New and Need Opinions (long)
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"Sue Alexandre" Salexan...@home.com
Hello: I am going to court one week from Monday to try and obtain some child support. I really have no idea which way this will go, and am afraid that a lot depends on the "mood" of the judge. Please tell me what you think of my case: (I'll try to summarize as best as possible) Divorced the father 10 years ago. He was ordered to keep medical insurance on both children and pay $215 a week. After two years, he cut back to $100 and I took him to court. He was ordered to pay arrearages AND they upped his weekly child support, too.
He's always been a few months behind in payments, but the past few years have been really bad. About two years ago I moved into a new house and my daughter decided she wanted to live with dad, and we were all agreeable to it. I urged him to have the child support modified in court to avoid problems, and he agreed. I provided him with a copy of my paystub for that purpose, and never heard anything after that. He completely STOPPED paying child support, ***uming that since he had one child and I had one child, we were even. I pretty much let that go for the past two years, but now am getting collection notices for medical bills on my daughter. He's not paying ANY of her doctor's bills, even though MY insurance covers most of it. He has not had them on his insurance for over 4 years now, because he knows that I have them covered. He lost yet another job and stayed unemployed for 9 months. He finally took another job but makes very little money. My son would like to start college in the fall and I would like some help with that. I am taking him to court for child support arrearage and unpaid medical bills that are ruining my credit. The way I see it, this could go either way: the judge may decide that since we've each had one child for the past two years, we're even, or . . . the judge may decide that since the child support orders were never modified through the court, he still owes me the $215 a week for the past two years. Any thoughts or opinions on which way this will swing? I'd like to be somewhat prepared.
If nothing else, I'm sure he owes me the past four years worth of medical coverage I have provided, right? Thanks in advance for your insight.
Sue
"Char Fox" C...@techtrek.com
If these medical bills are from the last two years, why are you getting notices? Wouldn't he have been the one taking her to the doctor?
I would call the provider and ask them why they are billing you when you did not request the medical care and did not sign for it. He can't just arbitrarily sign your name to be billed.
...
"Sue Alexandre" Salexan...@home.com
Yes, I have spoken to some of the healthcare providers but since I am legally still the "custodial" parent, and since I'm the only one they actually get calls from and have contact information for (and I am the one who usually takes her, not him) AND, and I think this is the big reason, since it's MY medical insurance covering her, I am the one they go after for the rest of the money.
I omitted a major part from my original letter . . . my daughter spends about 70% of her time at my sister's house. The are very, very close, and my sister, who never had any children of her own, has practically taken over raising my daughter, NOT the father. Confusing, but everyone seems very happy with this arrangement, except for the financial aspect. I do NOT want to involve my sister in a court case, therefore, it will be his word against mine that she spends more time at my sister's than my ex-husbands. Sorry if that's confusing.
Sue ...
Danielle daniellesm...@xtra.co.nz
On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:50:47 GMT, "Sue Alexandre" He couldn't afford the original sum so you made damn sure they hit him even harder. Nice one.
Modified? It should have stopped.
in court to avoid You were.
I pretty much let that go for the past two years, but now am Oh you poor baby. Didn't mummy tell you adults support their children?
He's not You are ruining your own credit. The secret is PAY YOUR BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The way I see it, this That would be fair.
or . . . the judge may decide that Bullshit.
Any thoughts or bludger.
"Paul Fritz" paulfr...@voyager.net
My opinion is that you are a money grubbing bitch, Your son wants to attend college. That means he is an adults. Tell him to get a job and pay for his own decisions like real adults do., your ex was unemployed for 9 months? Why weren't you paying him CS????
indyg ...@aol.com (Indyguy1)
It has more to do with the laws in your state. What state do the children reside in? Is it the original state the CS order was issued in? If not in what state was the original order made?
Please tell me what you Why was the CS upped? Was he making signifigantly more money at the time?
Why didn't you go on a program that automatically deducted the CS from his paycheck?
About two years ago I moved into a new house and my What about the arrears from the past, were they paid in full when he did this?
The bad news for you ex is if he didn't go to court and have custody of the one child now living with him changed he very well may owe you the CS for both children. But that doesn't mean you have to go after him for it, or keep it if he is ordered to pay it. If he had to pay it would he be interested in applying it to your son's college expenses?
I pretty much let that go for the past two years, but now am Let me make sure I've got this straight. He was ordered by the courts to provide insurance, but hasn't in four years. You have. Who was responsible for any deductable or co-pay? Were you two ordered, by the courts, to split it? Why did you start covering the kids with your insurance? If it was for a valid reason I would think your ex should be responsible for repaying you the costs to cover the kids through your employer.
He lost yet another job and stayed When you say he lost *yet* another job, exactly what does that mean? How many has he lost? Dose he loose his jobs because of a layoff or did the companys he worked for close down? Or did he *choose* to not do his job properly and get fired, or just quit?
He finally took another job but makes very little That won't wash in court. If he has made X amount for years and all of a sudden takes a job that pays considerably less the courts usually won't lessen his current obligations. They certainly WON'T erase or lower what he owes you from the past.
My son would like to start college in the fall and I would like some Depending on the state you live in he may or may not have to contribute to your son's college expenses. Have you filled for federal aid for your son's education?
I am taking him to court for child support arrearage and You have every right to do this. Ignore those that call you names or try to make you feel bad for attempting to collect what is owed to you or the creditors, from your ex.
The way I see it, this Was he up to date in CS when your other child went to live with him? Because if he wasn't he owes you that same $215 a week, or any portion he hasn't paid of that $215, until the one child moved in with him.
Once the child moved in with your ex any CS would depend on BOTH of your incomes, *if* it had been leagally changed in court. If he made more, than you, he may still owe you some CS for the child still with you. If you made more than you may owe him. I suggest you figure this out, and base it on what he was earning in the past and reasons for now earning less.
You could just go into court and since he never had things changed legally you would probably get that $215 a week for the past two years. But is that fair? I don't think so. Why don't you do things above board? Ask for any arreages up till the time the one child moved in with him, any portion of the medical bills or the insurance coverage he should have paid, and petition the courts for college support, IF, it is allowed in your state. Then figure out if either of you owes the other for the years you were the CP to only one of your two children. Then if you owe him have that deducted from what he owes you from the past CS and medical bills.
Don't take money from him just because he didn't go through the courts to have things changed, that would be wrong.
Any thoughts or You never know until you get to court. Just don't let the folks who try to make you feel bad for asking for what is owed by your ex get to you. Keep in mind some people around this news group feel CS should be nothing more than 50% of welfare needs being met for the children of divorce.
I'd like to be somewhat prepared.
Probably, unless you put the kids on your policy because you liked your covergae better, than what his coverage offered, and he never agreed to it. If this was the case and your ex had not agreed to picking up the costs then don't try to get money out of him, based on a legal loophole. However no matter what he still should owe you the % of out of pocket he was ordered to pay all along.
Thanks in advance for your insight.
Let us know how things turn out.
Indy
CC c...@mail.duke.edu
Then why do you think (by taking him to court) you will ever see this money now or in the future?
Why do you state that "the past few years he's have been really bad", since you each have had custody of one child anyway? depending on who had the higher income, that parent would be the one to pay cs. even then its very, very low like 75-80 % less than normal. so, if you make more income it would have been you paying him cs.
I must give you a lot of credit here. Most cp-moms when faced with this situation would literally do anything to keep the flow of cash (or lack of it) coming. Even if it meant destroying their children's lives and/or their relationship with their father in the process.
Are you in an HMO? Does your daughter have a medical condition? She shouldn't have that many doctor's bills.
I'll ask again, do you really think that's going to make him pay? do you think you will ever see that money?
The way I see it, this I'm almost 100% sure I know the outcome, but i'm not saying.
He would owe you the amount that he's obligated to pay (based on a percentage of both salaries) only.
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CC c...@mail.duke.edu
Sounds like she's taken over raising her for you too. Actually, from the courts point of view, it sounds like both of you should be paying your sister cs. Have you paid her anything?
The laws in my state makes it perfectly legal for a third party to sue one or both bio-parents for cs on behalf of a child. I would be compensating your sister for your part somehow.
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"Sue Alexandre" Salexan...@home.com
Hello, Indy: Thank you for your very helpful and supportive post . . . it was a refreshing change from some of the others. Since you sound sincerely interested, I'll provide a few more details. Yes, my ex goes through a lot of jobs, probably 11 or 12 since I've known him. He either gets fired or "walks out". It seems he's the type of person who doesn't always see eye-to-eye with authority, including the courts, I guess. And yes, they raised his child support last time we had to do this because he was making much more money. So it certainly wasn't his inablility to pay - he just "decided" that cutting the payments in half suited him better. He's not exactly destitute, he own's 2 rental properties, a corvette, a Harley, 2 trucks, a car, a hunting cabin, and various other "toys". However, he felt comfortable to attend my son's birthday party (which I invite him to every year), ate and drank to his heart's content, asked to have a doggie bag to take home, and neglected to bring my son a birthday gift. Said he'd "catch up with him some other time". That was 4 months ago. I'm sorry - that's off topic, but it's part of the reason I feel justified in asking for help now, since my son (who works 35 hours a week AND attends high school full time) would like to go to college. And the other fact I didn't mention in my last post is that I ended up paying all of the orthodontia bills on my son 6 years ago . . . he paid nothing even though the deal was to pay half.
Therefore, I think it only fair HE pay for my daughter's orthodontia work.
And yes, the original court order stated that HE was to keep medical coverage on both children at all times, even in the case of unemployment.
With him being out of work so often, he never did have any consistent coverage on them, so I put them on mine. I contribute to that coverage every week, and he knows it, but has never offered to reimburse me or split it with me. Why should he? Someone else always takes care of things.
No, I'm not after any money that is not owed to me . . . I have paid many, many bills over the years myself without griping about it for the sake of keeping an amicable relationship with my ex, for the sake of the children.
But since he's getting ready to take a week's vacation in Florida, it's a little hard to swallow when I haven't had a vacation since my kids were born. This "money-grubbing bitch", as I was so eloquently called by our cl***y readers, thinks she should be helped a little with two children's college educations. I have instructed my lawyer to NOT put him in jail, even though he thinks the judge may very well order that, and I will NOT tell the judge that my ex is still illegally claiming the children on his income tax . . . I'm sure the IRS will catch up with him soon enough.
Thanks for listening, and again, for your kind support.
Sue ...
"Sue Alexandre" Salexan...@home.com
He was still in arrearage when he stopped paying and when my daughter went to live with him. The main reason I haven't pursued this earlier and that I let so many things "slide" is so that I don't create tension or animosity. I like the fact that me and my ex have always been civil, and didn't want to ruin that, but he's pushed a bit too far, and now he doesn't even bother seeing or calling my son, so there's not much in that relationship to lose.
Not many "sickness" medical bills, but a lot of sports-related injuries.
My lawyer tells me they can make him sell one of his houses, which I don't want. I just want a little money to help with college.
Thanks again for your input.
indyg ...@aol.com (Indyguy1)
Your welcome.
it was a If you stick around this news group, and I suggest you do, you'll learn who are reasonable people and who are not.
Since you sound sincerely Yes, I am interested. You need to find out what the laws are regarding support for college aged children in your state. If you like, you can post the state you live in and I can give you an idea how they view college help.
Yes, my ex goes through a lot I would think a lack of respect of authority might be a problem some who don't pay their CS suffer from.
And yes, they I figured as much.
So it certainly wasn't his inablility to pay - he just Well there you go, that respect for authority problem rearing it's ugly little head.
He's not When you go into court asking for what is owed to you, make sure these *toys* are brought to the judges attention. It's not unheard of for nonpaying NCPs to be told to sell their toys to pay their debts, and rightfully so.
However, he felt I'm so sorry to hear this, for your son. Look at the bright side, at least he showed up for the party. Of course now that your son is old enough to be able see what his dad has deceided to spend his money on and what he doesn't do for him your son may be forming an opinion of his father that, regardless of how hard you try to counter with excuses, will be less than understanding.
I'm sorry - that's off Not really. It's not that surprising either.
but it's part of the reason I feel justified in asking for help now, Even if your son was not in need of financial help to attend college, your ex still owes you what he owes you, and you are entitled to be reimbursed.
And the other fact I didn't mention in my last Add that to the list of monies owed to you by your ex and make sure your attorney is aware of this.
I'd go with the orignal order or have it rewritten. The last thing you need to have happen is for you not to pay for your half of your daughter's work and then have your ex sure you, even though he never paid for half of your sons.
And yes, he could do that. And if he is in worse financial straits than you he could get the monies for daughter's work awarded to him and get a p*** on repaying you for sons.
Then he owes you your contribution to your companies insurance program to keep the kids insured.
Good for you, now make sure he pays for the coverage as it was ordered.
I contribute to that coverage Sounds like a round in court is just what he needs to grow up and take responsibilty.
Sounds like, from his collection of toys, you've put up with his irresponsibilty too long already.
This "money-grubbing bitch", as I was so eloquently called by our Hey, if you are a CP who recieves more than welfare level support for only the most basic needs for your children certain posters here consider you a money-grubbing bitch. So just ignore them.
thinks she should be helped a little with two children's The monies he owes you he owes YOU. It's repayment to YOU for things he should have paid for the children, too bad you can't charge him any interest you lost by fronting the monies for him.
Again you need to look into what your state allows for college help from NCPs.
If they don't allow for any then you ought to consider putting any monies you get from you ex towards your son's education. Also make you you have filed your FASFA forms for federal aid for your son.
I have instructed my lawyer to NOT put him in jail, He's got toys to sell, he'll probably be ordered to sell them to pay his debts to you. No need for jail, unless he ignores the courts orders and then that is his own fault, not yours.
and I will NOT They usually do in the long run.
Any time.
Indy
"Char Fox" C...@techtrek.com
You said *usually* you take her in. I'd go through all those bills where your ex has signed and call the providers and tell them, regardless of who's CP or who's medical insurance picks up the tab, that YOU did not sign for those bills. They cannot just arbitrarily bill you for something you didn't sign for. If he signed, he's the one they have to go after. The rest of them you'll have to take to court to get paid.
n ...@email.moc (Mx Ax)
On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:46:56 GMT, "Sue Alexandre" ...
Danielle daniellesm...@xtra.co.nz
She's expecting child support for the child she doesn't even have custody of. That tells me all I need to know about her. Next.
Fra ...@geocities.com (Frazil)
OK my opinion.
Legally you probably have a slam dunk case. Modifications to a court order can only be made by the courts. The fact that you and he may have made a mutually agreed upon change to the order doesn't end the legal affect of the original order. Thus, regardless of what you may have agreed to it has no legal effect in the court's eye unless it was approved by the court. You'll win hands down, most likely.
Morally, however, I would side with him. If you have one kid and he has the other kid you are each responsible for child support based on your proportion of the combined income. So, if he makes, say, 70% of your combined income and you make 30 percent, he would have to give you 70 percent of the total combined CS for the one kid in your custody. He would spend his presumed 70 percent of total CS on the other kid in his custody. You, on the other hand, would have to give him your 30 precent of the total CS for the kid in his custody, and you would be presumed to spend your 30 percent of the total custody for the kid in your custody. Therefore if you each are the custodial parent of one of the two kids, in theory, there would be no need to exchange money, because each of you would be providing 100 percent of the cost for the kid in your custody.
IOW, if the total CS between the two of you, for two kids was $2000 per month, he would have to send you $700 for your custodial child while being presumed to be spending $700 on his custodial child. You, in turn, would have to send him $300 for his custodial child while being presumed to spend $300 on you custodial child. Since the total (your and his) CS per child is $1000 per month, if you each have custody of one child, there is no need for money to exchange hands. In conclusion, you're probably legally safe. Morally, however, he is correct.
But who ever said the law was moral.
Fra ...@geocities.com (Frazil)
That little detail probably won't matter. Your sister is not a legal or physical custodian of the child, therefore she has no legal standing before the court. However, if he wanted to change the custody arrangements, it could work against you. Because he could argue that you are not the primary care giver (your sister is, by virtue of having the child 70 percent of the time), and that he, as a father, would be a better primary care giver than your sister.
justamo ...@bigfoot.com
I have to wonder - why was the *father* the only one ordered to keep the child in medical insurance? In the order regarding my stepson, it says that whichever parent has employer provided or offered insurance must carry the child on it, *unless* adding him to the policy would be a prohibitive cost, which currently it is on my husband's insurance. Lori
justamo ...@bigfoot.com
Why should he have been the only one ordered to provide it in the first place?? If she was also able to get insurance through work, then they should be ordered to split the premium cost for whichever has the more cost effective insurance. would that not be more fair than just automatically ordering the father to provide it??
Lori
Fra ...@geocities.com (Frazil)
The bottom line is that the courts won't take into account any side deals you say you and he had, and will not take into account any side deals he says you and he had. The courts will look at the existing court orders and determine who owes what. From the sounds of it, he's probably screwed, and he did it to himself, by failing to get a court order to memorialize whatever arrangement you and he made or thought you and he made.
"Char Fox" C...@techtrek.com
*@&#@&#@ This makes about the fifth response I've sent to the send and not the ng. (sigh) I just switched to IE...gotta remember REPLY GROUP, REPLY GROUP. God, why'd I change from Netscape? ;-)
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