anti-military activity on midwestern college campus

s ...@titan.com (USN ret)

Where: University of Notre Dame South Bend Indiana In an article in the 12 Oct 01 campus newspaper, The Observer, a student complains that the US Army ROTC program has had a number of its previously approved activities prohibited. What activities you ask? The forbidden activities include "marching, singing cadences and wearing camouflage uniforms, and utilizing training aids like rubber weapons as they offend and scare too many students and administrators." What is unbelievably appalling is that the current administrators fail to remember that the University owes its current existence to the fact that the Navy established a cadet officer training program there during the earliest stages of WWI, thus keeping the school from total financial ruin due to a lack of tuition paying students. ND has a very famous and beautiful on campus basilica. The church's stone arch entries through which church goers p*** sport this carved message "God, Country, Notre Dame." Perhaps in these current times, they need to be reminded of that phrase and the priorities it sets.
A copy of the article is appended below.
Please email the school to complain!
-------------------------------
Two decisions, one administration, Geoff Heiple cl*** of '01
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constantly students and alumni use this forum to complain about many things that, while they won't affect world peace, console victims of oppression or feed the hungry, are the issues that face the Notre Dame community ??” on campus and beyond. I could rage endlessly about the senseless ticket distribution system (football, U2, O'Neill SYRs), the terrible refereeing of girls' interhall flag football officials, the fact that The Observer can't ever get the crossword puzzle right or that student government is funnier than Befuddled and Bemused. Yet I've somehow managed to deal with these awful tribulations. However, two recent developments in the decisions of our morally conscious administration do cause me great distress.
First, witness the administration's punishment of the ROTC at Notre Dame. Since when was it un-hip to be patriotic, especially at a time when America desperately needs to show its true colors? On Sept. 29 the Army ROTC cadets participated in their routine training exercise, conducted at least once each semester since ROTC was founded. There was nothing out of the ordinary or different about that weekend's events from previous years ??” battle drills in the woods, some land navigation, team building exercises and leadership development.
This year the ROTC faculty, seeking to give their cadets an exceptional training opportunity, decided to liven-up the weekend by coordinating for our cadets to ride in Blackhawk Helicopters back to Notre Dame from their training site. These choppers were generously furnished by the Illinois National Guard. The cadets relished the opportunity to fly from LeMans Military Academy back to the field in front of Holy Cross College. At that point the cadets dismounted their choppers and formed up for a foot march back to Pasquerilla Center, the home of Notre Dame's ROTC programs.
The American flag and Battalion colors were uncased as the cadet battalion proudly marched across U.S. 31, down Dorr Road, around Holy Cross Drive and down Juniper Road, finally arriving at Pasquerilla Center. Notre Dame Security Police provided traffic control, which was greatly appreciated. As they crossed U.S. 31 dozens of motorists beeped their horns, waved to the cadets, shouted supportive words and showed their patriotism. Furthermore, during their march across campus, several people cheered, waved and took pictures of the marching Notre Dame students. Morale amongst the cadets was extremely high; truly these students exemplified "God, Country, Notre Dame." The high morale hit rock bottom when the battalion arrived back at its home. Notre Dame administrators had already called for a meeting with the ROTC commanders to discuss the offensive and unacceptable behavior displayed by the army cadets, specifically: marching, singing cadences and wearing camouflage ??” how atrocious!
As a result of that meeting ROTC cadets are no longer allowed to sing cadences during runs around the lakes. They are no longer allowed to wear camouflage at their training periods on the campus proper. Also, the cadets are forbidden to utilize training aids like rubber weapons as they offend and scare too many students and administrators.
Army cadets must train for the National Leadership Advanced Camp where they are evaluated and graded on their military development. As well, they train for their collegiate competition Ranger Challenge, in which they participate against Ranger Challenge teams from other universities.
In this competition cadets in 9 and 5 person teams must perform land navigation, rifle marksmanship and 10-K runs with full equipment and rope bridging. It is impossible to train properly for the run and the rope bridging without all necessary items ??” like one's camouflage uniform, rubber rifle and full load of equipment, as well as an area to train (like the spot on St. Mary's Lake near Carroll Hall which has been used since Ranger Challenge was created in 1987.) Sadly though, the cadets are not allowed to perform their routine training. Would someone really suggest that the football team practice without pads or artificial crowd noise, that the baseball team practice without gloves, that the band practice without instruments or that our student actors and actresses not be given a theater to perform? Of course not.
So why punish these Notre Dame student-athlete-leaders?
At this point I wish to take issue with the moral majority that is our dear administration. In the Oct. 8 Observer there is the article concerning Cooper Rego and the alleged rape that transpired in 1998.
Here is a person, maybe not formally prosecuted for rape, (as Notre Dame wouldn't dare allow such a spectacle to go outside the Dome) but who was punished as a result of some type of conclusive evidence to support the claim of Miss Pienovi. Yet this morally upstanding, patriotically-condemning administration of ours is seriously considering his return to campus, despite the ban against him.
"As an individual, security would ask him to leave, as a group that is something different." This said by the director of Public Relations Denny Moore, the only Notre Dame official who would comment on the impending episode. Yeah, good response ??”strength in numbers. I guess the ROTC programs just need more cadets to join.
I do not use this example to exploit the plight of Miss Pienovi.
However, it does serve to showcase the often-contradictory policies of our administration in both instances. Especially because ROTC bailed out Notre Dame during the great wars and Miss Pienovi graciously gave of herself to increase sexual ***ault awareness at Notre Dame.
The fact is this administration does an excellent job of living in its gl*** house while casting stones at others. This university has a host of issues to contend with, however, no one of any real substantial importance is in tune with any of them. Perhaps if Mr. Kirk weren't spending all his time in the Green Field on Saturday mornings ticketing tailgating students who aren't affecting anyone but themselves then maybe he'd have a better idea. The words "God, Country, Notre Dame" are engraved over a doorway at the Basilica. I now realize why those words do not hang over any door into the Golden Dome.

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

As in MONEY god country and Notre Dame? .OFCS Exactly how much boot licking does the military need to feel secure? Perhaps if they watch "the triumph of the will " a few times they might understand that like free speech and free press, academic freedom is one of the plllars of this society. If they want the benefits of officers educated in a free society they might understand its limits. I have many members of the military as students. If they want to get together and march and sing and wear whatever they are free to so just like anyone else. We just dont allow anyone to order them to do these things. But no students on campus is permitted weapons of rubber or any other kind.
We are the land of the free as well as the home of the brave Vince

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

Bob McKellar b...@coastcomp.com

Vince can be called many things ( and has been ) but I think "anti-military" is a bit of a stretch.
I don't believe the supply system carries an age waiver big enough to fit Vince.
--
Bob McKellar The List of Preserved US Military Aircraft http://www.coastcomp.com/av/pres/presusac.htm

Skelt ...@home.com (Peter Skelton)

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:46:27 GMT, Bob McKellar They'll take you at 53, if they want you. I think there may be some barrier at 54, I've been getting pre-birthday hints.
____ Peter Skelton

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

Too bad. Vince is deadly accurate--when it comes to sniping at the military, that is. I wonder why he did not serve earlier? Too good for such plebian service, I guess.
Brooks
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

George Shirley gsh...@bellsouth.net

Or hats big enough to fit his ego.
George

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

My parents were both Naval officers. And its very easy to stand up for academic freedom and the autonomy of universities when its not being threatened. It is under threat right now.
I have no problem with ROTC students They are fine students and devoted to their country.
fine no student is Depends on what the training is, and where it takes place.
Sticks and stones. Those who are comfortable at following orders can and should go into the military. It does not improve the military to accept those who do not. I do not.
Vince

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

they missed It didn't engage, it shot down the airbus. It imagined the threat no, their fear created the reason This is just crap. We were discussing whether the term combat has a unitary meaning.
Can you read? I see nothing wrong with students weighing uniforms . they do to my cl***.
Hey I think the V-22, the ALASKA and battleships ae a waste of time too.
Do you have the slightest idea of what an analyst does?
sticks and stones. Do you have to resort to personal insults? Does it make you feel better?
The united states needs an efficient effective military to carry out its national tasks. anyone who wraps stupid decisions, defective weapons, poor strategy or inadequate leadership in the flag is anti military Sheesh Vince

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

Ego is telling someone "I'm right you're wrong because I am who I am". Analysis is trying to point out the flaws in an argument. I try my best to stick to analysis as opposed to insults, abuse or questioning someone's motives. Feel free to point out when I fail to do so.
Vince (size 8)

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

Wearing the uniform on campus?! What are you smoking?
So you couldn't cut it and yet find it easy to snipe at those who do/did.
That's a real picture of honor, now isn't it? A nice, self-centered view of life...
Brooks
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

Read up what enage means in military terms.
False--they were engaging Boghammers at the time.
Now you are lying. You stated many times that these operations were non-combat; in fact, you actually alikened them to "target shooting". Claim you did not if you dare--I'll pull your old posts up if you want.
Then why are you defending ND's prohibition of BDU's?
In your case, he avoids service, then takes every oppotunity to belittle, snipe at, and redicule the actions of those who do. I would guess that there are quite a few analysts out there who would *run* at the mere thought of being tarred with your brush. An anaylist looks disp***ionately at systems or programs based upon their relative merits; you have hardly limited your views to that realm.
Just labeling you for what you are, Vince.
No Vince; the difference is that most people recommend changes to acheive positive results. They don't attack the CDR and crew of the Vincennes on a personal basis--they recognize that they made a bad decision, but under stress and under the premise that they thought *at that time* that the decision was merited. They also recognize that an event like that is a complex system; the Vincennes was not acting in a vacuum. Another government had to be in the process of conducting offensive naval surface actions in the region at the same time, and yet allow one of its commercial airliners to depart over the area of operations. And they don't make knee-jerk condemnations of ongoing campaigns because of errant munitions--they are not so unrealistic as to expect 100% accuracy in war, no matter how "precise" the weapons system.
And lastly, they don't try to cloak themselves with a belated "I'm doing this for the troops" stance when they have just posted elsewhere that they themselves could not contribute their own service because it would have required them to "accept orders" from others (like you don't have a superior where you work now?). So don't try to claim now that your comments have all been "for the greater good".
Brooks
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

what anti military stance?
I went through the lottery like everyone else.
what? My students are very free to wear uniforms Exactly what do you get out of personal abuse? does it make you feel better?
superior to the person you abuse? you you get points that you can redeem for trinkets? I am working on a report right now on the tactics that led to the deaths of 350 fine brave self sacrificing NYC fireman. I am critical of the tactics. I think these men were wasted. I'm sure there will be some truculent person who will want to know how I can possible criticize these fine brave men, or that I must be anti-fire department to point out the errors intactics, strategy or equipment Or that perhaps, since I am not a fireman myself I " couldn't cut it and yet find it easy to snipe at those who do/did.That's a real picture of honor, now isn't it? A nice, self-centered view of life..." I will shake my head the same way and go about my work. Some people can never understand.
Vince

"W. D. Allen Sr." balle...@home.com

"...the University owes its current existence to the fact that the Navy established a cadet officer training program there during the earliest stages of WWI, thus keeping the school from total financial ruin due to a lack of tuition paying students...." Notre Dame is just one more football factory [one that has been falling on its butt lately] Don't ever expect an ingrate to be grateful! Send your kids to a school that is not embarr***ed to be patriotically American!
WDA '53 end ...

Steven James Forsberg sjfor...@bayou.uh.edu

: In an article in the 12 Oct 01 campus newspaper, The Observer, a : student complains that the US Army ROTC program has had a number of : its previously approved activities prohibited. What activities you : ask? The forbidden activities include "marching, singing cadences and : wearing camouflage uniforms, and utilizing training aids like rubber : weapons as they offend and scare too many students and : administrators." I wouldn't be so quick to call *all* these listed decisions as "anti-military". I have some familiarity with ROTC programs and college campuses, and I can ***ure you that a lot of "military training" does indeed cause headaches (and worse) for the university. A university is not a training base, it is not designed for or used to "exercises" in the sense the military uses the term. Requests for all sorts of things are routinely turned down, and not just because the school is anti-military.
They may be instances of anti-military activity, but I have not found it rampant by any means.
For example, landing in a helicopter on university grounds. You can probably bet that the people at Risk Management yelled "you wanna do WHAT?" when they heard that. Unless you have a helo landing pad and experience at your school (probably not), something sounding as easy as landing a helo is a chore, at best, and a disaster at worst. When I was at NAVCAMS WestPac the "Helicopter Landing SOP" (available at the quarterdeck) was dozens of pages thick and called for all sorts of responses and mandatory professionals on duty. And that was a military base (albeit one that didn't hand helos, why it would be such a pain in the arse.) Even in the military, "There's a spot, set it down!" is not how it's down outside of designated areas.
Cadence and singing is often a noise issue. If you are teaching a 7 AM English section you don't appreciate 50 people running by your window screaming "I wanna be a recon ranger...". Likewise, my first inkling of a new ROTC PT instructor once was being awoke at 6 AM by 50 potential Marines doing PT besides the dormitory screaming "1 SIR, 2 SIR..". That didn't go over well with anyone. Situations vary, some programs have nice open spaces and no one cares. Some don't.
As for carrying replica weapons, you can guess what probably happens.
The local police getting calls of "men with guns" running through the neighborhood. Or the media getting calls of "The Military is taking over the city!". The police have no choice but to respond as though there really were a bunch of armed and dangerous college kids, etc. Here at UH, in my experience, the Army ROTC calls cadence, but in a moderate sound level, and does not yell or shout during PT unless they are off campus (on the Bayou or the park). I have never seen them carrying weapon replicas. I have *never* seen a helo, military or otherwise, land on campus. but I would hardly say the place is "anti-military". It really doesn't care as long as ROTC does not interfere with school.
regards,
----------------------------------------------------
sjfor...@bayou.uh.edu

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

I don't have testosterone deficiency syndrome. I don't think that the guy who wins the bar fight is the "better man" Im simply pointing out the fact that they missed.
It wasn't a military target. the U-boat didn't engage the Lusitania, it torpedoed the ship.
Which is why they shot down a civilian airliner on a scheduled flight. ?
No pure factual issue when you say at the time do you mean in the same minutes , hours , days or weeks?
You throw this around a lot to try to win arguments It might work in a bar. It means nothing to me Feel free. We were after all talking about the AC 130 You are the one who just expanded it to troops. .
if you think i said that the troops we lost were lost were not combat casualties, find the quote.
Because its a university with its own principles. . If you want to benefit from a university education you accept some the principles of the place.
Why do you need to engage in abuse? Does it give you stature in your community?
so you say. I am whatever I am. I feel no need to label you.
That's what I do.
I never suggested they were evil. they created a fantasy.
Its not belated. I have been studying errant campaigns, munitions decisions procurements and operations for 30 years. I am astonished by the persistence of those who feel that criticism is somehow unpatriotic etc. I avoid personal insults, no matter what the provocation. I respond to intellectual argument, no matter the source. I don't let insults upset me, since they tend to come form those without arguments.
You have made various claims about the Vincennes that indicate a lack of understanding of understanding of the timeline, and have repeatedly failed to understand the nuance of the argument about the term Combat. I have done my best to explain. you seem for whatever reason to want to make this some kind of personal manhood test where your insults or abuse are somehow valid if I don't respond to it. I don't and won't.
Vince

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

akoldgamer akoldga...@alaska.com

All yes.. Send your kids, as if they did not have a mind of their own... last time I checked 18yo are adults, free to choose their own course in life (if they had not already). Is this not what freedom is?
rm "W. D. Allen Sr." wrote:

Alan Lothian nob...@nowhere.com

What did Tom Lehrer say? "It takes a lot of courage to stand up in a crowded college auditorium and say the things that everyone else is against, like peace and freedom and brotherhood"?
--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water" Ibn Khaldun If you wish to email me, try alan dot lothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk

Michael P. Reed mpr...@chartermi.net

Pardon? When I was in AFROTC at the University of Michigan in the late 80's, we always wore our uniforms on campus on days we had ROTC cl***es. (That is only until it sunk in that the heavy jacket and tie make for uncomfortable circumstances during lectures in those small congested stuffy rooms buried in the basement with rattling pipes in the oldest buildings on campus that UofM always seemed to stick to me). Granted, we did have orders to refrain from wearing them to the local pubs and like establishments.
--
Regards, Michael P. Reed

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

You need to read the entire thread to understand my meaning; Notre Dame has chosen a wonderful time to tell its Army ROTC cadets that they can no longer wear their BDU's on campus, amongst other restrictions.
Brooks
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

"Paul J. Adam" n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk

Read up on the incident. The VINCENNES *created* an engagement (in order to get into gun range of the Boghammars it had to sprint for half an hour at flank speed, entering Iranian waters to do so).
The cruiser's own bridge video showed that the VINCENNES initiated the engagement, and the return fire from the Iranian boats fell well short.
VINCENNES then proceeded to ***ociate the wrong IFF with a target, plot the ICAO air lane in the wrong place, and mistakenly read "range" as "altitude". Reacting to all this, they proceeded to shoot down an Airbus (after twenty-two failed attempts to get missiles off the rails...) and kill 230 civilians.
It's not exactly a DS solution to the situation, is it? Which parts would you recommend to USN captains for future employment?
Like "find the problem and fix it". Saying "Everything's fine, there's no problem, it went to plan and they were only Iranians anyway" is not a "positive result".
I don't believe that Captain Rogers woke up one morning and thought "hey, I feel like m***acring some religious pilgrims".
But are you seriously telling me that the chain of errors, misjudgements, bad decisions and poor training that led to the destruction of Iran Air 655 is acceptable, or should be considered normal practice?
VINCENNES was an air-defence warship. If Big Mistake 3 had ever kicked off and the Soviets performed near their plans, she might well have found herself having to deal with simultaneous attacks by submarines (torpedo and cruise-missile) and missile-armed aircraft.
Does it not concern you at all that VINCENNES' ability to operate was apparently "overwhelmed" by a few Boghammars and an airliner? That her crew were demonstrably struggling to operate the ship's systems?
How the hell would she ever have handled her design mission?
The Persian Gulf is a crowded place. The US was there to secure freedom of navigation, it was explicitly not at war with Iran.
Many other USN ships, in many other incidents, faced similar or worse situations and managed to avoid killing large numbers of civilians. But thanks to VINCENNES, all most people really remember is one catastrophic screwup, and the unreported unglamorous competence of all those other ships and crews is swamped by the reporting of VINCENNES.
One notable incident during Praying Mantis (a year before the VINCENNES incident) had a US helicopter identify a "Sahand-cl*** frigate": a US warship was setting up a Harpoon attack and had the good sense to double-check the target. It turned out to be a Soviet Sovremenny-cl*** destroyer... chucking missiles at that could have been even more embarrasing than shooting down an Iranian airliner.
A question to you would be whether you feel that VINCENNES represented acceptable performance. If not, what might you improve?
--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill Paul J. Adam n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk

"Brooks" brooks...@127.0.0.1

Bull hockey. If the account I saw was correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), the sequence was as follows-- civilian tankers report harr***ment/attacks by Boghammers, followed by dispatch of Vincennes helo to check out reports.
Helo reports being fired on by Boghammers; Vincennes then goes to flank to engage. Now just *what* do you expect a ship, tasked with protection of tankers, to *do* in such a situation? Run away? Fact stands--the *Iranians* were conducting Boghammer opns aimed at interdicting oil transport, and the USN was tasked to protect the shipping lanes. What do you think the Bogs were doing out there, water skiing? Get real.
Brooks (in order
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----

Vince Brannigan vze2t...@verizon.net

They certainly were not attacking the Vincenens. You buzz combat warships With your helicopter. when they shoot back you go charging for them for example you are on the Boghammers here are your Rules of engagement each commanding officer's first responsibility was to the safety of his ship and crew. If he was to err, it was to be on the side of protecting his people. In this day and age of supersonic missiles, our warships cannot be expected to take the first shot before reacting. It's a heavy burden but ships' captains are expected to make forehanded judgments, and if they genuinely believe they are under threat, to act aggressively.
Testosterone goes up, situational awareness goes down. you want a fight so you interpret neutral events as threat Its called scenario fulfillment.
Vince

To Top

anti-military activity on midwestern college campus

Back to Army Rotc

Back to Home Page