More Than A Discipline Problem
Related Topics
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
My son Cam is 3 1/2 now and Ive written for advice before about his high strung behavior and the trouble others have had when they babysat him.
It is to the point now where I am ready to go full speed ahead to find out what the hell is wrong with him. I dont mean to sound so harsh about my own child but I seriously have never seen anything like this in my whole life. He is the middle of 3 boys and the other 2 arent even close to being as obsessive as him. I am going to do the allergy testing and contact a shrink because I just dont know what else to do.
We have been consistent in discipline and nothing works. Here are some things that he does...
1. Will cry uncontrollably for more than 1/2 an hour because his coat isnt zipped to where he wants it or if his sock is twisted in such a small way that any normal person wouldnt notice. 2. Will run circles around the inside of the house for an hour straight. 3. Get into things and draw on walls no matter how many times we time-out him and hide the crayons. Even though we give him paper and other things to draw on.
4. Places his blankets in perfect squares before being able to lay down. 5. Has serious issues with wearing clothes or coats no matter where we go. I was walking out of Walmart and it was snowing and he refuses to put his coat on and I forced his arms in and carried him to the car and he was so out of control that he wouldnt get in his car seat so than I had to force him in that which took a half an hour with people actually stopping to see if I was hurting him. He cried 20 minutes out of control the whole way home. This is not just spoiled, or a high spirited child. I truly believe he cannot help these things. Its as if he is totally OCD and Im not sure what to do. Ive had people tell me Im a bad mother, spank him(did, doesnt work any better) put him on meds, he has ADD you name it, they say it. Something is wrong here and I really want to know that Im not the only one with a child like this. I look at my other two and see something so different. Ive been around children my whole life and have never experienced this before. Help.
Kim
Banty ba...@banet.net
Then make an appointment with your pediatrician and start the evaluation process!
FWIW, I do know that my 4 year old got really particular for a year or so about what was where, what route we took to get anywhere (he was really upset if I p***ed our house without stopping there), stuff like that. And 3 IME is a really energetic and exasperating age. But, it's a professional who can test him to see what's being 3 1/2 and what might be a problem.
Banty
"SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee" fakeaddr...@home.com
Your son sounds like my 2.8 yr old daughter a little bit. She's pretty anal about where all her toys should be, how her clothes should be. But her Dad is a Marine and very particular about things too. Her thing is "fix it" -
if I have her sock twisted, or her shoes tied too tight, or her shirt sleeves bunched up under her coat sleeves, you name it. She ran in circles for a solid 15 minutes yesterday. I was exhausted watching her. Lol.
Banty had good advice, ask your pediatrician. I think it's sounds normal and your son and my daughter are just very strong-willed, energetic kids.
Later, Sophie
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
"SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee" wrote: But does your daughter keep up her tantrum for an hour straight? I honestly dont like taking him places for fear of him having these fits.
I know they wont be able to deal with this stuff when he starts pre-school. Its like nothing you have ever seen. Kim
Steve rste...@armory.com
He MAY have something going on biochemically, but don't trust yourself to evaluate this, take him to people who know, and don't waste time and money with new age baloney or dietary fads, have him tested and see what they say.
Steve
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
Who would you suggest to start with? I was going to start with an allergist and psychiatrist of some sort.
Kim
Steve rste...@armory.com
Try a child development counselor. The health department has some of them. They see a lot of kids and can tell you if it's just you being less accepting of a very active child, or whether it's your child and he might need chemical help getting the most out of his childhood.
They will refer you as needed. Don't bother with a pediatrician as they can't spend long enough to even be sure of it. And a psychiatrist, even if they specialize in kids, is for later.
Steve
"Edward M Hass" EMH...@prodigy.net
Contact the special Education department of your school district - it sounds like he may have some learning disabilities (many children with the behavior you describe have some sort of learning disability). School districts are required to pay for an evaluation at your request - it will cost you nothing.
It also sounds like he has sensory integration problems. Children with sensory integration problems frequently will freak out if their socks are crooked, or the fabric or labels of their clothes are rough, they're over or under sensitive to cold/heat, sometimes noise etc. Some of them can be very fussy about food textures or tastes - maybe they'll only eat soft foods, or only crunchy foods. Children with sensory integration problems will also frequently try to spin or somersault a lot - it has something to do with resetting how the brain is getting signals from the middle ear. If you do take him for an evaluation, definitely mention all your concerns.
My son has a mild sensory integration problem, and I find that when he's having a bad day, if I take him to the park and let him swing as long as he wants he usually calms down and can cope with life better.
You can do a web search on Sensory Integration to find out about it. There's also a great book out called 'the out of sync child', although I forget the authors' name.
Good Luck Heidi Life is wonderful - p*** it on. Sign your organ donor card.
"Edward M Hass" EMH...@prodigy.net
Actually, most parents of kids with learning disabilities or sensory integration problems have seen these kinds of meltdowns - parents of kids without these problems have NO IDEA what you are dealing with. It's as if you're walking on eggshells all the time with him. You are not alone. I'm still scarred by my son's 2.5 hour meltdown because I didn't prepare him for leaving a store. See my other post about sensory integration issues.
Good Luck Heidi Life is wonderful - p*** it on. Sign your organ donor card.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe kit...@whitepine.com
Hi, Kim.
With the sock - perhaps he is highly sensitive to touch. If so, the slightest twist may be extremely uncomfortable.
This is interesting. Are there any other things that he *has* to have a particular way?
Above, you pointed out another issue with his coat. With both comments, is it the same coat? Could there be something about the coat itself that bothers him in some way, is uncomfortable, painful, etc?
What you've described doesn't sound the least bit spoiled. It sounds like there's something going on and he doesn't know how to communicate it to you. Schedule an appointment with your pediatrician, then make a list of everything you lined out here plus every other seemingly miniscule thing that seems a bit odd. Once you've made the list, look over it and see if any of the items can be grouped together. Get your list organized and take it with you when you go to see the pediatrician. S/he can't help you without complete information about what is going on.
Kitten
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe kit...@whitepine.com
Kim, Thanks to you, Steve has made one of his rare intelligent posts.
You should first go to your family physician or pediatrician. Talk with him/her about the problems you are having and ask for a full physical (including bloodwork for mineral deficiencies, etc) and a referral to the appropriate specialist.
Kitten
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
I did this last year and he refused to answer any of her questions and somehow p***ed. He did however start spouting off every answer to every problem she gave him when we got home. It was very peculiar. He is extremely intelligent so I dont see the learning disability at all.
Wow, this is him to a tee. He will stand in place and jump for 10 minutes. He had tubes a year ago and 1 has since fallen out and the other is just sitting in the ear canal. He is very sensitive to sounds, textures, foods, all the things you spoke of. I will do a search on this sensory thing you spoke of. Thank you so much for this advice.
Kim
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
Oh gosh Heidi, its so nice to actually talk to someone who knows exactly what I go through. Its not a typical tantrum and I get tired of family and friends saying "boys will be boys" Some days I feel like I just want to run away and wonder what I did to make him the way he is.
Kim
Banty ba...@banet.net
Don't go to the allergist first, much too much is blamed on allergies by lay people. Start with a pediatrician with experience in learning and sensory disorders, and he or she will take you through the various physical and psychriatric evaluations, and you will go to specialists as appropriate and necessary.
Banty
"chattycat" chatty...@home.com
I have to say that my first thought as well was a possible problem with sensory integration. I used to see this a lot where I worked. This may or may not be the issue but a really experienced Occupational Therapist (who specializes in sensory integration) would be a good place to start. Even though you posted that he is a smart boy and may not have learning disabilities, he still may be eligible for evaluation through your local school district's special ed dept. You have to be very proactive with them.
If you want to email me, depending on where you live, maybe I can help you get in touch with someone.
Good luck "Edward M H***" <EMH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message ...
"Edward M Hass" EMH...@prodigy.net
He is extremely intelligent so I dont see the learning disability at all.
Children can be gifted and have a learning disability at the same time.
Albert Einstein was considered retarded because he didn't start speaking until he was almost 4. Intelligence has nothing to do with learning disabilities. A learning disability really means a child who learns differently than the 'norm'. It sounds to me as if your child did not get a proper evaluation - he should have had a speech evaluation, an evaluation of his fine and gross motor skills etc. Part of the evaluation should also have been an observation either at home or in the school environment if he's in nursery school. He should also have had a neuropsychological evaluation. I don't know what state you're in, but here in NY they are required to give an actual evaluation, which consists of several professionals from different fields (speech & language, occupational therapy, psychology etc) giving several different tests. An IQ test will show absolutely nothing about learning problems.
Heidi
toto nob...@xxozxx.com
I would certainly speak to a pediatrician about this, but many of the doctors may not know a lot about the possible diagnoses.
One possibility: Was he hospitalized early? Did he seem to have a disruption in his developmental processes at some point?
If so, consider that he might have Sensory Integrative Dysfunction.
This disorder should be evaluated by a professional occupational or physical therapist. Some information and books you can look at are at the following website.
http://www.tsbvi.edu/Outreach/seehear/fall97/sensory.htm There is a very good book for parents and teachers on this called The Out of Sync Child. I don't remember the author at the moment http://www.iaradopt.com/sensory.shtml :>What are some signs of Sensory Integrative :> Dysfunction?
:> :> Overly sensitive to touch, movement, sights, or sounds :>Underreactive to touch, movement, sights, or sounds :>Easily distracted :>Social and/or emotional problems :>Activity level that is unusually high or unusually low :>Physical clumsiness or apparent carelessness :>Impulsive, lacking in self control :>Difficulty making transitions from one situation to another :>Inability to unwind or calm self :>Poor self concept :>Delays in speech, language, or motor skills :>Delays in academic achievement The treatment involved in this does not involve drugs, but occupational therapy to help the child integrate his senses into a more effective system.
If you think that your child may have ADD or ADHD, then you also should educate yourself about this disorder since often pediatricians are not as knowlegdeable as they should be. Evaluation for ADD and ADHD should also be done by a specialist who sees your child for a reasonable length of time and not made in a short pediatric visit.
A decent book on this topic is The Attention Zone by Michael W. Cohen, MD another resource for parents is the alt.support.attn-deficit newsgroup Information on OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) can be found here though the symptoms you describe do not sound like this in my mind.
Again a professional evaluation is necessary.
http://www.psychguides.com/oche.html Dorothy Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
I dont really want to go through my Ped if I dont have to because as nice as he is, he always dismisses any behavioral problems I have with Cameron as being typical age appropriate things. I know i have to have a referral for most things but mental health isn't one of them.
Kim
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
When I had him evaluated at the local school I felt she really dismissed him because there was no room for him at their program anyway. I complained to the right people and got absolutely no where. I didnt even get a written report of his evaluation. The tests she gave him were simply to check if he has a delay. There was nothing at all about behavior issues. She actually told me to read 123 Magic. Thats when I got really pissed and left and started to cry. Noone wants to listen to me and they all say its normal. Ive been around children my whole life and these episodes he has arent normal. Ive been writing down all of the names of people you guys are telling me about and cant thank you enough for this information.
Kim
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
See, I feel I got screwed in the evaluation he had. I know that if I go through a type of mental health group that they will give him all these tests you speak of and hopefully our insurance would cover it. The school however spent probably 1/2 an hour testing him. I was rushed out and never got the evaluation in writing. Im in NH and my youngest son is in speech therapy where they come to our house every week and they said to go through the school. I sort of gave up last year when I didn't get anywhere. People literally blew me off and told me to wait until he hit 1st grade. Kim
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
If you mean was he premature, no. He has had tubes at age 2 and thats it.
Yes, very much sensitive to all.
Not highly unusual I dont think. He doesnt play with any children his own age. He has a younger brother and we dont do any play group things. He did good at the visit to his preschool though.
Extremely high. He can run circles around the inside of the house for an hour.
He is the most accident prone child Ive ever known. I just took him to the ER 2 days ago when he fell off a snow bank and got a concussion. He had his 2nd cat scan. We have pictures of him since an early age with black eyes and huge bumps on his head.
Very uncontrollable at times. He really cant stop himself.
Yes, you have to give him plenty of advance notice or he melts down. My dad took him to a fair and didn't give him notice of when they were stopping the rides and he had a severe meltdown and my dad brought him back saying that there is something wrong with him and he would never take him again.
Can you elaborate more on this?
No, in fact the ENT was surprised that for having a 30% hearing loss he could speak as well as he did.
Not sure on this one. He only recently potty trained and is still having accidents. He is almost 4.
How would they do this?
Kim
"Edward M Hass" EMH...@prodigy.net
He doesn't need to have every single symptom for it to be a problem. I'm not sure, but I believe Sensory Integration training are certain exercises that help give the body extra sensory input, and help the child learn how to do them. It might be a special kind of m***age, or brushing (a technique used with very soft brushes over the arms and legs), swinging, bouncing, sometimes pressure (roll the kid up in a mat and kind of squash him). An occupational therapist who specializes in sensory integration can give the correct evaluation and the exercises to correct it.
One thing that helped my son was the 'sandwich game'. I'd have him lie down on a pillow (which was pretend bread) and pretend he was a piece of bologna.
Then, I'd pretend to spread mustard and other condiments on him (ketchup, mayonnaise, chocolate syrup - anything that would amuse him and help him cooperate). Then, after he was slathered in the pretend condiments, I'd put another piece of 'bread' (another pillow) on top, gently squish it down and pretend to gobble him up. He thought the game was hysterically funny, but actually the sensation of spreading the condiments on him, and then the pressure of me on top of the pillow, somehow calmed him and let him integrate better. It was almost as if he were taking a deep breath and a stretch. Another version of the sandwich game was the burrito game (he loves Taco Bell Burritos). I'd wrap him up in a blanket very tightly, spread hot sauce on him, and then again 'gobble him up'. It was essentially the same as the sandwich game.
Other things that might help him are anything that gives him more sensory input - sand, water (wash a few plastic dishes in the bathroom sink), fingerpaints, play dough etc. might also help.
Realize of course that this is what worked for my son - it does not mean it will work for you. Then again, I doubt that playing the sandwich game will do any harm. You do, however, need to pursue this - the sooner the better.
The earlier these problems are addressed, the less they interfere with later life. If your school district is not cooperating, you may try to contact someone in SEPTA (Special Ed PTA), or try to talk to someone at the State Level of the Department of Education and find out what your rights are.
Don't entirely rely on anything you hear on the internet - you should have him evaluated by a professional.
BTW, many kids with any sort of learning disability (sensory integration or otherwise) have extreme problems with transitioning from one activity to another. I have had many hour to two hour meltdowns because I didn't prepare him for the transition, or I didn't wash his face the correct way. You are not alone.
Good Luck Heidi
"Edward M Hass" EMH...@prodigy.net
I have just spoken with my Mother, who deals with gifted children (this includes gifted children with learning disabilities) in M***achusetts.
According to her, it is a FEDERAL LAW that a school district provide proper evaluations and whatever special services the evaluation shows the child needs. If the school district does not do this, they could lose federal funding. It is in the school districts best interests to not be cut off from federal funds. It is also in the school districts best interest to get the federal funding and try to bamboozle a parent into not pursuing a proper evaluation - evaluations are expensive.
I suggest you try to find some special education advocate networks in your area. You may be able to just call a special education nursery school as a starting point. You can also I'm sure find lots of information for your state's special ed at: http://www.ed.state.nh.us/SpecialEd/Staff.htm Heidi
toto nob...@xxozxx.com
short attention span - do things around him distract him from an activity that he is interested in initially?
No friends his own age? Isn't that unusual at nearly 4? No children in the neighborhood or playdates with other parents of children his age? Is this just because he has older siblings who take up a lot of time so that he hasn't got his own social group?
Says I can't alot? Does not want to try new activities? Afraid that others won't like him?
Does he know letters and sounds? How are his fine motor skills?
Does he draw pictures or still scribble? Does he *pretend* to read?
Does he have stories memorized? Does he scan left to right on the page of a book when you are reading to him? More detail below :>Readiness: :> :>Recognize and recite the alphabet.
most kids know the alphabet song, but they may not yet recognize all the letters otoh, kids in most preschools do recognize many of the letters by 4 - especially the letters in their names :>Recognize and recite numbers.
most kids can recite the numbers to 10, many can go further. Most can recognize the numbers from puzzles and name them by 4 or 4 1/2 :>Develop pre-writing skills.
this means drawing lines and circles and recognizing that writing is a way to tell a story or to communicate :>Recognize the concept of time.
not the actual time, but the fact that time p***es. Most kids count time by activities After lunch, we will...
:>Follow directions.
Most kids at 4 can follow multi-step directions Go get the book and put it on the shelf and then get the truck and put it away.
:>Develop listening and memory skills.
Most kids at 4 can recite and remember their favorite stories and songs and can listen to a story in a group for about 5 to 10 minutes and with mom or dad alone for longer :>Learn self-help skills - zippering, buttoning and :>personal hygiene.
Not really academic, but fine motor so related to writing :>Language Development: :> :> Develop pre-reading skills.
scanning a page from left to right recognizing that print tells a story reading pictures or memorizing stories and pretending to read :> Develop music skills - songs, :> finger-plays and rhythm instruments.
knows and can sing songs and make motions for finger plays beats time reasonably, dances to rhythms :>Motor Skills: :> :> Develop small motor skills through cutting, coloring, :> drawing, puzzles and painting.
this can also be developed using small manipulatives like legos and tinkertoys, etc.
look for pincher grasp, for being able to handle small toys and put them together.
:> Develop large motor skills usually this is done by outdoor play on jungle gyms slides, etc. Sometimes ball games help (soccer, basketball, etc. Tag and other running games are also helpful here.
look at whether he can alternate feet going up and down stairs. climb, skip, hop, jump, run with some real skill It's mostly physical therapy involved with developing his gross and fine motor skills and integrating them into a more coherent system.
The children I have seen with it do progress well, but it takes time and effort and exercises that some of the kids do resist doing as well. I'm not an expert, you need to speak with an occupational therapist who works with this. I know with the child in my cl*** who was doing this, they used the balance beam, they did a lot of writing things and glueing and cutting for fine motor skills. And also gym activities to help with the clumsiness. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
blondy blo...@ttlc.net
He was only there for the morning. They actually have never tested his hearing after having the tubes. Loud noises are very hard for him even now after the tubes arent in.
There are no kids his age in our neighborhood and this winter has been so bad with sickness that every time Im suppose to start a story time or play group I end up canceling. Its just so hard with 3 kids now and someone always being sick that I just dont seem to have the time to work it in.
He does say he cant a lot and now that I think of it he is constantly asking me to help him do things that I know he can do himself. He doesn't seem to be afraid to make friends. At the ENT's office the other day there was a child his age with Downs and I was almost in tears watching him play with the boy. I had that initial fear that he would ask me real loud what was wrong with him or why did he talk funny but it seemed perfectly normal to Cameron and I was so proud of him. He does not know letters or numbers by sight, only by saying them. He draws stick figures and likes to use his hands to create.
Absolutely not. He has a hard time doing more than one thing that he is asked to do. I even remember this at the evaluation and he wouldn't do it. This is good too. He gets frustrated if he cant get it and he changes clothes probably 10 times if not more a day. He is worse than a girl.
Yes, he enjoys dancing and moving around.
Hates them. Tonight he was cutting but just making a huge mess. There was no method to it at all.
He loves sports and does well with throwing and kicking.
Thank you so much for all that you have wrote.
Kim
| To Top |