third grade questions
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Sharon Fitzgerald safi...@attglobal.net
My twin girls recently switched from a DoD school to a college-prep type school here in Puerto Rico. Despite completely second grade with no deficiencies whatsoever, and despite testing into third grade on the entrance exam, the third grade at the new school was just too overwhelming.
How common are these things in third grades in the US: 1. changing cl***es for each subject 2. 2-3 hours of homework each nite. What you can't complete in cl*** becomes homework.
3. recycling of tests. They use what appears to be an excellent "canned" curriculum in some subjects that is supplied with unit exams.
I understand the teachers wanting to use the canned tests rather than writing new tests but you then don't let the kids keep the tests. As a result, kids with siblings or friends who recently took third grade have the EXACT TESTS.
4. ~10 text books, ~10 workbooks and ~15 notebooks to keep track of.
Also, my girls are 7.5 years old whereas all the other kids are at least 8.5. What age are most kids when they start third grade?
I red-shirted them. Actually it may not even be technically red-shirting because they are joining a group of kids their own age.
Whatever. They will have a second p*** at second grade to work on writing neatly and quickly (the latter being key to managing in third grade here). Unfortunately, the reading books are the same and the math curriculum doesn't go as far as the one at the DoD school but I think the deck was so stacked against them in third grade that I just feel like I had no choice.
The Principal tried to talk me into letting them stay in third and doing remedial work. I rejected this. I'd rather have my kids at the top of a second grade cl*** than struggling near the bottom of a third grade cl***. It just grates on me a little that if we were able to stay at the DoD school, they would be swimming along in third there.
But the most important thing I think is that school should be fun and challenging. Third grade at this new school was overwhelming and painful.
I'd be interested in any thoughts about this and my decision (for my next life time of course.. the dye is cast for this one.) sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)
hill ...@hillary.net (Hillary Israeli)
*How common are these things in third grades in the US: I don't know about "common." I can tell you what I experienced in US public school back in the 70s and 80s and what's going on right now in our district, though.
*1. changing cl***es for each subject This doesn't start til 6th grade at the earliest around here.
*2. 2-3 hours of homework each nite. What you can't complete in cl*** *becomes homework.
I'm not sure about this but it seems like a lot to me.
*3. recycling of tests. They use what appears to be an excellent *"canned" curriculum in some subjects that is supplied with unit exams.
*I understand the teachers wanting to use the canned tests rather than *writing new tests but you then don't let the kids keep the tests. As a *result, kids with siblings or friends who recently took third grade have *the EXACT TESTS.
I know this is common in high schools here, and that they do not let kids keep the tests. I am not sure about third grade.
*4. ~10 text books, ~10 workbooks and ~15 notebooks to keep track of.
No, this is more than in my experience.
*Also, my girls are 7.5 years old whereas all the other kids are at least *8.5. What age are most kids when they start third grade?
Hmm. I was 7.5 when I started 3rd grade but I was a year younger than everyone else (long story). The rules re: age of starting kindergarten have not changed since then around here.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net i...@hillary.net "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
"Sue" sburke148...@comcast.net
I am not sure what a DoD school is. And as far as third grade being scary, yes they start expecting more from the kids starting in third grade. Third grade is kind of a transitioning point, if they are not performing well, then it becomes evident in third grade. We started noticing my daughter having problems in math in third grade. I am sure that going back down to a second grade level for your twins, is probably best for them since their success rate will be higher and that will boost their self-esteem.
Our school starts the kids changing cl***es in third grade for math and social studies. Other than that, that is all.
We didn't have 2-3 hours of homework each night. It probably boiled down to about an hour a night. Some nights she didn't get any, but the norm was around an hour. If the twins are not completely their work in a timely fashion in cl***, then they will have more homework.
Our teachers are not recycling tests. From what I can see so far, they are making up their own tests. Sometimes they use a test out of a book, but they are in math. If the child can remember to save the tests, then wow they have a good memory. Tests come home here, I look at them and then they are thrown away. I would have never even have thought that the kids could save them and reuse them.
There were, I think the most was five books and a spiral notebook to write down homework ***ignments and notes to parents, but they all stay in their desks unless they have homework in that subject and then they will bring it home. The spiral notebook came home everyday, as I said there were notes in there from the teacher and things the kids had to keep up with.
The average age for third grade is eight years old. My daughter is a year older than everyone else because we started her at six for kindergarten.
--
Sue mom to three girls
Banty Banty_mem...@newsguy.com
Uncommon.
This was the case in our school district. Of course, length of time to complete homework varies with the kid. My impression was, though, that the amount of time to complete was on average underestimated.
Depends on the teacher. Third grade isn't a stage where test results are that important, and in my district there weren't even letter grades. I haven't heard of third graders even getting together to study for tests. So it is less important to vary tests to prevent cheating than it is in high school, for example.
That seems a little much. My main complaint was that my son would have a little of everything to do, and would have to carry three or four books around every day in his backpack. Eight is a little young to wrench your back, y'know.
There has been a trend to red-shirting kids, especially boys. In an effort to give each red-shirted kid an advantage by being older than most of the cl***.
As you've noticed, it's a strategy that defeats itself when it becomes widespread.
You had them repeat second grade although they had mastered the material? That may turn out to be a bad decision. You don't just hold them back for second grade - they're held back all through their public school career. Boredom sets in, which is bad, and boredom + being an older teen still sitting in a high school cl*** can be a really bad thing. Can you reconsider?
My son was recommended to be retained in second grade for "maturity", not academic, reasons. He has an October birthday. I refused and had him move on to third grade. He was not at the bottom of third grade cl*** - pretty much in the middle. In fourth grade, he was average in the language arts subjects that supposedly were also of some concern, and well above average where he is strong.
They won't necesarily be at the top of the cl*** if they've had the material before. Indeed, they may flag due to boredom and frustration with being with younger cl***mates. And why is it necessary to be at the top anyway - schooling is not a race.
Already? It's August.
It is probably early enough to recast the *die* for this one. I sense that you have made a decision with long-range consequences due to nervousness about a short-term situation. Contact the principal.
Banty
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
At my kids' school they have tracking for math and reading so starting in first grade, most kids have up to three different teachers (not including gym, art, music, etc.).
The rule at our school is 10 minutes/night/grade.
For some kids, it turns out to be more than that. For the kids in the center-based GT program, they often have more than that. I would think 2-3 hours would be quite unusual.
Haven't seen this.
That seems more than is common here.
Here, kids start kindergarten if they've turned 5yo by either 9/1 or 9/30 (I forget which). So, the youngest kids in third grade will have just turned 8. Kids who started kindergarten a year later may start at 9.
I think it's good for kids to be challenged, but it sounds to me like this situation went far beyond that and set up a significant possibility that your girls wouldn't succeed well. Given that your girls are younger than the average third grader, I think it would especially problematic to put them in what seems to be a rather competitive environment when they're significantly younger than the other kids. Based on what you've said here, I think you probably made the wiser choice.
Best wishes, Ericka
"Alena Carroll" acarr...@nyc.rr.com
This depends on the state. New York has a December cutoff, so my daughter will only be 4 when starting kindergarten (and 10 months). This bothers DH, but I think mostly for sports-related reasons. He insists number two has to be born in winter or early spring. I was one of the youngest kids in cl*** and did fine. But if we stay in NYC and she has to take ERB to test into one of the "acceptable" public school programs, I wonder if her younger age will be a handicap. Well, I guess we'll see when we get there. I can see advantages and disadvantages either way.
Alena Alena
Doulamom priv...@nomail.com
I homeschool so all the previous questions I really can't answer. My daughter was 8y3mo when she started "3rd grade" My 2nd child will be 3 weeks shy of 8 and my third child will be 3 months shy of 9th when he gets to that point.
My son, going into third grade, cannot write very quickly either, FWIW.
wmars ...@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden)
10 minutes per grade is the goal, so 30 minutes of homework. My son would drag that out to well over an hour by whining for 45 minutes.
I don't know what to tell you about having to make up what wasn't done in cl***. That sounds like a cl***room management issue. I'd show up to see what's going on there.
I have no idea and this wouldn't be an issue, as the tests are used as diagnostic tools to see if the kid mastered the material. We use the tests to figure out what to teach next, not as part of the body of work we keep.
At home? Too much. The kids have a 3 ring binder that is 2 inches thick with zippered sides. We have 8 partitions in the binder and a stack of wide rule binder paper. They carry the binder back and forth as well as photocopies of work but rarely any books.
The youngest would be 8. A 7.5 year old would be a 2nd grader here.
FWIW, I think you were responding to your daughters' needs appropriately, and I wouldn't have any regrets if I were you. It doesn't really matter WHY third grade wasn't working for them. It wasn't, you changed something, all is well.
My kids are going into 6th and 4th grades and I know for a fact that we have to stay on top of what goes on in the cl***room all through elementary school!
-- Wendy, Mummy to DD(11) DS(9) and DS(3)
hschin ...@aol.com (H Schinske)
Frankly the school sounds pretty weird all the way around. I wouldn't be happy about them doing this stuff next year either -- don't think their age has that much to do with it. I would also be worried that they're going to think they're dumb that they can't adapt to the third grade. I would explain *really* carefully that it is NOTHING to do with them or their brains, it has to do with how the school is run and that different schools aren't like this, and that *right now* the best place for them in *this* school happens to be second grade, that's all.
My daughters are just turned eight and going into third grade (they'll be among the youngest, as the cutoff is eight by Sept. 1). One by test scores is ready for fifth-grade curriculum (the other is also ahead in some respects but not as much), but she couldn't possibly handle the responsibilities you describe, and I frankly wouldn't expect either of them to for *several* more years, some of that stuff not until high school. Neither is particularly immature or irresponsible for their age.
--Helen
"Cathy Kearns" cathy_kea...@yahoo.com
In general at our school kids only change teachers and places for art, music, and PE though in 4th grade they may also change cl***rooms for math. However, there are kids pulled out for various things.
ESL students have special english cl***es at set times several times a week. Kids are pulled out for Speech therapy. I believe there are also other reasons kids may be pulled out every week, but I'm not sure what.
Ours is more of the 30 minute a night variety, with a cut-off of 45 minutes, but I have heard at the private schools around here and some public schools where the parents are active and believe more homework is better, 2-3 hours a night is not unusual. We do have rule about what you can't complete in cl*** becomes homework, and for some kids that really balloons their homework times up. These are kids that have trouble sitting down and concentrating in cl***, and the thought is they might have less distractions at home. I'd guess only one or two kids per cl***room are bringing home cl*** work to finish on a daily basis. If its not a cl***room distraction problem then I'm not sure they will be finishing at home within the 45 minute range either.
There are a few, maybe three or four tests a year in each subject that is used to track progress against kids in all the grade 3 cl***rooms.
It is used by the school to ensure the individual teachers are on track, but it is also used to evaluate the child on various specific areas. I believe these same tests are used every year.
I'd guess throughout the year my daughter goes through 10 workbooks and 10 different text books, though most of them are reading books.
But at any one time she has more like 3 or 4 text books and their 3 or 4 accompanying work books. When they finish a unit the first ones are collected and they get the next ones.
Here the cutoff is December 2nd, so to be precise the youngest third grader could be 7.75 at the beginning of the school year. In reality about half the fall birthday kids start a year later, so about 87% of the kids start third grade at age 8+.
If you have the luxury of a year to catch up on age I don't see a problem with letting them take 2nd grade again. Though the school may be teaching the same things, it sounds like they teach them in different ways, and your girls can learn the system this year, and be able to concentrate on the subjects next year.
Cathy
"lisa " birdmadg...@prodigy.net
In article <3D6369F4.D2DF0...@attglobal.net>, Sharon Fitzgerald My son was in third grade last year. He changed cl***es. He had a homeroom where he went first thing in the morning. He had different teachers for English and math, his homeroom teacher for reading and another teacher for both science/health and social studies.
Holy cow. That's a lot of homework. DS had to read one book (not a huge one) every night. Maybe twice a week he'd have to do a couple a pages from a workbook. And he had science/history projects here and there.
That doesn't sound good.
Wow! DS had four or five textbooks and three workbooks. He also had two spiral notebooks and a folder to keep up with.
I think 8. My son was 9, but he also took second grade twice.
We held DS back in second grade. We've been really criticized about it from some people, but it was the right thing to do. He went from screaming, crying and throwing up at school and while doing homework to happily going to school and making the honor roll. Don't feel bad. Only you can know what's best for your children.
Lisa Mom to 3
LFortier the_forti...@mindspring.com
I have a 4th grader who had a great year as a 3rd grader last year. My comments interspersed.
Not here. In 3rd grade my dd had 2 teachers, one for language/social studies and the other for math/science. The cl***es switched as a group only 1 or 2x per day.
No. It was more homework than she had had before (especially on nights when spelling sentences were ***igned), but never more than 1 hour that I can remember.
Not as far as I now, but I'm not actually sure.
Several textbooks and workbooks that generally stayed in the room. Our school is big on using trappers to organize life for 3rd to 5th graders, so everything stays in there and we don't have to deal with scads of spiral notebooks.
Most are 8 or more. We have a fall cutoff and people here tend to redshirt kindergarten frequently, so some were upwards of 9. My dd is young, so she was about 2 months shy of her 8th birthday when school started last year.
Sounds like you made a good decision. Your new school sounds extremely tough and like it's stacked toward older than grade level kids.
Lesley
Sharon Fitzgerald safi...@attglobal.net
Wow. Me too. I was a January baby in NYC where the cutoff was December. They let me slip ahead with the previous cl*** because I was only one month younger.
sharon
naomilyn ...@aol.comNOSPAM (Naomi Pardue)
I can't speak for all schools, but...
At Shaina's school, she went to another room for math and for reading, and they had separate teachers for art, music and phys ed. In general, however, they stayed in one cl***room.
That does sound excessive. In third grade Shaina probably averaged 30 minutes/night, with occ***ionally a longer ***ignment or a shorter one.
Do they not have desks or cubbies? Kids tend to have a lot of books, but most of them stay in the desk or locker, so it isn't much trouble to keep track of them.
That does sound a bit young. In Indiana, a child has to be 5 to start kindergarten, so 7 .5's would be mostly, in second grade. Other states and districts allow kids to start kindergarten if they will turn 5 sometime during the school year, so there may be a few older 7's in 3rd grade.
Can they work ahead of grade level in reading and math? Most schools I am familiar with have some sort of advanced or gifted programs for kids who are ahead of grade level. (Shaina has always done reading and math one grade up.) Naomi (either remove spamblock or change address to npar...@indiana.edu to e-mail reply.)
jkknfoll ...@cs.comfakeaddy (Kari)
Wow. That seems so young to be starting 3rd grade! My daughter will be 7 in Dec and she is going into 1st grade (due to a late birthday but still....) As far as everything else, grade 3 here also changes cl***rooms. In fact, all grades do. Even Kindergarten does (to an extent, for reading, math and computers) I have heard that by 3rd grade, there will be 3 hrs of homework a night. Same principle, what doesn't get finished comes home with you. But I've heard the # grade corresponds with how many hours of homework a night... i.e. First graders will have 1 hour, 2nd grade will have 2 hours...up to 3rd grade at which it will stay about 3 hours a night until middle school. I dont even want to know how much they will have after that! I dont remember having that much homework even in high school!!
Kari mom to Kaylie (6) and Noah (3) see our family at http://photos.yahoo.com/karidmbfan
Sharon Fitzgerald safi...@attglobal.net
Actually, the second grade here has its challenges enough ... we are 3 days into the second grade and I ***ure you they are not bored. They still are looking at 45 minutes - hour of homework each nite. They are NOT BORED. If we return to the states this fall, if they are miles ahead of the second grade where we land, I'll try to jump they back up to third. But I doubt it... their still too young.
Boredom and frustration are simply not an issue. Their heads are swimming with being in a new school with new ropes (that all the other kids already know).
In re being at the top of the cl***, I believe it starts now. The benefits are obvious when competing for prized slots in college.
Yes schools start in mid August here in Puerto Rico.
Mary_Gor ...@tvo.org (Mary Gordon)
I'm the mom of an 8.5 year old going into 3rd grade in Toronto. He actually should be going into grade 4 - he is a Christmas baby, and here the cutoff is Dec 31, so he had to start grade 1 when he was 5 (turning 6 by December) - and he was an extremely young 5 year old (more like 5 going on 4 in terms of maturity). He was struggling in 1st grade, so we arranged extra help for him, and also had him repeat the year, so he actually got to Grade 2 ready to rock and roll.
I personally think that kids need time to be kids. Growing and developing and learning isn't just about book learning - and 2-3 hours worth of homework per night is WAY too much for a 7 or 8 year old.
They need time for other activities and play. I think what you are describing would be extremely hard on many children of that age - just too much stress and pressure. It certainly would make many kids HATE school, be depressed, unhappy, turned off etc.
My son has NDL, and although he is an extremely bright and verbal kid, book work is not the way he learns best - he is a very physical guy, and has lousy fine coordination and some perceptual issues. Making him write page after page accomplishes next to nothing in terms of learning for him - but certainly makes him miserable and pits him against us, as we try and get him to sit still and stay focussed on the work. Hardly a positive home environment, encouraging his curiosity and interest in mastering new skills. I think a kid that age should have no more than an hour's work MAXIMUM, and there should be a mix of activities so as to accomodate different learning modes - i.e.
not 10 pages of math drill.
At our local public school, they also stay put in one room, and have their own desk, so the only thing that has to come home is their spelling or math book, not a mountain of stuff.
Mary G.
Rosalie B. gmbeas...@mindspring.com
Not common IME. It sounds like the teachers are specialists while most primary teachers have to be generalists because the school can't afford to pay that many teachers in order to have specialists. Probably due to the college-prep thing. I am ***uming this is some kind of private school?
Pretty common for what you can't complete in cl*** to be homework. The question is why she is not completing it in cl***. Maybe it is due to the problem with working neatly referred to below - neatness taking more time or the teacher rejecting the work because it wasn't neat enough.
Tests are often recycled. There is a whole essay that can be written on tests. It does seem a little unfair that some kids have the test and some do not.
<snip> grandma Rosalie
Rosalie B. gmbeas...@mindspring.com
I think you have a distorted view of a) competition for college, and b) what constitutes a 'prized' slot. I don't think it starts now. Now is the time for mastery of the material - not for getting super grades and not for learning to write fast and neatly.
That's not what she meant. She meant it has only been at the most a week or two - and they were already overwhelmed.
I think you've over-reacted. I think the original overwhelmed stuff was more because it was a new school with a whole new system.
Ditto grandma Rosalie
Rosalie B. gmbeas...@mindspring.com
Yes, if they are fooling around, or if the teacher is rejecting work because it is not neat or something (or if they would prefer to do it at home), then they will have more to do. (Are they in the same cl*** BTW -
that might also have something to do with whether they finish in a timely manner or not.) grandma Rosalie
"Donna Metler" nospam_dmmet...@bellsouth.net
My school starts having paired teachers, where one teacher teaches Language arts (reading, grammar, spelling, etc) and the other teaches math, science and social studies, at 2nd grade. The teachers trade cl***es for half the day.
At 4th, 5th, and 6th grade we have three teachers per grade. One teaches Language arts, one math, and one science and social studies, and the students rotate.
Most teachers aim for 10-15 minutes per cl***, plus 20-30 minutes of reading. However, if a child can complete the work in cl*** and doesn't make effort to do so, the work may become homework. That's the only way students would get 2-3 hours of homework.
We're required to use the book tests, but there are three forms, so the test won't be used more often than once every three years. Many books now come with test banks, so you can get a "new" test which is made up of the questions just by hitting the right key on the computer.
Math, reading, spelling, English (grammar), science, social studies, possibly an atlas. We don't generally have students take home texts in science, social studies or English-we only have one set of the books for all two or three cl***es. Each student has a workbook or a folder, though.
In 4th grade and up, students have a recorder (musical instrument) and a recorder book to bring one day a week, and some students have a choir folder starting in 2nd grade, if they elect to do Jr. Choir. Students in 5th and 6th who elect band have a band instrument and a band folder/book as well.
I can't imagine needing a separate notebook for each subject. Usually our kids have one binder per cl***room they visit, each color coded, with dividers for the subjects. They also usually have a homework journal which has both paper to record ***ignments and pockets for worksheets.
Around age 8, with the kids ranging from about 7.5-9, depending on birthdate and whether their parents chose to start late. School enrollment/homeschool registration isn't required until age 7, and many parents don't start their boys until age 6 because of maturity issues and future sports possibilities (sigh). I have one 10 yr old in 3rd this year, because his parents wanted him to have an advantage in football. The result is that he is at least a foot bigger than the other 3rd graders, and many of the other kids think he has repeated a grade, which doesn't give the desired effect.
LFortier the_forti...@mindspring.com
Heavens, I sincerely hope not, unless it's a high pressure private school. The general rule is 10 minutes per grade level, which gets a bit longer by 3rd grade but not to that extent. There's no way my first grader is capable of dealing with an hour of homework.
Lesley I have heard that by 3rd grade, there will be 3 hrs of homework a night. Same
Sharon Fitzgerald safi...@attglobal.net
Department of Defense. (military base school)
Sharon Fitzgerald safi...@attglobal.net
They were not in the same cl*** in third grade but are now in the same second grade cl***. It is not my preference to have them in the same cl*** but I took what I could get... there were no open slots.
sharon
Sharon Fitzgerald safi...@attglobal.net
(sigh of relief... ) Thank you Ericka. All my instincts were than it would be a struggle all year that might sour them forever on school.
Tonite's homework was such fun... they are required to take Spanish and the three of us are learning together, taking turns speaking. I'll bet we spent 30 minutes but it flew by. This contrasts with last week where each girl would cry at least once during the ~3 hours of homework/cl***work. We had to rush thru the Spanish just to finish and have time to eat dinner, shower, and brush our teeth! I was even considering having them drop Spanish last week in favor of remedial work in reading. Its the right choice.
sharon mama de savannah y willow (siete anos)
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