Polish Troops Find New French Missiles in Iraq
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dav1936 ...@aol.com (Dav1936531)
Our "dear allies", the French again.
Dave WARSAW (Reuters) - Polish troops in Iraq have found four French-built advanced anti-aircraft missiles which were built this year, a Polish Defense Ministry spokesman told Reuters Friday.
France strongly denied having sold any such missiles to Iraq for nearly two decades, and said it was impossible that its newest missiles should turn up in Iraq.
"Polish troops discovered an ammunition depot on Sept. 29 near the region of Hilla and there were four French-made Roland-type missiles," Defense Ministry spokesman Eugeniusz Mleczak said.
"It is not the first time Polish troops found ammunition in Iraq but to our surprise these missiles were produced in 2003." The Roland anti-aircraft system is a short-range air defense missile in service with at least 10 countries, including France and Germany.
They are fired from a mobile launcher vehicle and defense experts say the missiles are highly effective against aircraft attacking at low and medium altitude.
Under a strict trade embargo imposed by the United Nations, Iraq was barred from importing arms after its invasion of Kuwait in 1990.
Among others, Russia, Britain and France all sold arms to Iraq in the 1970s and 1980s. In Iraq's arsenal were Soviet-built Scud missiles, British Chieftain tanks and French Mirage fighters.
But Iraq managed to circumvent the arms trade ban in the 1990s through shadowy deals with various arms traders and kept its military equipment functioning.
"NO MILITARY EXPORTS" "Since July 1990, France has not authorized a single shipment of military equipment to Iraq," a French Foreign Ministry spokeswoman told Reuters. Similar accusations surfaced in the U.S. media in April, she said.
In 1980-81, 13 Roland-1 missile systems were shipped to Iraq and from 1983 to 1986, 100 Roland-2 missile systems. The Roland-3 has never been exported to Iraq, she said.
"It is not credible to say that the Roland missiles found a few days ago were produced in 2003 and delivered just before the Anglo-American intervention," the spokeswoman said. "Let's be absolutely clear about this: no military exports to Iraq were licensed after July 1990." It was unlikely that the missiles could be used 17-18 years after their delivery, she added.
Mleczak said Polish troops were notified about the missiles by a local Iraqi, who received a reward for the information.
"The ammunition depot was neutralized," said Mleczak. Polish television pictures showed missiles placed in a shallow trench and a huge explosion when the Poles blew up munitions at the site.
Since early September, Poland, a staunch supporter of the U.S.-led war in Iraq, has led a multinational force in one of four so-called stabilization zones, in central Iraq.
In the run-up to the outbreak of the 2003 Iraq war, American and British combat pilots struck Iraqi anti-aircraft batteries repeatedly as they patrolled no-fly zones in the north and south of the country.
10/03/03 15:49 ET
ph ...@cabalamat.org (phil hunt)
According to FAS, Roland development started in 1964, and its top speed is a measly Mach 1.6, slower than most fighters. If that's "advanced" then a geriatric granny with arthritis can win a marathon.
A quick Google verifies that Roland isn't the newest French SAM.
Reuters journalists presumably have access to the net and could easily check this up. I wonder what other parts of the article are falsehoods?
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Chad Irby ci...@cfl.rr.com
"Advanced" means it has a newer targeting system, hence "Roland III." Which goes Mach 1.8...
There are some short-range missiles that are faster, but most of them are about the same speed, since you seldom see low-level movers going past Mach 1.
Since the missiles were apparently built and delivered this *year*, they're certainly *among* the newest. The Roland 3 is still in production.
Well, before you can have "other," you need "one." And since the missiles in question were apparently built and delivered this year (and since the Roland 3 started production in 1995, certainly since the start of sanctions), it sure blows that "arms embargo" we thought the French were cooperating with.
It's also not the first Roland 3 we've found.
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cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
"Blair Maynard" DELETEMEblair_mayn...@hotmail.com
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How fast must a missile fly for a Blackhawk to have a bit of trouble flying?
Wait, let me rephrase that....
How fast does a missile have to fly for a Blackhawk to have more trouble flying than the Blackhawk normally has (just by the nature of being a Blackhawk)?
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"TJ" yruxulNOS...@hotmail.com
The story also broke in April when a US intelligence officer came across a stockpile of Roland in Iraq. On the missiles were plates with the following "05/11 KND 2002" It was deemed from this that the missiles were built in 2002 and came from France. What people failed to realise was that the Iraqi's spent great time and effort in returning what they had in their inventories back to an operational state. The missile tag could easily have come from the fact that a Roland supplied pre 1990 was put through the Iraqi Kindi Research, Testing, Development, and Engineering facility and tagged with Iraqi's own marker tag. This is a possible reference to the "KND" tag.The Iranians for example reverse engineered British Rapier SAMs and the Iraqi's had a good history of missile development, they could with effort refurbish and extend existing missiles in their inventory. The Iraqi's also cobbled together SA-6's with infra-red seeker heads from AA-8 Aphid air-to-air missiles. These missiles were also discovered by US troops. This recent breaking story needs more indepth analysis. Simply having a tag with a 2002 or 2003 date on it proves nothing if the Iraqi's simply refurbished and extended the life of existing stocks of Rolands and tagged them accordingly.
TJ
Cub Driver l...@my.sig.fil
That was pretty fast. D'you spose they were shipped in since April?
all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
"Simon Robbins" si...@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk
Since short-ranged SAMs are designed for defence of ground installations they don't need to be hypersonic. I don't know of any aircraft that would safely (and accurately) be able to deliver ground ordnance in supersonic flight. I believe most ground attack aircraft and fighters would be doing in the range of 400-600 kts over a target area.
Si
"Simon Robbins" si...@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk
Doubt it, unless the Allies are in even less control over the country's borders than we're led to believe. Another point worth remembering is just because they were made in France, doesn't mean they came from France. You can buy a wealth of western military equipment on the black market.
Si
Chad Irby ci...@cfl.rr.com
...but having a notably different (heavier and larger) Roland 3 missile is what most people would call a "smoking gun." The launchers are different, too.
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cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
Chad Irby ci...@cfl.rr.com
No, since January.
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cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
Chad Irby ci...@cfl.rr.com
The Polish troops didn't destroy anything, and the launcher we found earliter was easily identified.
Try again.
And stop selling weapons to people when you've agreed not to.
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cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
"hlg" h...@ga110n7744.freeserve.co.uk
<snip> No Chieftain tanks were sold to Iraq by Britain. The Iraqis did capture a large number (perhaps 100) from Iran. These were mostly refurbished and p***ed on to Jordan. Some of these may remain in service (though this is unlikely, given their age, lack of reliability, and Jordan's recent purchase of the entire stock of Challenger I's).
"Pierre-Henri Baras" ph...@free.fr
try what? you're the one with issues here.
why should we when you don't?
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_________________________________________ Pierre-Henri BARAS Co-webmaster de French Fleet Air Arm http://www.ffaa.net Encyclop?©die de l'Aviation sur le web http://www.aviation-fr.info
Andrew Chaplin abchap...@yourfinger.rogers.com
"Tu quoque" fallacy.
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Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Roman J. Rohleder rjrgrou...@gmx.net
Did you read the article? According to the original text, the Polish blew up the site, including the stocks.. See:
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"The ammunition depot was neutralized," said Mleczak. Polish television pictures showed missiles placed in a shallow trench and a huge explosion when the Poles blew up munitions at the site.>
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Gruss, Roman
Greg Hennessy m...@privacy.net
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:05:37 +0100, "Simon Robbins" Easily tested, I am sure the french will be only too happy to tell us who they sold them too based on the serial number on each and ever yone.
greg
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mith ...@iafrica.com (Grantland)
It's a smear, ArVa. It's a dirty, dishonorable smear.
Grantland
brooks ...@yahoo.com (Kevin Brooks)
Not saying that the report is true, but I believe Roland has remained in production to the present?
Brooks
"Simon Robbins" si...@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk
Could be, but the reports are saying that the equipment has already been destroyed.
Si
Skysurfer p...@de.mail.com
Kevin Brooks nous disait : Roland 2 is not producted since 1988.
Roland 3 is not producted since 1993.
Alan Minyard aminyar...@netdoor.com
Why not? France was obviously Saddam's best friend, and the French Govt would do "anything" for money.
The point is that France was selling missiles to Saddam right up until the end. And why would the Poles lie about finding the Rolands?
France is an enemy country.
Al Minyard
Skysurfer p...@de.mail.com
Alan Minyard wrote : http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LEO304B.html No weapons sale since 1990.
Should we say that USA is Taliban's best friend because they sold them Stingers in 80's ?
Roman J. Rohleder rjrgrou...@gmx.net
Does one of you know the source of the posted article which started this thread? There is no indication but the Reuters tag. I don??t like it when I don??t know the source.
(The Talib came up in the early/mid-1990s).
The USA didn??t sell Stingers to the Mudjahedin. How could they have payed for it but with raw Opium? No, the weapons were gifted to them.
But.. excellent point!
Gruss, Roman
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