me and my 3.5 yo
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"Stephanie Stowe" st...@whackthisvsac.org
I am having trouble with discipline with my 3.5 yo. I am finding that I do not know what to expect from him. What things that I want to change are reasonable to change and what are the best ways to do it. My ped recommended a book by Brazleton. I wanted to get a reading from you all about this guy.
At first I thought he was the right-wing nutcase who advocates scheduled feeding, even for breastfed babies and a spare the rod, spoil the child approach for discipline. What is that guy's name? I cannot remember.
Anyway, Brazleton seems OK from the reviews I see on amazon. Anyone have any comments. I am interested particularly in loving discipline. I want a harmonious household that people like to be in, so constant power struggles are not for me. On the other hand, I do not beleive that positive parenting has to mean no parenting. I would like constructive suggestions on how to acheive some of this.
Thoughts?
S
dragonlady meho...@REMOVEpacbell.net
I like Brazelton.
You might be thinking of John Rosemond? He writes a parent advice column, and I find I often disagree with him. He's pretty opposed to co-sleeping, among other things, and has a more rigid approach to parenting than I like.
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Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
Dally da...@myself.com
I've always liked Brazelton. He wrote a book called "Working & Caring" about using daycare that saved my sanity. (It was the first book that didn't suggest the child would grow up to be a m*** murderer.) I like that he shows a variety of babies - gives a range of normal - in his examples.
I also liked Penolope Leach.
All in all, I think the more you read the better off you are, since even if you disagree with someone you'll be able to articulate more why you disagree.
Oh, and don't forget "The Magic Years" - the best book about being three ever!
-- Dally
"Sue" sburke9...@wideopenwest.com
I have always like Brazelton. He has a gentle way about him. He used to have a TV show when my first was a baby, but I am not sure about now. Three year olds need to be able to make some choices on their own and have some independence, but at the same time they are afraid of being too big. It's a hard time for them.
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Sue (mom to three girls) ...
"Circe" guav...@yahoo.com
I think she might be thinking of Ezzo (at least when it comes to scheduled feedings and the like).
There's also Dobson in this camp.
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Be well, Barbara Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6) Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy." Me (later)--"You should feel flattered." All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman
"Stephanie Stowe" st...@whackthisvsac.org
That's it! Ezzo.
"Denise Anderson" anderso...@nospam.net
I like Brazleton. Someone else recommended Penelope Leach, and I'd like to second that suggestion. Of course with any books, you're just gonna have to read them and come away with your own ideas on how to apply their principles to you're parenting style.
Denise
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
Dobson? Ezzo?
I like Brazelton for the most part. He has the obnoxious soothing pediatrician voice, but I suppose that wouldn't be an issue with a book ;-) He takes a very developmental approach. Some people feel that he's a bit too harsh on working parents (seems to have a lot of sympathy for them, but doesn't always have suggestions that work all that well for a two-parents-working-outside-
the-home family). He's not much for power struggles.
Sounds like he'd be worth a shot for you, though there are other authors you might like as well.
Best wishes, Ericka
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
Me too. She's one of my favorites. She's so level-headed and sensible, plus I like her politics ;-) Best wishes, Ericka
"Circe" guav...@yahoo.com
Me three, except I don't have any idea what her politics are. (But I figure she can't be a right wing nutjob or she wouldn't be so sensible in the first place <g>!)
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Be well, Barbara Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6) Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy." Me (later)--"You should feel flattered." All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
She has a wonderful book out advocating for the things we should be doing as a society for children. I gather she's been spending most of her time on advocacy for children recently. Lemme see if I can turn up the title...it's called _Children First: What Society Must Do--And Is Not Doing--For Children Today_. Very good book.
Take care, Ericka
"JennP" nojenniferpinckneys...@comcast.net
I think she might be thinking of Ezzo, IMO.
--
JennP.
mom to Matthew 10/11/00 EDD #2 10/24/04 remove "no........spam" to reply
"Tori M." jeffnt...@Obliviouslakeland.ws
You know we people on the spank, DTD Dobson side see you all as Left wing nutjobs, Just an observation ;) I must say I have seen both sides at times and I am for spanking when apropriate. Not all actions deserve spanking but on the other hand some things need more disapline then a time out. Dr.
Dobson is a Christian psychologist that I admire and he has done good things in the parenting community. I agree with whoever says you should read the books and then come up with your own parenting style. I tend to read both sides of the issue and then meet someplace in the middle where apropriate.
Tori
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Bonnie 3/20/02 Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04
"Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang" bridgemany...@comcast.net
Yep. DH's family tend to be on the Dobson, Rosemond side of things (they see Billy Graham as a moderate) while my side gives me the crunchy-granola books (e.g., organic baby food, family-bed, extended nursing, etc). So, we have books covering the spectrum except for the middle. I read all the books (might as well) and pick and choose although I tend to follow the Brazelton, Sears, Leach approach.
Jeanne
"Circe" guav...@yahoo.com
Well, let me just say that it's not, IMO, about spank vs. non-spank. (I've been known to spank on rare occasions--mainly when the kids did something that really hurt me or that scared me, like the time Aurora bit me on the inside of the thigh or the time Julian turned Aurora upside down in the Exersaucer. Yowza!) I don't think spanking is a particularly effective *disciplinary* technique, mind you, but I have done it..
But for me, the debate is about authoritarian vs authoritative parenting. By and large, folks like Dobson and Rosemond are in the authoritarian parenting camp--parenting, as far as they are concerned, seemed to be mostly about demanding that your kids behave in a certain way and worrying less about being nurturing and responsive to their emotional needs and wants. They tend to cl***ify any style of parenting in which the parents try to balance the needs/wants of the children with their own as overly permissive and therefore damaging.and "bad". But authoritative parenting *isn't* the same as permissive parenting--it just means that parents tend to get desirable behaviors not simply by demanding them, but rather by nurturing those desirable behaviors in addition to enforcing them through discipline.
I like this description of authoritative parenting: "Authoritative parenting, according to Lawrence Steinberg, is the reasonable balance of three major aspects of parents' behavior toward their children-nurturance, discipline and respect. The balance of these three is critical for effective parenting, and holds across cultures and economic circumstances.
Parental Responsiveness (love, warmth, nurturance): Parental responsiveness is the extent to which parents respond to the child's needs in an accepting, supportive manner. It is a very powerful force in the development of children, and most children probably do not get enough. Nurturance helps children feel loved, secure, and cared about, and it fosters children's acceptance of discipline and parental demands. There are many ways to respond and nurture children, including listening attentively spending time with children, being available, and giving more attention to that which pleases and less to that which does not ("catch them being good").
Parental Demandingness (discipline, control) Demandingness is the extent to which a parent expects and demands responsible behavior from children. This dimension includes both setting and enforcing rules or limits on children.
In order to be enforced, rules must be clear, reasonable, developmentally appropriate, fair and just, mutually agreed upon, flexible, and emphasize what to do rather just what not to do. Enforcement of rules is much more than just punishment. Indeed, punishment is probably the least effective of the alternatives available. Monitoring and understanding children's behavior, preventing misbehavior, rewarding good behavior, and guidance are more effective tools.
Parents vary on how they balance these two dimensions. Some parents are warm and accepting while others are unresponsive or even rejecting. Some parents are demanding and expect a great deal of their child, while others are permissive and demand very little.
Granting Psychological Autonomy (Respect) This somewhat complicated sounding concept is increasingly being recognized by scholars to be equally as important as responsiveness and demandingness, particularly as children reach adolescence. This concept helps to clarify parental control, by distinguishing between behavioral and psychological control.
According to Steinberg, the child development literature indicates that "adolescents appear to be adversely affected by psychological control-interference in the youngster's psychological autonomy-and positively influenced by behavioral control or the presence of demandingness." Inadequate parental control deprives the child of guidance and supervision and therefore places the child at risk for developmental difficulties. Too much psychological control can limit the young person's opportunity for self-discovery, disrupt the establishment of identity, undermine confidence, and result in inadequate understanding and expression of emotions.
One reason this third dimension-granting psychological autonomy-has been overlooked in much of the socialization literature is because that literature consists heavily of studies of young children. The psychological autonomy dimension does not emerge as a critical variable until children reach early adolescence, around age 10 or 11, and begin to establish an independent psychological identity.
The University of Minnesota's Positive Parenting project has been evolving a conceptual framework built around the these three concepts-responsiveness (or nurturance), demandingness (or discipline), and granting of psychological autonomy (or respect) - which guides it research, educational materials and professional development efforts. For further information about this conceptual framework and the many parenting tools or practices that derive from it, see the Positive Parenting curricula, parent materials, or website (www.parenting.umn.edu). The Positive Parenting team welcomes your questions and suggestions. (Citations and sources for this article are available on request)" I just don't see Dobson, Rosemond, or Ezzo as being supportive of this style of parenting at all.
And I cannot admire him at all because of his stance on homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Even if I agreed with his parenting advice (which I do not, based on what I've read), I could not admire him.
But I digress...
--
Be well, Barbara Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6) Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy." Me (later)--"You should feel flattered." All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman
"Staycalm" lizir...@hatespam.optusnet.com.au
Thanks Barbara. I found this both interesting and helpful.
Liz ...
Al Bell allb...@ctc.net
My daughter is just 20 months old now, so I guess I'll learn, but it seems to me that these are the strategies that I use now and hope I'll be able to use in the future:
- As much as possible, feed your child nutritious organic food and encourage your baby to take a daily multivitamin. Also try to limit consumption of organic trashy foods, such as fruit juice (other than a little orange juice or other Vitamin C juice) and organic white bread. I don't know if food dye really causes behavior problems, but why mess around that stuff.
- Whenever possible, avoid conflicts by toddlerproofing, allowing for loose scheduling, allowing eccentric behavior that causes no harm to others (i.e., wearing mismatched clothes; thumb sucking), allowing your child to select from a wide range of reasonably healthy food, etc.
- Whenever possible, avoid making your child do things for your pleasure or convenience. Don't force your child to spend time at fancy restaurants, shop at department stores, say "thank you" to grandma, etc. unless you absolutely have to. (E.g., Grandma will leave $1 million to you in your will if your toddler says thank you to her.) Teach manners by being as polite as you can to your toddler and other people around you, and maybe by playing "please" and "thank you" games with your toddler and his dolls or stuffed animals. Don't try to teach manners by being rude or condescending toward your toddler.
- Don't expect your toddler to be more social with other toddlers than he wants to be.
- Try to spend as much possible in parks and other settings that are reasonably well toddler-proofed and where messes are no problem or somebody else's problem.
- Warn your child about unacceptable behavior once or maybe twice. Once you're sure your child has heard or should have heard you, and your child is ignoring you, physically correct the problem while politely explaining why you're doing so. Example: if your child runs to the street, physically restrain him and say, "*You* are good, but the street is dangerous. The cars can hurt you. I love you and want you to stay on the sidewalk, where it's safe." I don't think it makes sense to punish children for this sort of thing at all. Either they're developed enough to understand why they shouldn't run into the street or they're not, or they understand and have some kind of psychological problem that needs professional treatment.
- Do your best to acknowledge children's expressions of unhappiness, and apologize to children when they're right. ("You're angry because we've been in the supermarket too long. You're right. I wish I could get us out of here quicker.") Never try to stop crying, etc. except by saying, "I wish I could make it better," distracting the child or offering some kind of relief. Such as bringing out a fun toy, playing some kind of simple game, etc. One thing that's way worse than a crying child is a parent who's screaming at the crying children to stop crying.
- Set sensible boundaries on behavior and stick to them. Maybe your son doesn't have to tell Grandma that he loves her if he doesn't want to, but he can't hit her or break or gl*** figurines.
My feeling is that, when parents follow this approach, their toddlers probably will be roughly as naughty and mercurial as other toddlers. But the mellow parents will have more fun than other parents and won't run the risk of turning the toddlers into baby rebels.
toto scarec...@wicked.witch
I like the way you said this. I agree too. A lot of positive parenting is simply a way to allow everyone to mellow out and accept the developmental stages for what they are -
kids learning how to do things and learning how to be members of the human race. Usually, parents punish when their nerves are shot. Why not help your own attitude. It makes the whole family feel better.
--
Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
"Stephanie Stowe" st...@whackthisvsac.org
This sentence "Not all actions deserve spanking but on the other hand some things need more discipline than a timeout." Makes me think you misunderstand a fundamental idea of the likes of Brazelton and his dudes.
Discipline Does Not Equal Punishment. This is a thing that a good friend of mine and I discuss from time to time. She cannot get with the idea that discipline could mean anything other than punishment and reward, where punishment is needed more often. I see punishment as an obstruction to true understanding en route to self-discipline.
toto scarec...@wicked.witch
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:48:23 -0400, "Stephanie Stowe" I would have to agree on that.
The word discipline in English comes from the Latin disciplina.
That word means follower or learner. So discipline is teaching and learning, not punishment and reward.
Have you ever talked to her about the *discipline* of mathematics or the *discipline* of Engineering?
Discipline is: Giving your child the tools to succeed in life.
Doing whatever you have to do to like living with your children Discipline is based on building the right relationship with a child more than using the right techniques.
Helping your child develop inner controls that last a lifetime.
I tend to agree. In fact, reward is also an obstruction to this.
Anything which places the locus of control outside the child does not contribute to teaching him or her self-control and self-discipline.
I do think it is difficult to get away from the behaviorist model of parenting because it is what has been used by our own parents and getting away from it feels like a criticism of their parenting. But our parents did the best they could with what they knew. We know a great deal more about the psychology and development of children now than was known when we were children.
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Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
"Stephanie Stowe" st...@whackthisvsac.org
<SNIP> What Brazelton calls facing the your own ghosts from the nursery. For me it is not that I am worried about critcising my parents or their parenting. Not am I worried about it being some kind of admission that I am a monster. I am pretty confident in myself (cough, cough). What the problem is for me is that it feel stilted to do other than what I am used to. I have to work really hard to see it working and not resort, in a weak and tired moment, to that which I am accustomed to. You know?
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