Sleep and older children
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"Sue" sburke9...@wideopenwest.com
For the parents of older children, when did you stop telling your kids when to go to bed and letting them decide when to go to sleep? This can be during the school year and summer please.
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Sue (mom to three girls)
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
When they can make responsible decisions? Personally, I don't change things much for the summer. I think it just drives everyone nuts and makes it difficult to get back to things when school starts again. I'll make allowances for special occasions, but not on a regular basis.
My oldest is 11, and we're nowhere near where I'd say he could go to bed whenever he pleased. He clearly needs to go to bed on time to have a successful day. On the other hand, he doesn't give me much grief about it, as he knows quite well he needs the sleep.
I think my parents relaxed things a little bit when I got to high school in that I didn't have a specific bedtime, but there certainly was an expectation I'd head up to bed around 9:30-10pm and be heading for sleep shortly thereafter. I'm sure if I started staying up too late and having trouble functioning the next day, I'd have found a limit real quick. I knew my ability to have some choice in when I went to bed was dependent on my exercising that choice responsibly.
Best wishes, Ericka
Lesley lgcgf...@nospam.net
My oldest is 12.5, 7th grade, and right now we still have a bedtime.
We're thinking that at the beginning of next school year, we'll let her set her own, as long as she can get up. When/if she abuses it, she'll lose the privilege for a while.
In the summer we stick with roughly the same bedtime, though she can leave the lights on and read. Mostly we want grownup time. :-) Lesley
dragonlady meho...@REMOVEpacbell.net
It wasn't an age, and it was different for each of them.
I told them that when they could get up on their own with an alarm clock, and get ready for school and out the door on time without ANY help or interferance from me, and do it every day for two weeks, they could set their own bed time. One did it fairly young, the others not until they were 13 or so. (And the one who did it young is a morning person, anyway -- he always went to bed about the time I'd have sent him, anyway, and got up easily.) Once they were doing that, I let them set their own bedtime during the summer, too.
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Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
dragonlady meho...@REMOVEpacbell.net
With my kids, I decided to let them self-regulate.
That is, as long as they were still getting themselves up in the morning, they could go to bed as late as they wanted.
They each "abused" this a few times, and stayed up all night. However, the natural consequences of not getting enough sleep were enough to convince them to not do that very often.
It seemed to work fairly well, and when they hit college age they knew how to make sure they had enough sleep. (An astonishing number of college kids have NEVER been responsible for their own sleep, and really have a hard time the entire first semester, or even longer.) I did, on occ***ion, announce that it was time for them to go to their rooms -- that their Dad and I needed some time alone. However, eventually, we put a TV in our room, and WE were the ones who went to the bedroom for grownup time!
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Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
Banty Banty_mem...@newsguy.com
I've been doing that for my 13 year old, and he *does* get up and ready (including breakfast) and out on time each and every day. But I'm reconsidering since some reports have come back about nodding off in cl***.
Thing is, we're both nightowls by nature, and he tends to want to stay up with me.
Banty
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Clisby clis...@mindspring.com
My oldest is not quite 10, so that's probably younger than you have in mind. I send her off to bed by 8:30 p.m., but I don't regulate how late she can stay up. If she wants to read before going to sleep, that's OK with me as long as she doesn't have any trouble getting up by 6:30 a.m.
If she did have trouble getting up, we'd have lights out at 8:30 p.m.
too.
By the time I was a teenager, I didn't have a specific bedtime, although I normally went to bed by 9 or 9:30 because I like a *lot* of sleep, and we had to be up by 6 a.m. I'm sure if I had started staggering around from lack of sleep, my parents would have given me a bedtime, but it wasn't necessary.
Clisby
"PattyMomVA" spam_pchavez_s...@mitre.org
"Banty" wrote and I snipped: I was thinking similarly because of my experience with my SD. There are other impacts of not getting enough sleep than not getting out the door on time in the morning.
SD is 16 in 11th grade, and we're finding she is more likely to go to bed based on when her friends say they go to bed than when she needs to in order to get enough sleep. She'll do things like skip breakfast or not walk the dog so as to get out the door in time. (The last time she missed the school bus was years ago.) She'll nod off at school or act grouchy at dinner if she's not getting enough sleep. It seems she has an expectation that teens at her grade level can go to bed whenever it pleases them with no repercussions to the rest of their day.
There's a balancing act because we want her to get enough sleep yet to learn these consequences for herself. So, she currently does not have a fixed bedtime and hasn't for a few years. We do, however, make a comment if we think she's up too late or hasn't been getting enough sleep lately. I think about how she'll be fully in charge of her day-to-day life in less than a year and a half. Most times I'm sure she'll figure it all out. Other times..... well.
-Patty, mom of 1+2
"stasya" mat...@shaw.ca
My 4 yo currently goes to bed on her own. I've done this for the past year with her, and I do this with her 2 yo brother. I send them to their room, after doing all the bedtime stuff, and whatever they do there, is up to them. If we've had a really busy day, they usually just crash. Sometimes they'll stay up a bit, and play or read, but when they're ready, they put themselves down and go to sleep. I think I developed this when I used to have a bedtime routine that ended with them in bed and supposedly ready to go to sleep. Inevitably they wouldn't stay there and I'd be so exasperated with sending and re-sending them back to bed. Now they have the control, and since there's no game to play with mom, they feel free to go to sleep.
Stasya
"Aula" aula.no.spam.ever.h...@a.net
DS is 10.5 and in fourth grade. We don't plan to stop setting bedtimes in the foreseeable future, although we do occasionally accept requests to extend a particular evening's bed time for a good reason well-presented.
-Aula
"C Thompson" lonnicusuoTAKEME...@yahoo.com
I have a very mature 11 year old who has Always gotten herself up with her own clock, on time every morning, so lately we have been giving her a bit more leeway as to when she goes to sleep. Since her bedtime is relatively ingrained in her she doesn't need a lot of reminding. Sometimes we have to give her a push or remind her what time it is but I think that by the start of next school year she will be able to handle her sleep schedule.
My 11 year old stepson is here with us only during off-school times and he is pretty good and self sleep regulation because he has a very early schedule during the school year.
My 6 year old will probably be older by the time he is allowed to regulate his own sleep. He was born a night owl like me and remains a night owl. It is incredibly difficult to change that in him.
Cindi Happy Mama to Three
Mary_Gor ...@tvo.org
My kids are 15, 12 and 8. The older two are in their rooms by 9:30, but end up reading, talking and giggling until 10 and beyond (even after the lights are out, I can still hear them telling each other silly stories and jokes). My youngest goes to bed around 9, lights out at 9:30 and usually falls asleep really fast. I know these bedtimes are later than average - but they work okay for these particular kids.
I know this since all three get up okay in the morning, which is really my test, and aren't super tired or droopy in the afternoon or evening.
If any of them were hard to roust on time in the morning, I'd pull their bedtimes back earlier.
They do stay up later on weekends - particularly the two older boys. My daughter often is tired and asks to go to bed around her usual bedtime.
They all like to sleep in on weekends. We have a summer cottage, and houseguests are always blown away by my kids sawing it off on a summers day until 9 am. They figure kids will be up and at 'em and out the door by daybreak.
M.
Marie annadog...@yahoo.com
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:06:54 -0400, "Sue" My older two are 9.5 and almost 11, and I have been letting them go to bed whenever they wanted for about two years now. Occasionally I will be really tired of them and make them read in their beds, which means the oldest will fall asleep quickly lol. On their own, they fall asleep between 10-midnight. They are up between 9-11am most mornings.
Sometimes the oldest daughter gets up earlier, because she falls asleep earlier.
Marie
"shinypenny" shinypenny0...@yahoo.com
Well, I've never told them when to go to "sleep" because people don't sleep on command. :-) My DD's are 11 and 13. For the last few years, they've had a bedtime of 8:30 - 9 pm on school nights. During weekends and summer it's later and can vary widely. There's more flexibility depending on what's going on to keep them up, or the schedule for the next day.
Bedtime means in bed, jammies on, shower taken, and teeth brushed. It doesn't necessarily mean lights out and asleep. If they want to read quietly or listen to music, they do so. They are responsible these days for turning off their own light when they're ready. DD11 will often be fast asleep within 20 minutes - she's always needed a ton of sleep.
DD13, however, has always needed a lot less. Some nights she will still be up reading long after I've turned off my light.
Neither kid needs any help to wake up in the morning, so they must be getting the right amount of sleep for their individual needs. Both have alarm clocks set at 7 am and they must be out the door by 8 am. I never have to go in their bedrooms and blast them out of bed. Sometimes they are even up before their alarm clocks, and often they are awake before me. I'll hear them in the kitchen getting their breakfast, and that's when I roll out of bed.
Because they have no problem waking themselves up in the morning, this year I've slowly been changing my approach with DD13. Instead of telling her it's time to go to bed and marching her in that direction (which I still do with DD11), I try instead to *suggest* she might want to turn in.
For example, her homework load is greater this year, so if extracurricular activities prevented her from completing her homework before dinner, often she will be up past 10 pm still doing homework. I will "suggest" to her that maybe instead of doing homework at night, which may then keep her brain too active to fall asleep, that she wind down, read, take a shower, go to bed early, but set her alarm to get up early to complete the homework when she's fresher. Sometimes she takes my advice, but when she doesn't, that's okay too - she's proven capable of managing her own schedule and even when she miscalculates, she is learning her own lesson.
So I see my role from here on out as coach and advisor, more than dictator. Of course, that could change next year if I find I have to blast her out of bed.... I doubt it with her (she's well into puberty already). But DD11 is probably going to be another story. :-) Oh, and we have other house rules including no phone calls, t.v., or computer use after 8:30 pm. I think that helps encourage sleepiness too.
jen
"Sue" sburke9...@wideopenwest.com
Your approach is what I have been doing.
I have a 13, 10, and a 9-year-old. The two older girls are able to go to sleep on their own and get up without any prodding from me. It's the 9-year-old I have a problem with. During the school year, I put them to bed at 9 pm, but whether they sleep or not is not up to me. The olders ones read or listen to their radios. DD1 and 2 really are very good with self reglatory about getting ready without any help from me. Again, it's the 9-year-old that I have to blast out of bed in the morning because she has a hard time falling asleep. Then, during the summer, I just let them go to bed whenever; however, that really sets us up for a disaster when school starts again. My main problem is that both of us work and get up very early so I don't exactly want to send my kids to bed at 9 pm during the summer. I figured my 13-year-old wouldn't like that very much. I guess my plan is to stick to a 10 pm bedtime during the summer and tell them that they can do whatever they like in their rooms quietly and that way I can still go to bed when I need to. I would like to give my 13 and 10-year-olds more free reign to go to bed when they want, but it won't fly with the 9-year-old because I will hear that it's not fair. My girls definitely sleep in, in the morning.
During the summer and on school holidays, they usually are not up until 9 am or after. The youngest one; however, is the one that always sleeps the latest. She has been known to sleep to 11 on some mornings, lol, but she stays up late. As far as the computer, I definitely want them off for a time before bed. That thing is driving me up a wall.
Thank you everyone for your response. I don't feel so bad now having a set bedtime still. From what I hear from the girls, is that their friends don't have bedtimes and get to stay up much later, but I don't know if it is true or not.
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Sue (mom to three girls)
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
I completely wouldn't worry about the "it's not fair" charge. It's *FINE* for older kids to have more privileges, and it's *FINE* for kids who have earned a privilege with appropriate decision making to have a privilege not granted to kids who have not made good decisions and thus not earned the privilege. Now, it may be more than it's worth to deal with the fuss over the perceived unfairness, but to some extent, I think it's *important* for kids to go through the process of earning privileges along with commensurate responsibilities as they get older and more mature. I know it sucks for the younger kid who doesn't get the privileges as fast, but it is tempered with the increased need for responsibility that goes along with the privileges.
On the other hand, I also wouldn't feel one bit guilty about not allowing things to go haywire in the summer. As you point out, *you* don't get a summer break and still need a decent night's sleep. I also think that it just isn't good for anyone to muck with their sleep schedule too much. As they get older, every day they sleep in until whenever encourages a behavior that becomes harder and harder to break when it comes time to get in the groove when the school year starts. It also starts a pattern of thinking that says I *deserve* to sleep in whenever I don't have to go to school/work/whatever, which leads to a lot of wasted mornings. I think lie-ins should be special occasion sorts of things (late nights too). So, even in summer, and even with older kids, and even if they didn't have any morning obligations, I'm still not on board with unregulated bed times/wake times if the result is that they embark on a relatively consistent pattern of staying up late and sleeping in. If they self-regulate well, and just occasionally stay up late or sleep in, that's no biggie.
Best wishes, Ericka
"shinypenny" shinypenny0...@yahoo.com
It is true most of my DD's friends have later bedtimes. I know this for a fact, having talked with their parents, but they can make their own rules. Doesn't work for me, but then again, I'm almost always in bed by 9:30 and sound asleep around 11:15 (right after Daily Show headlines).
Also we had a problem early in the school year with friends calling at all hours of the evening, even after *I'd* already gone to bed (!), but we nipped that in the bud quickly with our "no calls after 8:30 pm" rule.
When they have slumber parties I don't have any restrictions - they can stay up as long as they like, as long as they aren't keeping the rest of the house awake. Yes, they've pulled some all-nighters, but it was on the weekend so I didn't mind. If I did, I wouldn't have allowed the sleepover!
As for the summer bedtimes, we have little control over consistency because we share the kids in the summer with my ex, his parents, and my parents. On my weeks, they do keep a decent bedtime because the next day is camp, which gets them good and pooped. Transition back to school bedtimes is a little painful, but only takes about a week.
As for weekends, except for slumber parties, the girls usually get up around the same time as during the week give or take an hour, but every once in awhile they'll sleep in for hours and hours. I just figure they're having a growth spurt and let them be. We are all slow-starters on weekends anyway.
jen
"shinypenny" shinypenny0...@yahoo.com
Actually, I believe I've read research indicating that it is quite natural for a teen's sleep schedule to gradually drift. Something to do with puberty changes. I suppose it's good to try to help them keep their schedule from drifting too much, but also you might be fighting something that's natural for this age anyway.
As for sleeping in late on weekends, I would never have the heart to wake a teen. I know theoretically it might prevent them from going to bed later that night (and hence, their schedule slipping), but I also know that the body and brain grow during sleep. So sleeping in (provided they don't have school) is good..... even if the teen's in bed until lunchtime.
jen
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift, and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more difficult.
I just can't go there as a regular thing. If they need to catch up some, then I expect them to generally go to bed at a reasonable hour. If they do that and need to catch up a bit on the weekend, I don't mind them getting up a bit later, (I'm not going to haul them out at 6am!) but sleeping in until noon on a regular basis just isn't okay with me.
So, my poor kids will just have to slog through life at home with only occasional moderate lie-ins and probably bedtimes earlier than their peers (since they seem to have a high need for sleep) ;-) Best wishes, Ericka
Banty Banty_mem...@newsguy.com
For that reason I do let my teen sleep in on weekends. Plus I get quiet time :) But I don't let that pattern persist through vacation or summer times. Then it just gets later and laater and laaater and laaaater.
So during those times I'll rouse him at about 10:00 each morning.
Banty
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"bizby40" bizb...@adelphia.net
In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might be tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running on adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine.
So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just to avoid one or two days of adjustment.
I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in, and so you don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I just don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real way -- particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school schedule.
Bizby
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
Mine take a lot longer to adjust.
Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since they're early risers to begin with. However, I can see DS1 drifting towards later wakings ever so slightly. I don't mind them sleeping in a bit during the summer (heck, I *wish* they'd sleep in a bit!), but I do expect folks up and ready to go at a reasonable hour. Weekends are family time, and I don't really expect to have to give up half of it because someone wants to stay up late and sleep in.
For the summer, there are still things to do during the day. If I wait to get out until noon, I'm screwed because then it's naptime!
Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however, the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So, we get up and get going and take care of business.
To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it, but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie around half the day and stall everyone else's day because they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later, but in our family, there are things to get done and people who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really, although it's not something every family needs to do, I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to get up and get going in the morning. My family would have gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer.
Best wishes, Ericka
"Welches" debbie.welc...@SPAMntlworldPLEASE.com
Actually I always needed a few days of major lie-ins at the start of the holidays. Like 12ish. Then on the whole late rising (10ish) on the days I could. I never had a problem with the readjusting, even if I had always risen late during the holidays. If I didn't have the time to do those lie-ins then I would struggle through the next term health wise.
Also my term time schedule for rising was 7:30-7:45 Monday to Friday, about 10-12 Saturday depending on how tired I was, then about 8:00 (for tennis) on Sunday. Again, I needed to have that lie in regularly, but when I knew I had to rise, it wasn't a problem.
Debbie
Rosalie B. gmbeas...@mindspring.com
I can't really remember (this is really straining my memory cells). I know my mom called me in the morning all the way through high school, and in college I had a clock radio and freshman year we had lights out at 10:30. There was a girl in my dorm who didn't want to go to bed at 10:30, so she used to knit argyle socks in the dark until she wanted to go to sleep. I found this unimaginable - even just knitting argyles in the light was more than I would have been able to do.
Before I went off to college, and after freshman year IN college, I did read and sometimes I wouldn't turn off the light until pretty late. I still do that.
My sister is a night owl, and she has always been hard to get up in the morning.
I'm pretty sure that my kids always got themselves up early. I think we are all early bird types. DD#1 would get up to eat breakfast with her dad (dh) when she was in kindergarten and he would leave about 6 or 6:30 IIRC. DD#1 (and also dd#3) needed their sleep, so although they got up early, they took naps right up to first grade, and there was never any problem with them going to bed at a reasonable time.
DD#2 would get up early and practice an instrument, and in hs she would ride a motorcycle down to the barn (kids weren't allowed to be out on the road in a car before 6 am but they didn't think of restricting motorcycles) so that she could ride and groom the horse and get back and shower before school. This was totally her own idea.
Most of the problems I observe with my grandchildren has to do with their getting their homework done so that they can go to bed at a reasonable hour, because some of them have so many after school activities that they can't do it in the afternoon.
I do remember being friends with the wife of a co-worker - actually a student in dh's PG school cl*** who was a lark (early riser) married to a complete night owl. Night owl doesn't do in the Navy. The Navy is for larks. Anyway they had a very active boy and they had to tag team him. He'd stay up until 2 am with his dad, and then his mom would be up at 6 am with him.
grandma Rosalie
"bizby40" bizb...@adelphia.net
??? Then I'm a bit surprised you weighed in on this issue in the way you have. I have one of each. DS is usually the first one up on the weekends and all summer. DD likes to sleep in, and 10 is common for her, sometimes it's later.
Well, sure, but getting up because you need to for whatever reason is different than just deciding that everyone needs to be up by X:00 just because.
If your only issue is that they need enough sleep to get up and do the things they need to do during the summer, then I have no argument with that. It sounded like you were saying that they needed to get up early all summer long because not doing so would somehow mess them up for the school year, and I don't see that. I did indeed sleep to and past lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer when I was a teen.
I was also usually up until past dawn reading, so I had a pretty typical 7-8 hours of sleep daily, it just wasn't normally at night.
I was in the top few percent of my high school cl***, made dean's list in college, and when I landed my first 8-5 job, was in bed by 11:00 every night so I could be up and fresh and ready to work on time. The key to me is to have a sleep schedule that works for you.
Bizby
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