joy... we have become affiliated to alt.dickhead martin oldgoth website: www.insanitorium.co.uk Apr 17th - The Last Dance and Bella Morte "You're not drunk if you can lay on the floor without holding on" - Dean Martin
ReVulse ReVu...@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk
You only went to school for one year ?
And I suppose every single other pupil lives a worthwhile and saintly existence.
Why the attitude ? - Are you upset because you missed an episode of Eastenders or something ?
#ReVulse#
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Knowing how to spell *evry* ****ing word properley and grammar being exsact is *not* any indication of inteligence but your too stupid and thick to kno that! -Varizo (20/03/2004)
var ...@netscape.net (Varizo)
Wot hypocritts!!!!!!!! Months and nonths of going on and on at *me* about spelling misstakes, and then slagging off sombody who is going on about spelling misstakes!!!! U think that i wouldetn notice or somthing? Hypocritts.
V.
Zotz z...@bogusdomain.net
It is, of course, traditional that any spelling flame should itself have mistakes. Usually many mistakes. You shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that this is in any way about you.
G.
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"Global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method." [DDE]
"H Duffy" Hester_Duffy_nos...@hotmail.com
Apparently it doesn't actually stretch the neck, it forces the collar bones and ribcage downwards, which gives the illusion of a longer neck. Removing teh rings causes head-rush, but not death.
What makes you think she'll have to bury part of herself to get through?
Alcohol buries parts of yourself; not drinking,a nd relying on yourself, and achieving stuff generally helps people to _discover_ parts of themselves they hadn't known were there.
H
"Wamphyri" m...@here.com
Yeah! Go David, go David . . .
:o) Wamphyri
ReVulse ReVu...@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk
I'm sure it does stretch the neck. Because the neck is stretched and neck movement is restricted by the rings, the muscles atrophy and the neck isn't strong enough to hold the head up if the rings are removed.
#ReVulse#
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Knowing how to spell *evry* ****ing word properley and grammar being exsact is *not* any indication of inteligence but your too stupid and thick to kno that! -Varizo (20/03/2004)
"H Duffy" Hester_Duffy_nos...@hotmail.com
If it stretched the neck it would kill when the rings were put on, not when they were taken off!
But apparently that's not actually the case; it's been tried!
H
ReVulse ReVu...@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk
They don't put them all on at once!. They start at an early age and then rings are added gradually throughout life. It's like a flesh tunnel piercing in the earlobe - you start off small and work your way up over a period of time.
I can't disagree with that as I don't know.
#ReVulse#
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Knowing how to spell *evry* ****ing word properley and grammar being exsact is *not* any indication of inteligence but your too stupid and thick to kno that! -Varizo (20/03/2004)
"H Duffy" Hester_Duffy_nos...@hotmail.com
Yes, but stretching the neck slowly would still be dangerous!
Besides, if the necks were actually being stretched, they'd end up taller than average, right? But have you ever heard of them being particularly tall?
Searching on Google seems to bring up mostly Travel sites, none of which are terribly reliable; this one looks slightly better-informed than most; http://www.myanmar-burma.com/padaung.htm However, thinking about it logically, the neck muscles wouldn't completely atrophy, as they are still used; the women who wear the rings (from the Karen or Padaung tribe in Thailand) can turn their heads, and nod, and so on; the "rings" are actually a coil, but it's jointed in the middle so that they're still able to have fairly normal head mobility, and are able to open their mouths and so on (they wouldn't be able to if the head was totally supported by a rigid coil).
And if the neck itself were being stretched, it would almost certainly cause fairly major nervous-system failure, because the spinal cord (which is not terribly stretchy, AFAIK) would risk being torn, surely?
Anyone out there got enough medical knowledge to sort this one out? Graham?
H
ReVulse ReVu...@psychaoticREMOVE.fsnet.co.uk
I concede - you are correct, the neck isn't stretched.
http://www.thaipro.com/thailand/paduang.shtml http://www.gluckman.com/LongNeck.html There seems to be dispute about the effects of removing the rings.
#ReVulse#
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Knowing how to spell *evry* ****ing word properley and grammar being exsact is *not* any indication of inteligence but your too stupid and thick to kno that! -Varizo (20/03/2004)
"H Duffy" Hester_Duffy_nos...@hotmail.com
, thinking about it logically, the neck muscles wouldn't completely Yep; although that latter one mentions that the neck rings are removed on a woman's wedding night, so presumably it's not necessarily fatal, although I imagine it would be fairly uncomfortable!
My favourite museum, the Pitt Rivers, in Oxford, has an exhibition on Body Modification of various sorts, which includes a bit about the Karen women; fascinating, if somewhat stomach-turning in places!
H
Zotz z...@bogusdomain.net
Well, I can't find anything I'd regard as conclusive, but a couple of sources including the New Internationalist say that the problem is that the floppy neck flattens the windpipe unless they lie down with support.
http://www.newint.org/issue264/update.htm <TONE="Lurch"> You rang, ma'am?
</TONE> G.
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"Global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method." [DDE]
Pete French p...@n0spam.twisted.org.uk
This, however, I can believe...
-bat.
"the Girl who wanted to be God" godg...@twisted-dog.org.uk
no but the tissue between the bones does grow slightly to accomodate...
their necks *do* become longer, and because the rings are put on before skeletal.. what's the word... fusion, there is room for the bones themselves to be softer/less dense than without, as the external rings (kind of like an exoskeleton, i guess) take some of the weight of the head onto the shoulders rather than straight down the spinal column, making the bone/ligament/disc structure less solid and stable than in a person without the rings.
and bone is a living tissue so potentially *would* grow, given the right environment, as osteoblasts would be very active at the age they put the rings on... it might not actually make their neck bones *significantly* longer, as without the need for weight bearing, the neck bones would lack certain stimuli to grow. it could happen theoretically, as in the case of people who have their legs lengthened, its actually bone growth which allows that.
(its all that body building literature youve been reading that's taught you that! hehehe) the muscles are probably to a degree atrophied, and due to being used for only certan kinds of movement (not the full range) and no supportively, so just never grow very strong.
i think the problem is not instant death with removal, but a combination of weak bone structure in the neck due to incomplete skeletal strengthening (our bones grow denser if we use them for weight bearing), poor fusion of vertebrae and atrophied neck muscles mean that it would be difficult for them to "hold their heads up high" as you might say... they would have pain and possibly breathing/swallowing difficulties.
as to the point someone made about height, the people in those parts of the world are actually very small in stature, so a few extra inches in the neck is hardly going to make them very tall.
and the spinal cord, unlike the comment made by someone earlier, does grow, otherwise babies would have better leg movement than adults as the spinal cord in adults would, if it didnt grow during development, only reach the top of our chest... bad... ;p dont forget this form of body modification isnt started after puberty, its usually started when the girls are younger and their bones and bodies are immature and still pliable by external factors.
i wonder if the rings were removed one by one over a number of years they could regain that muscle strength and successfully achieve a "normal" neck.
i doubt it would ever be the same though, as some changes in anatomical structure would have occurred if the process had laster 10-15 years... and bone shrinkage due to osteoporosis wouldnt take effect until years later, in any case if the cervical bones weren't very dense, osteoporosis in the neck could actually probably be VERY damaging on an already less than normal density bone structure....
blah blah blah blah....
marge xxx ...not sure why she just decided to write an essay on skeletal development in the anthropological context... its too early!!!!
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must see: http://toybox.twisted.org.uk/~marge/lj/evesflyer.jpg must avoid: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=505766
"whisky-dave" whisky-d...@final.front.ear
I ate those sorta tradditions, I'm not gonna follow thta one, I will not confomr, beeing a goff makes you an individal like everyoen else, so their !
"Chris & Mich" no.cha...@ntlworld.com
I read an article about the Burmese women ages ago. If I remember right, they don't practice this anymore. There are a few older women who have the neck rings. Younger ones don't do it. These women have been lumped together in a village for the benefit of tourists and are treated as f they were animals in a zoo. Their circumstances prevent them from leaving and getting on with their lives as normal.
Not for me thanks.....
Mich
Zotz z...@bogusdomain.net
It's been creeping back in as a tourist attraction, apparently.
G.
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"Global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method." [DDE]
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