discipline question
Related Topics
Nancy DeBernardis nde...@udel.edu
Do you have any successful discipline techniques to use for elementary students when they do not obey the rules?
Thanks, Nancy
oldandgrou ...@aol.com
No. Nothing works, sorry.
On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:04:29 -0500, Nancy DeBernardis
Jim Wayne jhwa...@bigfoot.com
I found time out useful when I taught 3rd grade. I'm reposting something I said earlier: Make a series of cards with simple rules on them, such as "Play quietly," "Do not interrupt other groups," "Do not call names," etc.
When a child misbehaves, hand him/her a card. When you hand them the second card, take them out of the group and talk to them about their behavior, reminding them that if they are given a third card, they will go to time out.
Set up a time-out area. Use a separate room if possible, or screen off a portion of the room you are in, if not. Put the disruptive child in that place. Make sure it is absolutely dull. A chair facing a wall on which a list of the rules has been posted is good. If possible, stay near the doorway or entry to the time out area and prevent the child from observing or participating in whatever is going on. Set up a sequence of time-out periods for various disruptions, ranging from 3-10 minutes. Double the times if the disruptions are repeated. Enforce your time-out system very strictly. If there is more than one person in time out, see that they are separated.
DO NOT:
--leave children in time out unsupervised.
--lock the door.
--make exceptions.
DO:
--write out and post the time-out rules.
--let the parents know what your rules are. If you can, give them a letter they must acknowledge with a signature.
--prevent the children from enjoying time out. They must be still and quiet. If they aren't, their time stops and is not restarted until they behave appropriately. A series of inexpensive wind-up timers might be a good investment. If a child in time-out violates the time-out rules, simply hold the timer so it can't move. When the child quiets down, set the timer back on the table and it will continue from where it stopped. You can also add extra time, if your rules call for it.
This system worked for me.
Jim
Michael Connor mcon...@teleport.com
Nancy, I don't know the situation, so I'm commenting blind. But here are my two cents.
It's not a discipline problem, it's a curriculum problem. When the kids play tag, how frequently do kids say, "I'm immune, I can't get tagged, you can't make me freeze? I'm always it. I don't have to stay in bounds." And so on. Answer: hardly ever. That is, the rules make the game fun, and if you want to play the game, you play by the rules. Of course there are disputes about whether I actually got tagged, or stepped out of bounds, but not really about whether I should freeze if tagged. The game is interesting, and relevant to the kids, and so the discipline problems largely go away.
The challenge for the teacher is to construct an environment where the rules to participate make sense, and the kids agree to them, because the rules make the cl***room fun -- that is, healthy, challenging, safe, like that. When the curriculum is relevant and interesting, and the kids agree to the rules for participation, then the discipline problems diminish markedly.
How about this: describe the learning activity which will happen tomorrow. Framed as a problem to solve, or a mystery to solve. Show the cool tools and resources we'll use to try to figure out the mystery. Make sure this is some of your coolest, most fun, most intense stuff. Multiple levels of investigation. Using music, graphs, hands-on, living things -- whatever you know "works" with your kids. Each kid has several things they're trying to find out in the investigation. "I'm Michael, and I want to find out how much the baby chicks weigh, and whether their beaks are sharp, and how fast their hearts beat." Now, ask the kids, what rules should we have for using these tools and resources? What rules should we have to help us be safe, and have fun, and use the tools wisely, as we investigate our puzzle.
Write the rules down. Mebbe the sign committee of your cl*** (you have one, right :) ) makes pictures to go with the rules.
In the afternoon: Ask kids at random to put different rules in their own words. Ask if anyone wants to try to act out what the rule means. Give positive examples of following the rule; solicit negative examples of following the rules. Ask kids how a rule violation should be handled. "What happens if someone breaks a rule tomorrow? What should we do?" Examine the affective ("How does it feel to you when a friend breaks a rule in our cl***? How do you feel when you break a rule in our cl***?") And so on.
Now, have each kid write a letter to a parent/guardian, explaining the rules in their own words. Include what happens if someone breaks a rule.
Last, before the investigating begins: Remind the students of the procedure. "Today, as you know, we're going to be working with the baby chicks, trying to find out everything we can about them. You each have your science journal, and the questions you want to answer." Or whatever. Tell the students that they don't have to do the procedure. They can read in the back, or go to a time-out space, or visit with the librarian, or work on math puzzles with the parent volunteer, or whatever you can arrange. This is voluntary; there are some choices here. But each student who does the procedure agrees to follow the rules. You're going to ask each person: "Do you agree to follow the rules?" Yes or no is the only possible answer. Point at each student. Ask each student, "Do you agree to follow the rules?" If someone says no, it's okay; have a plan.
I'd predict much more than 80% agreement, probably 100%. I'd predict MUCH LESS rule-breaking than you've described. The kids have started to move from TEACHER EXPECTATIONS to AGREEMENTS. The curriculum is relevant and interesting. Choice is involved. Parents are involved. Writing, reading, predicting, choosing, applying, listing, affective, cognitive, psychomotor -- multiple domains, high and low thinking, etc.
The rules become part of your curriculum, and the kids are partners in this.
This experience gets repeated. You chart frequency of rule-breaking. You develop general rules for the cl***. Your cl*** meetings review the data, and revise rules. The kids buy in more and more, and police themselves more and more. They're responsible for their behavior, and their learning; your responsible for framing that learning, providing the tools and resources they need to do their work.
Perhaps you'll feel you don't have time for this. But I'd say that rule-breaking disrupts learning, whereas creating a cl*** community IS learning.
Again, I don't know your situation, and what you've tried. But that's how I'd respond to any discipline problem -- with the belief that a relevant, interesting program will get rid of most of it.
In solidarity, Michael
Scott David Gray sg...@sudval.org
The Judicial System at the Sudbury Valley School -- from the School's literature available from the school's web site, at http://www.sudval.org An alumnus from the Sudbury Valley School says, "The judicial system was really important because it was so obviously justice that you were involved in... You knew how difficult it was. You were on both sides, or all sides, because you might be... a witness, or a complainant, or the alleged violator, or a member of the judicial committee." The judicial system at Sudbury Valley is one of the keystones of the school's structure, and has long been our pride and joy. We have always felt, based on the values of the American experience, that due process of law is an essential element in a school embodying the principles of personal liberty, mutual respect, and political democracy. Early in the first year of the school's existence, the School Meeting devoted long hours to establishing the legal principles and juridical structure of the school, with results that quickly produced a stable social order and a prevailing feeling among students, staff, and parents that here everyone got a fair shake when brought before the bar of justice.
Before proceeding to the particular, some discussion is in order about the general. There are five distinct stages to the judicial process. These are, in serial order: Allegation -- A person is alleged by someone to have committed a misdeed. In the world at large, this allegation can be brought by private individuals (by which I include groups, partnerships, corporations, committees, or other privately organized entities) or by governmental agents. Investigation -- If the allegation is considered to merit further action, an investigation is made of the circumstances surrounding the allegation. In the outside world, the investigation can be carried out by the police, by members of the justice division of the government, or by private individuals.
Charge -- If the investigation is deemed to have yielded sufficient cause for further action, a charge is made that a specific law has been violated, and the alleged violator is brought to trial. The laws concerned may or may not be written (statutes vs. common law) and the alleged wrongdoings may lead to criminal trials or civil suits. In the outside community, the charges can be brought by individuals or by government officials, in the latter case usually by agents of one or another department of justice.
Trial -- Once a charge is made, the case comes to trial. The trial must follow prescribed rules of procedure that are known and considered fair. In the community at large, the trial can be held before a judge, with or without a jury, or before an arbitration panel, with or without right of appeal, depending on circumstances; usually, however, there is some mechanism for appealing a decision against a defendant. The trial delivers as its culmination a verdict or decision. In our system, there is no double jeopardy, which means that a person found innocent of a particular charge of wrongdoing may not again be brought to trial on the same charge.
Sentence -- If a person is found through the trial process to have done wrong, that person is sentenced (by which I include, for purposes of this discussion, civil decisions ***essing damages, penalties, etc.). In the world at large, sentencing is usually carried out by a judge, most often the trial judge, but occasionally by the jury in certain types of jury trial. There is always an opportunity to appeal a sentence on certain specified grounds.
The entire five stage process outlined ever so briefly above constitutes the generally accepted juridical system in most societies. Where societies differ radically from one another is in the way these steps are carried out the "rules of the game." In this country, we have laid great stress on having the whole process take place according to "due process of the law," a phrase which over the years has come to be laden with meaning for all Americans. Generally speaking, "due process" ***ures each and every one of us that we are to be given a fair shake at every one of the five stages of the juridical process. "Fair shake" is not, of course, any more specific or enlightening than "due process" in and of itself, but a great deal of legal history has given rich content to these words, and most citizens of this country, from all walks of life, have a rather good idea of what they mean.
Let's put it this way. We do not expect to be subject to frivolous or trumped-up allegations. We expect investigations to be thorough and complete, not whitewashed and not such as fabricate "facts" or suppress truths. We expect charges to be specific, relevant, and not ex post facto.
We expect trials to be open, fair, not biased, and such as give full rights and opportunities to the accused to be adequately defended. And we expect sentences to be fair, and to reflect in a balanced manner society's need for rehabilitation, retribution, and prevention. Any society that does not fulfill these expectations in its legal system is considered by us to be severely, fundamentally, flawed.
Let's take a close look, step by step, at how the judicial system works. The school appears by now to have a well established tradition that all allegations of misdeeds be made by individuals, without the need for any school officials to supplement this course. This is as it has been from the beginning, and as long as there is a full complement of socially responsible people at school which, in effect, is as long as the school will continue to function according to its basic principles there does not seem to be a reason to modify this approach. For the sake of a clear record, all complaints are written, and there are plenty of people around who are glad to help the illiterate put into writing their oral complaints, by serving as scribes and ***istants.
The next step is the crucial one. At the time the complaint is presented, no one knows whether it is serious or frivolous, whether it does or does not involve a breach of the rules, whether the alleged accused was or was not involved and, if so, whether alone or with others. These uncertainties are the reason an investigation is needed, and the Judicial Committee carries out such an investigation (as its mandate expressly requires). But the important point is that at this stage what we want is a report on the facts; there is yet no concrete charge, no trial, no plea.
Only when the JC has completed its investigation (and only if it has succeeded in finding out something of substance) is a charge entertained, by the JC itself. It is in the best possible position to zero in on the exact violation that appears to have been committed, and on the exact parties involved. In a very real sense, the JC is properly the school's grand jury, collecting all the evidence, and then preparing charges for trial where there is sufficient reason to proceed. And the very constitution of the JC, being a cross section of the school, ***ures everyone of fair treatment by their peers.
Once a charge has been made by the JC against someone, the wheels of due process can turn, and nothing is to stop them from turning smoothly and promptly. The JC clerk notifies the person charged, and a plea is entered.
If "guilty," a trial is not needed, and sentence can be imposed.
If the plea is "not guilty," a trial must be held. The trial is scheduled by the presiding officer, the School Meeting Chairman, within a day or two of the time when the defendant was notified and pleaded "not guilty;" six disinterested School Meeting members serve as jurors; the JC, as bringer of the charge, arranges for a prosecutor; the accused can defend himself or enlist ***istance in the defense; and the trial is open to all School Meeting members, as it should be.
Sentencing is in the hands of the JC. In most cases, the investigation, charge, guilty plea and sentence take place in one continuous sequence, since the overwhelming number of infractions are of a nature where this can take place with no violence to justice. In the few complex cases, a little more time is needed; but the JC's involvement from beginning to end gives it a unique vantage point from which to come up with a fair sentence, and again its constitution as a cross-section of peers is a critical re***urance of fairness to all who come before it.
When all is said and done, the above analysis reaffirms the essential soundness of the existing juridical process. By clearly separating investigation, charge, and trial, we make everyone aware of the need for clearly drawn charges, based on clearly promulgated rules; for full notification of each defendant as to precisely what they are accused of doing; for an impartial trial; for an opportunity to prepare the best defense available. In this way, due process is joined to fairness in the uniquely constituted judicial system of the school.
--
--Scott David Gray reply to: sg...@sudval.org http://www.unseelie.org/ ============================================================ It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens.
-- Woody Allen ...
Grannie Nannie hamilton-hoff...@att.net
I have something called "The Book". There's a page for each child in the book. When a rule is broken they have to go get "The Book" and write the following information: Name Date What rule did you break Why? After I read it.... and if it is truthful.... I initial it. Then I use this book to share with parents at all conferences. The rule is the first time there's an entry in "The Book" the child does without lunch with the cl***. He/She must eat with me at the detention table where we talk about what happened. The second time there's an entry in "The Book", a note go homes to the parents. The third time, a conference is scheduled with the parent and child. The fourth time a conference is held with the teach, parents, child and principal. We usually NEVER get to the last consequence.
I find this method also helps me when I'm filling out report cards. It's a good record of problems I may have had with students.
--
Nanci ~??~ ~ :::::::::::::::34 years of teaching and learning::::::::::::::::: and loving it more each and every day!
http://www.bucklake.leon.k12.fl.us/Hoffman/hoffman.html "I thought I saw the light at the end of the tunnel........... But it turned out to be the on-coming train!"
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
WE use that too, Nanci!
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
toto nob...@xxozxx.com
On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 00:05:53 GMT, Grannie Nannie Anyone report good behavior instead of problems?
Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
Grannie Nannie hamilton-hoff...@att.net
Yes. But that book is "The Golden Book".
--
Nanci ~??~ ~ :::::::::::::::34 years of teaching and learning::::::::::::::::: and loving it more each and every day!
http://www.bucklake.leon.k12.fl.us/Hoffman/hoffman.html "I thought I saw the light at the end of the tunnel........... But it turned out to be the on-coming train!"
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
I do. But I also keep track of disciplinary issues. We have cards for good behavior as well. Students get rewards after a set number of signatures.
But they aren't allowed to BEG for the signatures.
My students also know they can "choose the color" of the pen I write good notes home in, or on their tests/quiz papers.
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
elques ...@aol.commitment (Samuel Waters)
Kick them out of cl***...again and again and again and again. In Maryland the teachers now have total control over a child being in their cl***. Once a child is kicked out, the child cannot be returned to that cl*** until there is a parent/teacher/admin conference. After a parent has to run to the school for the 3rd or 4th time in as many days, you will begin to see a serious change in the child's behavior once the parent realizes that they need to be a parent.
elques ...@aol.commitment (Samuel Waters)
Thanks to the Maryland teacher's union (one of the good things they have done) once a child is kicked out of cl***, they cannot be admitted back to cl*** until a parent/teacher/admin conference has been held. That means, if mommy or daddy won't come, the kid sits in the In School Suspension room until they show up. The law allows the parents 5 work days to show up and if they don't a complaint goes to child welfare and the parents receive a summons to show up in court for child neglect. We don't play games with children or parents anymore in Maryland.
Believe me, they show up, and the child's behavior changes real quickly.
toto nob...@xxozxx.com
Chicago's parent conference allows only 3 school days, but the student is on out-of-school suspension not ISS. Many kids in the inner city consider it a 3 day vacation from school since they are also allowed to make up work if they so choose.
Wish I could say the same of Chicago's inner city schools. But the capacity of the ISS rooms is not very large and so there would be a big problem at the large high schools here even if it was done your way. I would love to see this tried here though.
Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
"SumBuny4Me" rouss...@NOSPAMhome.com
What do you do when the child has been repeatedly suspended for the same type of offense, and the school does nothing to address the issue *in the cl***room*?
OK, so mine is a spec ed case, but at the time, the admin didn't see it that way. Only in 20/20 hindsight did he realize that the environment in the cl***room needed to be addressed(my son is ADHD/gifted/PDD-NOS[high functioning autism]), so that his communication problem(due to autism) was being properly addressed, and that certain cl***mates could no longer goad him into "improper verbalisation", which got him suspended (manifestation of disabilities).
We kept going to school and bringing him home(with absolutely NO privalges, so we were not the "don't care" parents). My husband then addressed the principal with, "This behavior does not happen anywhere *but* school (not at home, on outings, in scouting, in large family groupings, in church, Sunday school, etc). Obviously something is going on in the cl***room and needs to be addressed, but we, as parents, have no control over that. What are *ou* as principal, doing about the situation, other than removing him-which is obviously not changing anything???" Between that, and several IEPs (finally adding a 1:! aide to the equation) that were mainly dealing with consistancy of application of his accommodations, gues what? He is no longer having these problems.
The school changed, our parenting *did not*. Sometimes the problem *is* in the schools, where we parents have no control.
--
Buny http://members.delphi.com/sumbuny/index.html
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
Amazing, because we did that in my old school, and it never had any effect at all.
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
mark_prob ...@hotmail.com (Mark Probert)
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:58:41 GMT, "SumBuny4Me" Been there, done that.
My younger son is now attending the same junior high school that was so toxic to my older son. The entire *administration* has changed.
However, he has some of my older son's former teachers.
They have all told us the same thing: When my older son was there, the principal and other administrators **never listened to them** when they brought the problems up and tried to advise the administrators that it was not my son, but the envorinment of permissiveness that allowed the instigators and goaders to get away with their actions.
Now, the principal is a mother of three, one of whom has ADHD, and knows EXACTLY where the problems lie.
mark_prob ...@hotmail.com (Mark Probert)
On 06 Mar 2001 02:10:20 GMT, "Magi D. Shepley" Side note: The NYC BdofEd tried something new this year. The goal was to get the parents into the schools. I personally think it was a good idea, for more than one reason.
Instead of sending home report cards, parents had to come in and pick them up.
Some school districts still have over 10% of the report cards from November.
At least the school now knows which parents do not care.
"SumBuny4Me" rouss...@NOSPAMhome.com
Glad to hear that the school "prognosis" for your younger son is an improvement over the elder.
Funny how an educated educator(or administrator) makes *all* the difference in the world, huh?
--
Buny http://members.delphi.com/sumbuny/index.html
toto nob...@xxozxx.com
Chicago does that for the first and third quarters but still sends the semester reports I believe. Very few parents in the school I taught at pick up those grades.
Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
I don't think we tried that one, but we tried other things... I think schedules was one, and we offered free food too.
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
elques ...@aol.commitment (Samuel Waters)
The new law took the power away from the admin and gave it to the teachers.
The admin *had* to deal with the kids that were being sent out of cl***. At the last school I was a teacher at, the small gym became In School Suspension (ISS). When the law was drafted it was pointed out that Out of School Suspension was exactly what many of these kids were looking forward to. They still received ***ignments and tests from the cl*** they were suspended from and still had to attend cl***es they had not been thrown out of.
elques ...@aol.commitment (Samuel Waters)
This should be grounds for neglect. But I guess NYC and my own state has enough to handle right now.
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
I repeat. We had in-school suspension at my old school and it had absolutely NO EFFECT. The in-school suspension teacher was a certified teacher and they DID ACADEMICS. They also did community/school grounds clean-up and physical activity. They were NOT permitted to eat lunch with their buddies, and not permitted to have anything other than a packed lunch (no soda, no chips, no junk) or the standard school lunch (with white milk, not chocolate or the sugary juice). They were ESCORTED to the bathroom at scheduled intervals.
IT HAD NO EFFECT ON ANY OF THEM.
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
elques ...@aol.commitment (Samuel Waters)
The fact that it had no effect on the removed student is not the focus. It had a positive effect on the cl*** with them gone. Throw the jerks overboard to save the willing.
| To Top |