ROTC and choosing your service
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dgray0 ...@yahoo.com
Hi. I apologize in advance for the length of this message. I am currently in the process of getting my college situation all put together and am hoping to get an ROTC scholarship. My problem is I really don't know much about the military, except that I believe in it and think it is a good cause. I'm trying to figure out if I want to do the Army or the Navy ROTC programs, and was hoping somebody could offer their opinion or some resource to help me make my decision.
To be honest, I see that both have serious downsides. With the Navy, you could get stuck on a ship in God-knows-where for a year or two, away from civilization. If, for example, you really don't want to be on a submarine, and you're a reasonably good student, do you risk getting put onto a submarine? What is the service selection like for NROTC students? In the Army, I hear that it is possible for you to get stuck in a fort in Kansas, and train all the time but never actually participate in missions. I haven't heard anything about "service selection" in the Army... does it exist?
Also, and I'm sorry if I come off as a coward, but where is the greater chance of dying? I would just like to know before I make my decision. Also, does anyone know anything about the NROTC programs at MIT/Harvard or Cal Berkeley/Stanford? or the Army ROTC programs at Princeton, MIT/Harvard or Yale? I know I heard something about the service choosing your university for you, what does that mean?
I'm sure I didn't offer nearly enough information, and I'm sorry my question is so broad. If there's anything else I should tell you, I would be happy to, and thank you in advance for all your help.
Steven James Forsberg sjfor...@bayou.uh.edu
: To be honest, I see that both have serious downsides. With the Navy, : you could get stuck on a ship in God-knows-where for a year or two, : away from civilization. If, for example, you really don't want to be : on a submarine, and you're a reasonably good student, do you risk : getting put onto a submarine? What is the service selection like for : NROTC students? In the Army, I hear that it is possible for you to get : stuck in a fort in Kansas, and train all the time but never actually : participate in missions. I haven't heard anything about "service : selection" in the Army... does it exist?
: Also, and I'm sorry if I come off as a coward, but where is the : greater chance of dying? I would just like to know before I make my : decision. Also, does anyone know anything about the NROTC programs at : MIT/Harvard or Cal Berkeley/Stanford? or the Army ROTC programs at : Princeton, MIT/Harvard or Yale? I know I heard something about the : service choosing your university for you, what does that mean?
Well, you've started off wisely - seeking information and advice to make an informed decision. There are definitely big differences between the services, and even bigger differences between various career fields within the services. A little bit of forethought can help keep you out of a situation that you may hate.
First -- the ROTC programs are primarily designed to provide what are called "line" officers for the services. These are usually the biggest and most central jobs in the service. While you can go from ROTC to various specialized career fields (like healthcare, admin, logistics, crypto, etc.) the main idea is to get you into one of the 'main' career fields. For the Navy the big three are Submarines, Surface, and Aviation.
The Army would push Infantry, Artillery, Armor, and related combat arms like Air Defense and such. The AF has a big divide between pilots (and other aircrew) and "everyone else". For example, if you are an accounting major and want to do primarily accounting every day then you would want to avoid, say, infantry. Once again, you can from ROTC to various specialty and staff fields, but the main emphasis on 'line' officers. You need to make clear from the start what your goals are and what you want, if you want something unusual.
Choosing your field? It varies. In this day and age the military really wants you to be happy, officers these days "negotiate" orders. But in the end "the needs of the service" rule. Normally, the Navy will only take volunteers for Submarine or Aviation duty. So if you want the Surface navy, you can get it by default. If you want to move into a 'specialty' like communications or such, a lot will depend on what the Navy needs at the moment as well as any special preparations you've made.
The Army is bit more problematic. It is easier to get put into a different field, because typically you're going to be qualified for all of them (except perhaps aviation). Thus, if you want Artillery and they don't any more, you may get Infantry. However, there is some flexibility and typically the services let the top students pick and choose first.
So if you are a top notch student, you can usually get what you want.
I'm less familiar with the AF, but there is a big "flyers vs.
everyone else" divide. Of course, the Navy has a "Marine Corps" option if you are interested in Army-type jobs with a decidedly different attitude.
Death? Always a possibility. In a major war, naturally those on the front lines (or flying above them) are typically in the greatest danger. Infantry, of course, takes the heat. The Navy is more of a mixed bag -- if the ship goes, everyone goes -- from the captain to the cooks.
So there is typically less danger, but when it happens it is a real calamity.
Pilots, of course, get to fly to wherever it is dangerous.
The greatest threat, however, is driving accidents stateside followed by various occupational hazards. Some of the major "career interest inventories" will list your affinity for the various military officer branches. Ask you college career counselor which ones (like the Strong, IIRC) and take them to see what they come up with.
regards,
------------------------------------------------
sjfor...@bayou.uh.edu
Ogden Johnson III o...@cpcug.org
Your post shows that you have not put in even minimal research on a decision that could affect your life seriously over eight or nine years at the minimum.
A few days out of your summer vacation time spent on some research in your high school/community library can get you up to speed and clear up the gross misconceptions you have about the Army and the Navy [and you didn't even mention the USMC or the Air Force - they draw from ROTC too.] So, do some research in the library. Then talk to some recruiters -
not the ones who recruit for enlisted service, there are recruiters out there who deal with Officer recruitment. You mentioned some colleges. Check out their web pages and college catalogs. Many ROTC/NROTC units maintain pages on their college's site or one of their own, but even if they don't, you can write to them [the old-fashioned thing you probably know as "snail mail"].
After you've done your homework; then's the time for you to come here [either/both newsgroups] and ask questions. "The recruiter told me {thus and so}; is that right or was he leaving something out?" "I'm inclined towards engineering, should I think about going nuke - sub or surface?, or does the Army offer me better possibilities as an engineering major?" Things like that.
OJ III
Peter Skelton skelt...@cogeco.ca
You seem to be focused on the downsides. It's a good idea to consider downsides, but isn't it better to focus on what you want to do, and how to get the chance to do it? Think about what you can contribute and what you will get from it. Find paths that fit and then think about pitfalls.
One thing I nagged my kids about was making choices that gave them good options because at 18 it's really hard to guess what you'll like when you're 24. A quarter of a life-time before 18 is 13.5 - are one's interests at 13 and a half the same as at 18? It has turned out to be good advice for my daughter, for my son it's too early to tell.
I'm not military, so I'll p*** on advising what service to go into.
____ Peter Skelton
dgray0 ...@yahoo.com
Ogden, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I have done a ton of research on the subject, but couldn't find many actual answers on any websites. I posted to this newsgroup hoping to hear PEOPLE talk about what they thought the answers to my questions were, because I found the Army and Navy's websites to sound... "machine-like." The Army just sort of babbled about how it was the best thing in the world to do, and the Navy's information was very sparse, and just referred me to the individual NROTC units' web sites, which were, in general, of poor quality and didn't say much.
I thought I was supposed to have a solid idea of what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go when I talked to my recruitment officer. Is that not the case?
I found those pages. I read all the stuff I could, and found the most information under the sections for parents of newly admitted midshipmen/cadets and the schedules for the midshipmen/cadets themselves. The sites were pretty uninformative, in general.
Again, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I just don't know much about the military, and was hoping to glean the most rudimentary information from you guys--that kind of "common knowledge" is so hard to find in books. :) Thank you.
Steve Bartman sbart...@visi.com
I was in submarines. So far as I know there was only one year--1980--where nukes were drafted and some got subs without volunteering. It didn't work that well, and I don't think it's been done since.
That said, submarines are excellent duty in many ways.
What is the service selection like for Not sure what you mean by service selection, but in the Navy, unless you develop a physical problem late in the program, you're most likely going to be an unrestricted line officer and go to sea in your initial tour, or fly in your initial tour, probably from a carrier. I know of several cases where a knee or shoulder injury was severe enough to prevent unrestricted line, but not severe enough for a medical discharge, and those midshipmen became Supply Corps officers and, you guessed it, went to sea.
The Navy is about ships and aircraft that fly from ships. If you don't like ships or the idea of being at sea you probably shouldn't go Navy.
OTOH, a young naval officer generally gets more responsibility right away than the other services.
As someone else said, the infantry. But you can die in the military anywhere, in peacetime or wartime. In the Navy your statistical chances of dying are greater if you fly than if you float, but they aren't that great in any case. And lots of civilians get hit by cars; they're rare at sea.
but I would just like to know before I make my I believe the former is combined because Harvard doesn't allow ROTC on campus since the war protests in the 1960s. From what I've heard it's not the in thing to do at Harvard. There was a Wall Street Journal story about it maybe two years ago. Don't recall details, but the folks in the program spent a lot of time driving over to MIT and back.
NROTC programs are pretty much the same everywhere, with minor facility differences. The curriculum is centrally devised, the instructors are active duty officers, petty officers, and NCOs. You take summer cruises with midshipmen from other schools. The difference is the college or university the unit is attached to. Those differ a lot.
or the Army ROTC programs at When I was applying in the mid-1970s (didn't get in; bad eyes. Went OCS after I graduated) admission to the university was completely the responsibility of the student. IOW, the two admissions were separate.
If the NROTC unit at Michigan wanted you but you couldn't get into Michigan because of bad grades, you weren't going to Michigan, NROTC or not.
There used to be, in the Stone Age before the Web, lots of shiny brochures about NROTC. My school guidance counselors had boxes of them. Any recruiter should have them or be able to get them. The USN web site ought to have an 800- number where you can call to get info.
If all else fails, call the nearest NROTC unit and ask to speak to the CO. You probably won't get him/her, but they should at least know how you can find accurate information. Often they don't mind a visit during the summer if it would help you make a good decision. Take every opportunity to get data, and really listen. It's a two-sided coin. Many only see the scholarship, but there's a pay-back you'll have to be ready to undertake.
Good luck.
Steve
--
A new technothriller that asks the question: "Can a perfect prison contain perfect evil?" www.thepaxamsolution.com
Earl nept...@wt.net
During the early 60s there was a m***ive expansion of the nuc subs with the 41 Polaris and the 593/637 attacks, To fill the quotas there was a "draft" of otherwise surface officer candidates into the sub force.
During WW2 there was arbitrary ***ignment of drafees to subs.
Whenever there is an unmet requirements, BuPers will supply.
David Phillips david.phill...@sas.com
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:08:08 -0500, "Duke of URL" Mind you, it's been 25 years since I graduated with a USN commission from NROTC, but do those schools that you name actually HAVE any ROTC programs? I really can't see Cal Berkeley allowing ROTC on campus.
That said, my experience was that applying to NROTC, and applying to Univ. of PA were entirely separate things. I don't think they can/will choose your university for you ... the university has to accept you, first.
cmant ...@ozmail.cjb.net (Chris Manteuffel)
Harvard still has no ROTC program of their own. They don't even fund the people travelling to MIT any more because the Harvard faculty voted in 1994 that Don't Ask, Don't tell was discriminatory. Until recently, they didn't even allow military recruiters on campus because of that policy (recruiters were mostly going after law and med schools). A US law that took effect last year said that if you didn't allow recruiters on campus you couldn't recieve ANY federal funding for anything (including research grants); Harvard caved like all other schools which had adopted such a policy. Money trumps principles 99 times out of 100 in college.
However, the military does not want to reopen Harvard ROTC. They closed a lot of ROTC's in schools that don't have many students join, preferring to centralize the ROTC groups from many small schools- as the article below says, not only do Harvard and MIT share the same ROTC but Wellsley and Tufts are in that ROTC batt. as well. Works better for a town like Boston then a town like Blacksburg, obviously, but it does seem like it could keep costs down without a real drop in recruiting or quality of officers.
http://www.uwire.com/content/topnews011802003.html is about efforts to increase the visibility of ROTC at Harvard.
Chris Manteuffel
jacklinthi ...@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum)
> I really can't see Cal Berkeley allowing ROTC on campus.
Well, they have a web site for it, whether its allowed or not.
http://navyrotc.berkeley.edu/ As an elderly salt whose experience is probably worthless I'll ask you to ask yourself: do I want to run the world while I'm in the service?
If so, and you go Navy chose submarines or aviation. All but a tiny minority of the Admirals are sub or air. There is probably a list of Army and Air Force officers at recruiters or ROTC campus offices that will tell you which specialties are the "golden" ones. I was in cryptologic, OCS trained. I did 6 years and was in many places in the world and saw some sea duty too. Those guys who were in the reconnaisance P-3 that the Chinese ran to earth were probably Navy cryptologic types. Same with those on the Liberty and the Pueblo. It can be dicey duty, and you will probably never make Captain, let alone Admiral.
If you can get into Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard or MIT go there. If you need help (ROTC) push it. There is OCS at the end of the line if you still like the service and can make a selection based on your education.
David Phillips david.phill...@sas.com
I am absolutely astonished. Pleased, but astonished.
I would have thought UCB would have kicked ROTC off campus in the late 60s. Perhaps they were able to stay because UCB is not a private school. It would be very interesting to know what their battalion size was during that era, and how many came from other schools vs.
Berkeley proper.
David Penn NROTC '78
dgray0 ...@yahoo.com
I think I should mention two things... first, I'm not doing this for the scholarship. It has always been an agreement between my parents and me that if I get into a top-notch school, they'll pay for it, no questions. I really don't need the scholarship, but, hey, if you found a $100 bill on the floor, would you pick it up? ;) I'm only doing this because I really want the experience of being in ROTC and training to be a military officer capable of leading young men into battle. My main reason for wanting the scholarship itself, though, is because it is a nationally recognized award that helps you get _in_ to college.
Sorry if that sounds pompous or anything, I don't mean it to.
Second, I am hoping to delay my duty and go to Med School, and then serve in the Navy in the Medical Corps. I understand that it is a competitive program, but I know that hard work (especially in school, for this, no?) is often rewarded with options, and I'm prepared to work for that option.
I would love to hear your comments about my plan, and thank you for your help so far.
Dale Farmer D...@cybercom.net
If you are definitely wanting to be a doctor, check out the Uniformed Services University for health sciences in Bethesda, MD. You enlist and get E-5 pay while you attend medical school full time in Bethesda.
The Navy has special program recruiters who can give you that information. IIRC, it is a six years in school, get your MD, then six year service obligation. If you flunk out, then you owe enlisted service for however many years completed. Everything I know about the program is out of date, and secondhand, so go to the source.
--Dale
"Ryan Maves" rcma...@attbi.com
USUHS students are college graduates and are commissioned as ensigns or second lieutenants and paid as O-1s while in medical school. At the conclusion of the usual amount of medical school (four years), they are promoted to O-3 as they receive their M.D. degrees. You owe seven years of active duty time, not counting time spent in residency, for attending USUHS.
-rcm
Steve Bartman sbart...@visi.com
OK.
I really don't need the scholarship, but, hey, if you found Two other comments then. One, if you really want military immersion that prepares you for battle, consider the academies. More free than ROTC, where you still have to pay room and board, and you'll be immersed in the military 24/7. Or, go the other way. Do college on your parents' dime, enjoy yourself, then go to OCS after you get your degree. Thirteen weeks, bingo-bango, you're a naval officer headed to the fleet.
ROTC/NROTC is a trade-off. It takes credit hours you might want for other courses or to pursue a second degree. I don't know anymore, but they may steer you into a technical major you don't care for (used to be an 80/20 rule for engineering and hard sciences versus liberal arts and business. This very likely is not the case any longer though.
Check.) With OCS you can major in what you want. I had a History degree and had no problem with the application process or graduating in the top 15% of my OCS cl***. (I did come from a Navy family and had 2.5 years of NJROTC in HS.) My I'm not sure that's the case. Where are you getting this info? On timing alone it seems unlikely that the scholarship news would be available in time to include in the university package, and public universities normally divorce funding decisions from admission decisions, at least on a first round, If that is your goal ROTC/NROTC is a very poor choice. It might be possible to get a waiver, but the purpose of NROTC is to graduate junior officers with bachelor degrees for immediate duty in a line capacity. As others have said if you want military help with med school there are other, better programs.
Hey, it's a trip down memory lane for a bunch of us old farts. <g> Steve
--
A new technothriller that asks the question: "Can a perfect prison contain perfect evil?" www.thepaxamsolution.com
dgray0 ...@yahoo.com
I bought a book (great book, for any other HS students) called "How to Really Get into the Ivy League and Other Highly Selective Universities" (I think). It was written by a guy who used to be chief admissions officer at Harvard College. In it, there's a list of credentials/awards that really stand out in the admissions process, and among them was ROTC. The fact that the college wouldn't have to give you any financial aid money wasn't the point; it was quite simply just a nationally recognized award recognizing academic excellence.
One of the points of the book is that they love nationally recognized awards.
jacklinthi ...@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum)
A member of the selection committee for Tufts, a school not in the Ivy category but still very desirable, said they do triage with two numbers: SAT and cl*** standing. Period. After they get through the whole list they look at the next level. I doubt if Harvard has to look below the first two numbers.
dgray0 ...@yahoo.com
Just found this on the internet...
http://amsa.army.mil/1Msmr/1999/v05_n01_Article2.htm It seems that: a) the mortality rate of Army guys is not necessarily higher than Navy guys, and b) the death rates of active duty servicemen are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the national rate. Am I interpreting this correctly? Any comments?
dgray0 ...@yahoo.com
I agree, I know someone who goes to Tufts and loves it. Anyway, I am fairly sure that, nowadays at least, SAT and cl*** standings are from the only factors considered. First, SAT scores are rapidly losing credibility (the UC schools don't even require them anymore), and with all the grade inflation and weird business soem schools do to graduate a better applicant pool, cl*** standing, too, has lost credibility.
These factors are VERY important, don't get me wrong, but the "trend" now is a large emphasis on SAT II (subject test)scores, acadmic curriculum and AP cl***es, extracurriculars and awards.
At least, that's the basic premise of this book, my main source of information.
Steven James Forsberg sjfor...@bayou.uh.edu
: Just found this on the internet...
: http://amsa.army.mil/1Msmr/1999/v05_n01_Article2.htm : It seems that: a) the mortality rate of Army guys is not necessarily : higher than Navy guys, and b) the death rates of active duty : servicemen are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the national rate. Am I During peacetime (or even lightweight wars), a lot of servicepeople are are living healthier than the national population. People on ships aren't drinking and driving, a lot of people overseas aren't drinking, the military actually emphasizes occupational safety much more than most private employers, etc. In addition, the military tends to be skewed towards younger healthier people and they've all got excellent healthcare.
regards,
-------------------------------------------------------
sjfor...@bayou.uh.edu
Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net
none except that comparing the death rate of young healthy selected volunteers to the nation as whole should produce a much lower death rate. Vince
jacklinthi ...@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum)
That was 1988 info I gave you and I agree the methods of getting around those criteria are legion. My point to the Tufts guy was my daughter was in a cl*** of 300, 100 of whom had 4.0 or higher grade points (AP) and/or those Presidential Awards for Excellence. Therefore the cl*** standing was not the same as in other schools. At that time her school (Yorktown) and one other (Langley) on the DC area were the desired academic schools, now Thomas Jefferson has taken the lead.
Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net
On the Virginia side of the Potomac river no question, but some people might read DC area to include Maryland But it is meaningless to compare High Schools with selective admissions with general intake schools. The problem of cl*** rank has always been there because of private schools.
I graduated 79th in a cl*** of 180 from Gonzaga in DC but 62 members of my cl*** received MD JD or PhD degrees. Selective public schools and schools which draw on upper socioeconomic areas often have a higher percentage of well prepared academically talented students. It is well known that all selective universities have systems for recording and ***essing the value of a GPA at a specific high school or school district. Vince Brannigan
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