Parenting a difficult teen
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"elisa ...@hotmail.co.uk" <elisa
Hi I have just found this group. I used to subscribe to misc.kids hundreds of years ago when the internet had hardly just begun and my kids were just babies. Now, firstborn is almost 15 and life is pure hell. She's in trouble at school (truanting, being temporarily excluded, failing, low self esteem), known to the police (shoplifting, absconding from home) trouble at home (foul behaviour, language, stealing, smoking, drinking, going out whenever and wherever, having her beautiful face pierced, no family involvement) and things just keep going downhill. As a parent, I feel as if I am living with an abusive partner, and my feelings towards what was once such a beautiful and bright child are completely confused. There seems to be NO HELP whatsover, so perhaps some other wise parents who have lived through this and come out the other side (as I'm sure there will be one) can offer some advice. This is so emotionally draining, and I have other people in my life that need me too.
Hopefully, elisa
dragonlady meho...@removepacbell.net
BTDT. Our teen years included most of the above, plus a suicide attempt. (No facial piercing -- not sure how we avoided that one, I'm just glad!) And last week my now 20 yo delightful daughter told me how much she loved me, how sorry she was she put us through hell when she was younger, and how glad she is that I always stuck by her. One of the things she told me specifically was that, when she was younger (about the age your daughter is now) she hated me for needing to know where she was, for calling her friend's parents, for checking up on her -- after all, her friends' parents didn't behave like that. Now she understands that I did it because I love her, and, ultimately, cared more than her friend's parents.
Do read "Reviving Ophelia". It helped me understand some of what my daughter's were facing as young teens.
Continue to love her, and to have faith in her future: the things you taught her when she was younger WILL come out in the long run.
Let her know that, no matter HOW much she pisses you off, she's stuck with you loving her.
You may want to explore different approaches to her education -- it sounds like the "regular" school isn't working so well for her.
It was my experience that sending a kid like this to a therapist wasn't helpful until THEY wanted to go; however, a good family therapist helped ME keep my balance.
You may find Al Anon helpful: for my older daughter (now 23) I finally learned how to disengage from HER problems, and continue to love her but not allow her problems to destroy MY life. (She's now doing great, too.) the phrase is to "disengage with love" -- in our case, we had to figure out how to throw her out of the house without turning our backs on her, and we managed, though not without pain. (She was 22 at the time -- I wouldn't throw a 15 yo out, though I might find a way for her to live somewhere else.) One of the things that turned out to be really important for us was that we were very involved in a church, and my kids all established good relationships with other adults who *I* trusted. Those relationships continue to be an important part of their lives -- it continues to be great, for me, that when they are troubled there are other adults that they will call, and who support them. (They've also supported ME, also important.) (I have also ended up being part of a support system for other people's teens when they aren't doing so well.) My mother keeps ***uring me that we can't know if we were successful parents until our kids are at least 25. (She used to say 23 -- now, some days, she's going up to 30 or 33...) Hang in there. You WILL come out on the other end.
And if you want to e-mail me privately, I think the way to do that is pretty obvious.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
"kewljewel" sweetasyl...@yahoo.ca
Hello Elisa, I am also experiencing the same things with my daughter, but add property damages when she loses control and smashes everything, and she is but only 13! She had put us through hell for several months and recently we were able to get some help. Often when she goes into a rage, she will hit me. We called the police recently and she was arrested for ***ault on myself. They took her to the jail, searched her, fingerprinted, photographed, then stuck her in a cell for four hours.We now have a legal document saying that she is to obey house rules, keep the peace, go to school each day, and a weekly curfew of 8:00 p.m. and 9:00 on weekends. If she fails to follow, the police will take action. Prior to the arrest, my Husband and I called our local Family Child Services for help and we they have given us resources and advice. We are all going to do some counselling along with my daughter doing most on her own. We needed to have the law set rules for her before she self destructed, or we did. If she behaves she will not have a record once she is 18. If she does not choose to behave, we know that we tried all we could and the rest will be up to God. I wish you all the best with your daughter and remember the 'Tough Love" thing. I have cried so many tears over my daughter's behaviour, and spent many sleepless nights. So far , she has followed the rules, pushing them here and there, but things are so much better for my family. We are going to give this our biggest fight, and we are ever so hopeful of a happy ending.
"cathryn" cathryndo...@gmail.com
Hi Elisa I really empathise .... it's a kind of grief, I think, remembering that cute little 4 year old (or whatever) and trying to relate that memory to the monster that child has become. I once wrote a poem called "not even for our children" about how things don't always work out as we plan them, not even for our children.... it was written on the tailend of my firstborn going through the behaviour your describing... on the precipice of her 'recovery'.
I totally agree with what dragonlady said: let her know in whatever ways you can that you love her and want to help her. I also recommend Reviving Ophelia, as well as Ophelia Speaks.
My experience (6 sisters, 3 daughters, many foster daughters) says that whenever a teenager goes off the rails, there's *always* an underlying reason. It could be a big ugly traumatic reason such as sexual ***ault, or it could be as simple as a need to individuate. The behaviour your describing lends me to think that it's more than just individuation.
Whatever it is though, she's not likely to confide in you.
Here are some things you could try: Leave literature and relevant books lying around the house (in strategic but not too obvious places).Some of the one I used include the Ophelia books, Secret Girls Business, Overcoming Childhood Trauma, Understanding Teenage Depression, info on Borderline Personality Disorder, Info on sexual ***ual, etc etc.
Find a way to connect her to her childhood and her childhood dreams -
in my case, this meant moving back to the country (where my daughter grew up) and buying her a video camera (she always wanted to be a movie director but then in her bad years lost all hope and aspirations.
When I bought her the camera on her 16th birthday she cried and hugged me and said mum this is the best present you could possibly have got me).
Try to find positive ways that will help her define herself - things like sailing, outdoor activities, sports. Abseilling is good because it combines adrenaline with something that is uniquely 'hers'.
In a good moment, in a quiet moment, ask her what she needs most in her life right now. And listen, really listen to what she says. It wasn't until my daughter tried to kill herself on her 17th birthday that I really paid attention - for two years she'd been saying "I just need to get away from this place" and I'd been saying "no, you need to stay here and confront /deal with/etc".... after the suicide attempt I sent her to live with my sister in Sydney, and that was the beginning of her recovery. Sometimes I think they know better what they need than we do.
But most importantly, get yourself to counselling. For two reasons: it's pretty unlikely you'll be able to get her to a counsellor, but you might be able to provide counselling by proxy, so to speak. That is, through describing what's going on for her, a counsellor will be able to give you ideas and strategies to try. And the other reason is, you matter too, and it's really important (for you, for your daughter, for you other loved ones) that your take care of yourself during this stressful time. The support and strength I received from counselling was at times a life-saver for me.
I do understand Elisa, I know how it is living sometimes not even day by day but hour by hour.... I can tell you though, it IS all worth it in the end. My beautiful Amy is now 20 and the most wonderful thing on earth.... she is that cute little four-year-old all grown up, and doing just fine. The lumpy bits in the middle were trying for both of us, but worth every minute - I wouldn't want to change a thing about her now.
Take care of you and feel free to email me.
With much respect and care, Cathryn.
peanutbutterwolf2 ...@gmail.com
In my experience with my 14 year old daughter, the back of your hand is the most effective teaching method available. My daughter used to be attracted to demons like alcohol, nicotine, unprotected sex and drug use. When I become aware of this I confronted my daughter in her bedroom I tied her to the bedpost and used a cane on her. After that night she learned not to do those things and I have been proud of my daughter ever since.
dragonlady meho...@removepacbell.net
One can only hope this is some idiot's idea of a bad joke.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
"cathryn" cathryndo...@gmail.com
Sadly, dragonlady, I think not.
peanutbutterwolf2 ...@gmail.com
teenagers which are easily susceptible to demonry only re-evaluate their lives when they have been beaten to an inch of it.
"cathryn" cathryndo...@gmail.com
Elisa, I just remembered something else I wanted to offer.... I think all that bad behaviour is, quite literally, attention seeking. And why does someone seek attention? Because they need it - it's a cry for help. I asked my daughter recently why she did some of the things she did, and she said - to get your attention.
Again, my best wishes.
Cathryn.
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
You're trying to combat the style of this generation, and that's the parental equivalent of suicide. Nothing she is doing sounds abnormal for her age and this age. You're being a bit stupid, let me help you grasp this fully: There is no advice out there, because people having that difficulty were trying to control their teens and usually finally drove them away. In fact, there are none who, when first afflicted, do come through it well, who does not have to finally surrender the game to their kids and have nothing they wish to tell other authority-bound parents, because they know their surrender looks cowardly.
Unfortunately it is also the only thing that works.
And lastly parents who don't have that problem are friends and equals with their kids in the first place and that's WHY they don't have that problem, they will just ***ume that you're stupid and vicious, and that is WHY YOU have that trouble, AND they'd be right!
Now you may not have thought so, but you were wrong because you were just imitating your own parents, and forgetting how it made YOU feel.
Use a bit of logic here, the nature of teens is no accident: You get what you deserve. If you have restricted her in an inhumane fashion, she will inevitably turn on you. It's a Law of Nature. She gets her motivations toward you from the way you treated her, as does everyone! You don't think she treats HER FRIENDS badly, now, do you?
That's because they have the same rules among themselves as you have with your adult friends, IN ORDER TO HAVE ANY FRIENDS!! Namely, they treat each other as EQUALS, the way you have to treat others to have their friendship and help!! Trying to treat a grown human any other way is surely a Fool's Errand. And be sure, she is a grown human!!
Her rebellion proves it!
At this late date you cannot attempt to change anything by coercion, it will simply get worse and get quite a bit nastier. In fact the only thing you have a hope of doing is to abjectly surrender to her and let her do what she wants as long as she will just talk to you and tell you why she is doing it, and if she will be your friend again. Tell her you don't understand it all but that you'll try, and that you will never try to control her again, because that simply will NOT work at all. Ask, beg, beseech her help, but do NOT try to coerce it, it WILL NOT WORK! IT WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN, and remember, you will be virtual contemporaries most of your adult lives, so if you want an adult daughter who EVEN SPEAKS to you, you'd better give up the authoritarian shit RIGHT NOW! Rebellion MEANS INTRINSICALLY that she is grown beyond that EVER WORKING AGAIN!
You can try control strategies, but all that does is to delay the outcome slightly, and it makes the outcome substantially worse and more hateful and longer-lasting well into her adulthood. It sounds like she is planning to leave, so my best estimate is that you have mere minutes or days till you will no longer even know where she is, so you had better surrender while the getting is good. After surrender, crying on her shoulder about your fears for her may help her to understand that you're afraid for her, but if you try to turn on her and control her again you will force her hand disastrously!!
If you behave as her friend instead of her owner, she will suddenly not have anyone to rebel against, and you will likely learn alot as well as regaining communication with her. It's up to you to end the war here, she will not do it, the Natural Order is for an animal to require that it controls its fate, SOLELY!
You must do it. Surrender. And it must be your full surrender, not some truce, because that just sounds like your ploy. And if she is involved in drugs in a harmful way, this is the only quick way to both find out, and to win her ear back once again so that you can offer help when she wants it in a manner she might take seriously.
With raising teens it's a matter of you choosing between being stupidly stubbornly "right", or choosing to be involved and not in control anymore, but nevertheless happy. It comes down to the choice to be right or happy quite a lot in people's relationships with spouses and others.
If you choose to try be right, and you persist, you may never see your grandchildren because she won't let you anywhere near them!
I know a LOT of young and even older people who won't.
Steve
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
A tree, such as you above, is surely known by its fruit.
And its advice is worth likewise.
Steve
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
"Tough Love" means how to kill your children without criminal charges.
You'll find soon that you've driven her away.
Steve
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
> In my experience with my 14 year old daughter, the back of your hand is
> the most effective teaching method available. My daughter used to be
> attracted to demons like alcohol, nicotine, unprotected sex and drug
> use. When I become aware of this I confronted my daughter in her
> bedroom I tied her to the bedpost and used a cane on her. After that
> night she learned not to do those things and I have been proud of my
> daughter ever since.
-----------------
John "diaper boy" Wolf-troll again.
Steve
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
> teenagers which are easily susceptible to demonry only re-evaluate
> their lives when they have been beaten to an inch of it.
------------------
John the diaper boy Wolf-troll again.
Steve
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
The only people who believe shit like that were damaged and stupidly believed their damagers. These are the pitiful excuses for adults who imitate their parents and submerge their true feelings till mid-life crises overwhelm them.
Steve
dragonlady meho...@removepacbell.net
Then it's worth lots -- my kids, as adults, are all doing great.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
"kewljewel" sweetasyl...@yahoo.ca
Hi Steve, Believe it or not, my daughetr and I are close, and I intend to be there for her always. My daughter is incredibly defiant and smart. We had to do the tough love thing. It was very difficult for me to call the police once again. I love her, and remember the little girl who was sweet and caring.I believe she has an incredibly bright future ahead of her, if she lives through it. Our nice small town is overflowing with Crystal Meth, and children are dying often from it.I worry endlessly.
She smokes pot, cigarettes, drinks,is sexually active, or has been I know. She has threatened to harm herself and us as well. We are working with a number of professionals, and they are the ones who had advised us to break the pattern before the entire family fell aapart.
Each child has a different story. My daughter knows exactly how to play us. Her rebellion is not for some sort of attention or internal conflicts still unresolved, her motivation comes from her fight for freedom. I have talked with her about the dangers ***ociated with her choices, have everyday told her how much we love her. I will not let her down.
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
The problem is that your definition of great varies from reality.
Steve
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
Crystal Meth is the most inherently addictive substance ever invented, and I support violent wars against it. I think they should take anyone found making it or selling it right out and beat them to death naked on a rack in public view.
But when it comes to a specific teen, you must ask instead what would make someone want to risk their life, and the answer is abuse. Abuse is that which makes someone lose self-esteem and be ashamed that they permit someone to offend against them, and they want to harm, hurt, kill their abuser even at the risk of their own life, and this is precisely what teen rebellion is all about, being abused by YOU, their authoritarian parents, till they give up on their own future and instead turn on YOU and resolve to hurt YOU by embarrasing YOU, and hurting YOU back with the only means they have at their disposal, namely destroying themselves!!
You as a parent must then grasp finally, and however unpleasantly, that it is YOU who cause that sort of self-destructive behavior, and NO ONE ELSE, and it is ONLY YOU who can stop it by ending your war against your teen's sociallife/sexlife and against their peer-culture and against their freedom, because it is that threat to freedom that mnore than any single thing makes teens blackly and instantly suicidal and determined to turn and make war on you by harming themselves.
Without YOUR offenses against their self-esteem/freedom youth culture would never contain the dark suicidal forays into self-destruction, they would have no motive toward it, it would be altogether unneeded and even unthinkable!
Teen culture would be harmless, and their freedom would benefit from your non-controlling adviser status as their friend and resource. But that can ONLY come if you resolve to surrender your war to them and to treat them as equals as they demand, and relinquish ever trying to restrict them coercively.
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Come on, you DUMMY, WHY would anyone do that? They ONLY do that if they regarded themselves as a humiliated SLAVE, as PROPERTY, and they had concluded that the ONLY way to hurt their slave master was to damage his property, NAMELY THEMSELVES!!! Teens ONLY do that when they have NO self-esteem left as a free being, when you have robbed them of it, and they have given up on ANY FUTURE that THEY want!!
I saw this consistently when we were raising our teens, ours had all their freedoms, and had sex in their rooms, came and went as they pleased, and yet they didn't ever worry us, they ALWAYS told us where they were going, and WHY? SO WE WOULDN'T WORRY!! They LIKED us and they wanted us to be COMFORTABLE AND HAPPY IN OUR FRIENDSHIP TOGETHER!
They didn't like parties, where they saw other kids behaving like explosively manic prisoners released from months of confinement, they finally gave up on parties and had a couple friends over at a time as their form of social life. They said the party kids looked insane and self-destructive! It scared them!! And why would a kid want to smoke if their body was preciously useful to them. Our daughter tried smoking and reported after a few weeks that her ability to have hard prolonged sex was diminished by it and she was giving it up, and she never smoked again!! Also, they both tried drinking at home for a while, and they gave that up as only mildly interesting but it gave them headaches and made them feel bad the next morning, and so they stopped asking us for liquor! They neither one have ever drank again other than maybe once in a great while socially and there is no liquor in their homes.
Our kids got a sewing machine and made/modified their own clothes, they concluded that another car was waaay too expensive with insurance and what-not, and they relied on bicycles they maintained themselves, and the bus system. They ALWAYS acquired the information they needed to be safe sexually, and they first investigated anything that they thought they might want to try. They were systematic and even asked us questions because they KNEW that we would never try to coerce or restrict them, and so we ALWAYS had their ear if we had worries about what they did, and while we did sometimes beg for their carefulness, and consideration, we typically got it without asking anyway!
All the things this society tells you to do to teens is precisely what insults and abuses them and makes them lose "face", their self-esteem, till they are ready to kill you by killing themselves! Doing precisely the OPPOSITE of what this society tells you to do is how to reverse it!!
Our kids are 33(M) and 30(F) now, and they are happy artful professional programmers, him web-design and grasphics, and her actuarial (demographics-statistics).
Treat your kids as equals, as if they already are the adults that you would like them to learn be, and they will grow into that role.
Treat them as willful disobedient little slaves and that IS what you will get, well into their adulthood, if they even SURVIVE your abuse!!
---------------------------------
Then free her, you moron, before she chews her leg off like a fox in a trap!!
Take this to your so-called professionals and you'll know the one who knows what they are doing by whether they agree!
And you'll know the ones who are brainwashed and have no actual talent by their need to be obedient little sexuo-phobic society-drones.
Steve
puggi ...@earthlink.net
elisa; I can understand exactly where you are coming from. I had been having issues with my daughter for over a year - smoking, huffing, drinking, suicide threats, problems in school. She tried living with her mother for the summer, which seemed to be working out at first, but once school started thing deteriorated horribly.
Like you, I couldn't find any place for help at first. We put her into a specialty boarding school for troubled teens, and, while she is not yet working the program, she is now safe and out of danger. In addition, the rest of the family has begun the healing process. I think that if we hadn't found this then she was on the path to jail and death.
I wanted to help others, so I have started a Blog to describe what we are going through. In addition, it has a referral to get help for your teen. I hope to add more resources to it as I can, including a public message board where parents can discuss their teens.
http://home.earthlink.net/~parenthelp/ I hope you are able to find a solution.
Mike
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
> elisa;
> I can understand exactly where you are coming from. I had been having
> issues with my daughter for over a year - smoking, huffing, drinking,
> suicide threats, problems in school. She tried living with her mother
> for the summer, which seemed to be working out at first, but once
> school started thing deteriorated horribly.
> Like you, I couldn't find any place for help at first. We put her into
> a specialty boarding school for troubled teens, and, while she is not
> yet working the program, she is now safe and out of danger. In
> addition, the rest of the family has begun the healing process. I
> think that if we hadn't found this then she was on the path to jail and
> death.
---------------
The "path to jail and death" comes from the behavior of parents and what a teen is forced to do to combat your abuse and retain their dignity. All you're doing is delaying the results of your actions and your erroneous attitudes.
Steve
Dan Abel da...@sonic.net
And since her children, like mine, came out wonderful in the end, that means both us (the trees) and our fruit (the children) are very worthwhile.
--
Dan Abel da...@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Dan Abel da...@sonic.net
Children go through hell and put their parents through hell at this age. There isn't a heck of a lot you can do, except be strong and continue to show love. You have done the best you could when they were younger, and now they just need to learn to use what you taught them. You can't teach them anything at this age, and it is useless to try. Of course, you have to do what you need to do to keep them from hurting themselves. Chose your battles wisely, and just remember that this to will p***.
--
Dan Abel da...@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
"R. Steve Walz" rste...@armory.com
Given various and ignorant meanings of "worthwhile".
Steve
JoeSmithQ1 ...@yahoo.com
I have a related question that I'm hoping somebody here can answer.
My 16 year old daughter has been going down-hill very quickly. She is very disrespectful to anybody that isn't in her group of friends. She has been arrested for breaking and entering (charges were dropped, but the police are familiar with her), gotten into trouble for being drunk, and she was recently kicked out of school.
About two weeks ago I was going to help her buy a car, but she came home drunk one night at 3:00 am so the car money is gone. That isn't making her very happy.
Yesterday she told me that she's not going to church and that I can't tell her what to do and that she will tell me what to do. I made it clear that she's wrong, but the argument eascalated (on her side) into almost non-stop screaming and locking herself in a bathroom. She punched me a few times and hit me with a plastic thing. I don't think she's physically capable of hurting me, but she could certainly hurt the other kids and possibly my wife.
I know this seems extreme, but I have to make sure that she doesn't run the house and that she doesn't traumatize her brothers. This morning I let her skip church (probably a mistake), but I won't let that happen again. My expectation is that she'll get violent next time. If that happens, I want to get the police involved, or at least know what my rights are. Obviously I'm not going to hit her. As far as I can see, that leaves me with very few options. One option is to let her get her way. The best alternative I can think of is to get the police involved.
Does anybody have any experience getting the police involved with an out of control kid? I don't want her to go to jail, but I don't know how else to protect my other kids and my wife.
Also, is this something that I should call the police and ask about? I feel stupid calling them for something like this, but I don't know what other options I have.
Thanks for any suggestions.
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