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"Onlooker" s...@spam.spam
Many governments including england refuse to discipline their kids ( or criminals ), hence we have a society that knows no limits and only gets more "undisciplined" Kids run rampant, Crime is increasing, LAWLESSNESS abounds Pr 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Pr 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Pr 23:14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
Pr 29:15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.
Isa 10:5 "Woe to the ***yrian , the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! ( Islamic terrorism ) 2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 2Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, discipline is not pleasent ( heb 12 ) Adam and Eve got death but through Christ we have life society refuses to discipline, hence Islamic terrorists will discipline society, the end cometh
"Steve\(UK\)" n...@homecomptr.freeserve.co.uk
"Midjis" < @ . > wrote in message ...
Thank goodness. I was beginning to worry I was the only one who thought children had far to much power.
I think this problem is just a manifestation on a more rudimentary problem-the one you pointed out-human rights. The more I think about the more I realise that almost all of today's problems in England are a result of people believing they have a right to be happy ALL of the time.
For example Crime Remember the two teenagers who mutilated a three year old child? Well, actually, they didn't just mutilate him, they tortured him before they cut his body into chunks-what do they get? Well...they have the right to anonymity. They get holidays every year at the expense of the tax payer.
They get a new life, new homes, protection-anything. At the end of the day they did something heinous to a human being and because they have "rights" they are protected from actually paying their debt back to society. Why?
Because they are human and deserve the same right to happiness as everyone else.
Health System The health system is buckling under the pressure of a nation abusing the system. Why? Because everyone has the right to good health. They get a cold?
They go the doctor and get something done. They don't like their face? Why not get a new one on the national health system. After all, its their human right to be happy!
Failing Welfare State The welfare state is abused by those who believe they have a god given right to anything they want. Why should they work? They live in a society that tells them they don't have to. They have a right to be happy all the time!
Working would make them unhappy.
Bad Parents There is an increasing amount of young parents who couldn't give a toss about their kids. Why? Guess what-they have the right to be happy. They enjoy going out on a weekend end getting hammered. Their children are infringing on this right. So they give them a packet of crisps, a PlayStation and a house to run riot in. Why should they stop their lives for some stupid child?
Thugs on the street Now this is rights gone crazy. There are so many scally thugs on the streets nowadays because ego's have shot through the roof due to people having an over inflated belief that they have a right to express and enforce their own opinion. This goes so far now that a scum bag will physically subdue a person if they disagree with the perpetrators opinions.
Children Last but not least I have to say bring children into this. The original poster pointed this out quite well. We have a belief as a society that all children should lead a perfectly happy life. Every child has a right to be happy all the time. We mustn't upset them! Guess what? This leads to children having huge ego's. They grow into teenagers who have huge egos who grow into adults with huge ego's. Those adults can't function in society properly and the fabric of society starts to fray at the edges.
At the end of the day nobody has a right to be happy all the time. We live in a world of different people. Like it or not no one person has the right answer. In the grand scheme of things there is NO answer. Yours is just an opinion-nothing more. It's about time we realised this and started enforcing it at a basic level-with children.
I agree that the rules on smacking are there for a good reason-some parents take it too far and use kids as punch bags. But that is extreme cases. Some children need to be smacked. I never needed it, but my other siblings did. I always responded to a stern voice, but other siblings didn't.
I think it's also important to realise that we are still part of nature. We might live in air conditioned sectioned off buildings, but fundamentally we come from a system where bad things sting us. This is how we learn. Nasty animals scare us with loud roars. We get stung by a bee then we don't grab one. We get a smack from a parent that hurts, then we don't do what it was we were doing.
Its a bit rubbish but at the end of the day it's hard coded into us to react best to negative reinforcement. The idea of "everyone has the right to live in peace and harmony" goes against this.
Steve
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
In the centuries since the above was written society has learned that violence begets violence.
A child raised with physical punishment learns that that is the appropriate way to discipline others - and those others can include elderly parents, children, and even a spouse.
Disciplining a child can be done without resorting to a "rod", belt, razor strop, hairbrush, or even the hand. It requires a mature adult to do so -
and a modicum of patience, but one does raise a child who is a tribute to good parenting, who is not a spouse abuser, who is not subject to road rage, who doesn't resort to fists to solve problems or arguments, who is not a bully, and one who raises his/her own children the same way.
One swat in the heat of fear when the child has placed itself in danger is not abuse - but to use physical punishment as a "normal" method of punishment is sick on the part of the adult, damaging to the child, is definitely teaching the wrong lesson, and is abuse. An abused child grows to be an abusive adult.....maybe physically abusive to others, maybe emotionally and/or psychologically. Some children are strong enough to weather physical abuse and grow to be healthy adults - I would rather not take the chance that the child is not one of the "strong ones".
Be careful what you sow as you may find yourself on the receiving end of the harvest.
Pangur
"Steve\(UK\)" n...@homecomptr.freeserve.co.uk
So how do you stop a child doing whatever it likes? You can't physically punish it because that's abuse.
So what about verbally punish it? Is that ok?
If not then the only other option is to not punish AT ALL! Maybe we should sit our children down and camly explain to them what they are doing, why it is innapropriate and how they should act in the future. Is this the correct way to deal with a child?
tadap ...@aol.com (Tadapope)
Feed them whole milk and club crackers and tell them to NEVER BEG!
Tangents are infinite in all of nature in all 21 universes constantly and at random.
Oh Joy & Lysergically Yours!
Tom The Psychedelick Pope Patron Saint of the Internet Saint Isadore of Laytonville http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/me/
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
*smile* And violence can solve a problem -
permanently. *bang, bang*. Problem solved.
I think it would be helpful to define terms here.
To discipline a child is to TEACH it that something is wrong or harmful; to punish is to hurt and no lesson learned.
We are talking about different ends of a continuum I think. You are describing a situation where restraint, control, and regret were present. I also made the caveat that a swat following danger was acceptable. By following the p;physical with explanation (teaching) your parents were using discipline - although I still feel the physical was not necessary - a time-out or loss of privilege would have worked as well.
I am talking about the other end of the continuum where physical punishment is accompanied by anger, no control, and no restraint. Where the punishment goes far beyond what was needed to rectify a situation.
I was trying to advocate the middle ground where time-outs, removal of favorite things, etc. are used instead of corporal punishment. in the majority of situations.
Animals are taught a wide variety of behaviors through positive reward as trainers have learned that physical punishment is less effective - and can result in the tiger turning around and biting you. Children can be taught just as effectively a wide wide variety of behaviors - and ones to avoid
- through positive reinforcement and discipline which is non-physical.
Agreed - but the control need not be physical.....see above I guess I was flashing back to my own childhood -
and the punishment (NOT discipline) I received.
The scars have made me a p***ionate proponent of discipline as opposed to punishment.
I learned little from the physical punishment except fear and anger. My punishments were not followed by explanations.
An example: I was one of kids who wasn't much of eater. We know that this is okay - kids won't starve with this behavior and they do grow out of it. I had my head bounced off the kitchen wall next to my chair quite a few times, my face mashed into the mashed potatoes, whippings for throwing bits of food from my plate out the window for the dog to eat, and numerous times was forced to eat "everything on that plate" through threats -
until I would throw up in my plate which resulted in punishment - another beating.
I learned to eat all right - and to this day I can't - literally can't - leave anything on my plate....hungry or not. When offered food I have a very very difficult time refusing as the little child inside still fears a beating.
We are speaking of very very different parents and childhood experiences. However, despite all, I still advocate discipline - not punishment. Too many people just simply don't have the maturity and control -imho- to use physical punishment.
I think working at the DV center also makes me an advocate of non-violence.
I believe still discipline should be used - not physical punishment.
I do think that very few parents have distinguished between discipline and punishment and so have thrown both out. They hear physical punishment is wrong (and I think it is), don't know they can discipline without being physical and so throw up their hands and the kids are growing up as you have noted. Also, being a parent is much hard work - probably the hardest job there is - and our many single mothers (the ones who get pregnant and are not married or even in a committed relationship) just don't have the resources as a single parent to discipline.
We agree to a point - parents are not doing the job. I think they need to be taught how to teach their kids - and I still think corporal punishment doesn't do that job.
Pangur
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
One uses discipline....not punishment. Discipline teaches a child - and can be done the same way animals are trained - using positive rewards and removal of privileges. I have a pamphlet I distribute as a part of my DV program. It teaches parents in clear simple language how to discipline their children - how to educate them as to desired behaviors and why other behaviors are wrong. This teaching is reinforced with positive rewards (verbal and physical) and negative behavior is met with time-outs and removal of privileges (dessert is a privilege - not a right :-) ) One can avoid some problems by giving kids a choice: "You may play with your water pistol in the bathtub or out in the yard. The living room is not a choice." The child has a choice - the child learns that the living room is not appropriate -
and no one is angry (adult)or crying (child).
Another example: The child has tracked mud onto the kitchen floor. What should the response be by the adult? "I see you tracked mud in. Here is a sponge (paper towel -whatever) to clean it up." Lessons learned? Make a mess - and tracking in mud is a mess - and you clean it up. Actions are followed by consequences.
OR - parent yells and scream and calls the child names or even hits it. Lessons learned? If someone does something you don't like, yell, scream insult, and/or hit them.
Which lesson would you want your child to learn?
Pangur
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
When discipline is used - the child IS punished -
just not physically.
But we are talking children - your argument would fit an adult - but not a child. Removal of a favorite toy, or a special privilege, or a time-out IS punishment to a child...again just not physical. You are describing children as if they little adults who are going to argue like District Attorneys. We are talking kids - to whom the loss of a favorite toy for a day or week is a major punishment - and something they won't forget every day they can't have the toy. The physical punishment is over - and forgotten.
I am speaking in general terms - I don't know you or your parents. I merely am stating that physical punishment is not necessary when perfectly good alternative methods are usable and which work!
...
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
Okay - first, you take a time out. If you still don't want to clean the floor, you will not (fill in with loss of a toy or privilege - one which is VERY important to the child and one which he or she definitely does NOT want to lose).
Pangur
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
And the loss of the (toy or privilege) is put in place. The mud stays on the floor. When the child cleans it ( and a child will), then a discussion is held of responsibility....and the toy/privilege is returned - the next week.
Pangur - remember, Midjis, this is a child whose concept of time is much different than an adult's and who wants that toy/privilege as an adult wants
- well, - whatever. :-)
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
I am against hitting, slapping, shaking, swatting, smacking, etc. to force a child to do or not do something. You would not slap an employee who screwed up. You would not smack an McD's employee who screwed up your order.
Why should a child not be treated the same as you treat other people? You might use harsh words, you might complain to the manager - but you WOULD NOT use physical punishment on those people. It is not acceptable! Why should it therefore be acceptable to physically punish a child?
I am a non-violent person; I firmly believe that physical slapping, shaking, smacking, and so on is WRONG. No one has the right to harm another -
except in self-defense or war. If parents learned and used the non-physical means of discipline we would have a less violent society and world.
Using force to compel another person - unless that person is a danger to him/herself or others is just not acceptable.
However, I think more than ONE swat on the behind in the heat of emotion when a child has been in real danger is just barely acceptable - I would prefer no swatting at all - but I know that a parent's fear/terror will result in that swat.
Physical punishment teaches the wrong message. Do as I say or suffer the physical pain. A child can and usually does learn that hitting is "okay".
On the playground another child has the swing -
hit that child and I will get the swing.....or I will be in a playground fight if we have both learned that hitting is "okay". The child grows up and get in a violent argument with the partner
- a slap can become a part of the argument.
Discipline - which has several methods to use - is non-violent.
I am very much in favor of a non-violent society.
But thanks for the discussion. It did give me a chance to reach out to parents who might feel that hitting their kids just isn't right or something they want to do.....there is a better way.
Pangur
who w...@where.com
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:47:05 GMT, Pangur Ban <Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org> Coughed, cleared the throat, stepped onto the soap box and shouted loudly: Following your logic through makes me ask the following questions: Why do our police carry guns?
If we humans are so reasonable, shouldn't the authorities simply reason with us?
What do we do when someone is past being reasoned with?
_____________ HooOooRooOoo _____________
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
For self-defense - also the police are not dealing with children - and when they are they do not generally shoot them.
But we are not because very very few of us have been raised in a non-violent home (using discipline not physical punishment). That said -
most authorities do not use physical force to make us pay taxes, vote, attend school, go to work, etc. When is the last time you had a mayor walking around town enforcing the laws - or just enforcing his beliefs - with a gun?
What employer is carrying around a switch to make his mechanics repair cars faster - or more carefully?
What president last used the armed forces to make citizens follow the government's decision (and I don't want to get in a Civil War debate! LOL)?
Well, the original discussion was how to raise children - with physical punishment or discipline.
Are you referring to a child or an adult? If a child, you pick it up, carry it into the bathroom, and stick it in a cold shower. Stops a temper tantrum purty darn quick.
If an adult, I think calling the police would be the best recourse. They are trained to subdue without undue harm adults who are past being reasoned with.
Pangur
Pangur Ban Pangur-...@SatisHouse.org
I think you are correct - my own background has made me very sensitive to physical punishment. I know I am at the far end of the continuum.
I still think that non-violent methods of discipline is more appropriate for raising children.
You have had, obviously, very good parents -
thoughtful and intelligent ones. They have raised a child who is the same. However, the majority of parents are NOT like yours. They hit their kids to control behavior and do not give calm and rational explanations afterward.
I have no hopes for a non-violent society - but I think society could be improved if more parents followed non-violent discipline.
Pangur - pretty depressed this morning by community events this week. Violence seems to be everywhere and there is no hope for anything but more violence.
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