How to treat a scoundrel in the family

jack ...@employees.org.removetomail (Jackie)

Recently, my husband's 43-year old brother left his wife of 20+ years after he began an affair with a married, much younger woman that he works with. I am appalled by my brother-in-law's actions, these among them: * BIL and his wife were in the process of adopting two children from the county foster system. The two children had been living with them for over a year when he left. They had been treated by their numerous cousins-to-be (and the rest of the family) as welcome additions to the large clan that is my husband's family. The two children are now back in foster care.
* BIL left not only his wife but two adult stepsons who he raised since they were very young. They (and their families) want nothing further to do with BIL.
* When BIL left his wife, he promptly moved in with my husband's parents. He's not paying rent and I heard a rumor (yes, it's JUST a rumor but still...) that he is refusing to help his estranged wife with mortgage payments on their house. This man has a well-paying job. He's gone all night during the week, and all weekends, presumably because he's with girlfriend. I think my in laws are enablers, but that's a story for another post.
* BIL's girlfriend makes phone calls to estranged wife making numerous laughable-if-they-weren't-so-cruel comments, for example "They weren't your "real" kids--we're going to have our OWN kids!" in reference to the foster children.
* BIL recently asked his elderly aunt to borrow $700, though he's never repaid any previous loans from her. (She said no to this one.) At recent family functions, my BIL acts as if nothing has changed. He's always had a happy-go-lucky personality, always smiling, etc. I think what my BIL is doing is very wrong. My husband does too but seems to not know what to do.
It's all I can do to curtly answer BIL's greetings: "How are you doing?" etc when I see him now (frequently) at my in-laws' home.
What is the acceptable way of acting in this situation? I don't think I can overstate how upset and angry I am. I have absolutely no interest in speaking with him but I also recognize that he is my husband's brother and my childrens' uncle and therefore is likely to be in my life for a long tim. For this reason, I suppose I should maintain a courteous attitude toward him, right?
What are the etiquette expectations if BIL starts bringing new girlfriend to family functions? It seems farfetched because everyone in his family is very angry with BIL, yet his parents are allowing him to stay with them, rent free.
It is a remote possibility that she might appear uninvited and, from what I can gather from my many sisters-in-law, unwelcome at one of our frequent family events. Right now, I feel that I do not want to speak to her or acknowledge her existence, ever, but I will if deemed required by etiquette.
Is the "cut direct," discussed before in this group, appropriate in this situation? If BIL actually married her, does that change things?
I realize I can't change the dynamics in my husband's family nor can I demand that my husband shun his brother. I only want to know what is expected of me when I cannot in any way approve of, or even accept, my BIL's actions.
Jackie

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

Be coolly polite and take your cues from your husband and the rest of his family.

Jeff Zahn jz...@pipeline.com.invalid

I am an infrequent poster here, but I am still allowed to have an opinion (I think), which will be interspersed with your query [much snippage follows].
For the record, I ***ume you are relating a mostly accurate account of the situation, even though your story is (unavoidedly) tinged by your feelings about it. I am NOT advocating or defending BIL's behavior, but I want to add my take on it: jack...@employees.org.removetomail (Jackie) wrote in So, BIL not only abandoned his wife, but also his new two foster children, who are now back in the Foster Care system. And you are outraged by that.
Understood.
But you have NO control over that situation, even though you wish you could (I'm guessing) His two adult stepsons should be in charge of their own lives, by now. To BIL's credit (and I am NOT taking sides here) he DID raise them "since they were very young." Their reactions and their families reactions are not really the issue here.
Whom are also BIL's parents. Right? This was THEIR (the parents' choice).
Without knowing more about the reasons that he left his estranged wife, other than the allegation that he "took up with a much younger woman, who he works with" it's hard to call. His having a well-paying job is irrelevant. Again, his parents accepted the arrangement and that's really NOT YOUR BUSINESS).
HE left HIS wife and moved in with HIS parents, his behavior and your in-
laws', is also irrelevant.
Now it gets interesting. Is the GIRLFRIEND really calling BIL's estranged wife and making these comments? For what purpose? Since the "foster children" are now "back in the system" BIL (supposedly) has no further responsibilities?
His elderly aunt is exercising her own discretion (this time). And she's probably a smart cookie.
"Your BIL?" And why is your current husband concerned about the behavior or actions of your ex?
I think you already have overstated it. I understand that you are upset and angry, but I think you have to choose your own battles, sometimes.
So don't speak to him, except to be courteous. No affection is required.
What about the current girlfriend, whom he left his wife for? Is it her fault? Should you shun her in order to punish BIL, or to punish her?
Their (the parents, at least) choice, and not your call. They are, again HIS parents. The rest of the family are allowed to have their own opinions and behaviors.
So, she's unwelcome. Fine. Don't invite him or her to family events that you host. If you're not the host, just act polite-like. The rest of your family must make their own decisions.
So, don't speak to her or acknowledge her (welcomely). Of course, if she's actually at a family function, to pretend that she doesn't EXIST would be rude. It doesn't mean you have to be overly friendly.
The "cut direct" is NOT appropriate unless you are trying to ACTIVELY indicate to someone (and almost always to OTHERS)that you DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THEY EXIST BECAUSE OF A PERSONAL GRUDGE or something equally heinous.
What did she, personally, do to HURT YOU? There is almost always a price to pay if you use the "cut direct" behavior on YOUR part when it is unnecessary and others will not understand it.
I wouldn't spend the effort or time on this. Just saying "Hello, how are you?" and then not listening to the answer, and wandering away, may achieve the same effect. Oh--Wait, that IS the cut INdirect.
Nope, you can't. So get over it. Or nag your husband until he has a "TALK" with his brother about what's really going on. But I doubt that will happen, based on your story.
approve of, or even accept, my BIL's actions.
You don't have to "approve of or even accept" ANYONE's actions in order to be cordial to them.
Again with the "my BIL" hmmmm.
To Summarize: BIL is your husband's brother. He's living with HIS parents.
You are NOT responsible for BIL's behavior, no matter how much it bothers you.
Even though it's easy to say without knowing more of the details, my advice is: 1) Get Over It 2) Be Nice 3) Focus on your OWN immediate family That is all, Auntie Jefff
--
(Looking forward to Uncle Mandrake's Take on the Subject)

kmd kristen.d...@yale.edu

If forced together into a social situation, I agree. But I share Jackie's feeling that volunarily socializing with this cad is a tacit endorsement of his behaviour. We have the right to refuse our voluntary society to someone who cavalierly violates every one of our mores. You remember, I hope, the expression "not received in polite society?" In your place, Jackie, I would probably stop going to any purely social function at which he would be present.
I would still go to church with him.
Probably because he is her husband's brother and thus her brother-in-law.
In-laws are family. There are ways in which we should all be more reticent with our in-laws, but what we do affects them and what they do affects us. They are family.
--
Kristen

totot ...@atlanticcoast.invalid (Uncle Mandrake)

It's all very romantic to think of marriage as "made in heaven" a la Harlequin Romances. However, the reality is that people often make mistakes when they marry, while others change to the point of incompatibility. If the marriage is fundamentally failing, your BIL has, in fact, done the right thing instead of prolonging a painful charade.
It's not your fight. Best to do nothing and stop being so judgmental. Sure, he sounds like a cad and a bounder, but appearances can be deceiving. How do you know he didn't leave because he found his wife in flagrante delicto with the entire hockey team from the local highschool, but is maintaining a dignified silence?
I really think you need to get a grip on yourself and stop trying to fight other folks' battles.
You say "everyone is very angry with bil", then offer two important exceptions. So it's really not "everyone". And anyway, why does it matter what his family thinks? Are you in some kind of cult where you have to think only the approved thoughts?
What's expected is for you to stop sitting in the judgment seat; it's not for you to approve or disapprove other folks' marital arrangements and disarrangements. And then behave well. Keep in mind the bibical admonition "judge not lest ye be judged."
--
Uncle Mandrake Victoria, BC, Canada [change "atlantic" to "pacific" and "invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

jack ...@employees.org.removetomail (Jackie)

I thought someone might call me to the carpet for being judgmental, but at what point can I consider behavior wrong? Is everything relative? Must we ignore terrible behavior because we can there might be a valid reason that that excuses the behavior? I'm not announcing to everyone: "I think BIL is a big jerk because..." I've kept my opinions between me and my husband.
I don't think appearances are deceving in this case because almost all of his actions have been selfish and self-serving, without regard for those closest to him.
I know he didn't, just like I know he hasn't been reprogrammed by aliens and that he's not an undercover CIA agent working on a long-term undercover operation to defeat terrorists.
I'm not sure which two exceptions you're citing. If you refer to his parents, they are angry with him, even though he's living with them. If you refer to his brother (my husband), he doesn't qualify for an exception either.
I'm not in any cult. Why the sarcasm? My point about what other members of the family think was to show that I'm not the exception in the family, that is, my views are not "way out there" by family standards. You can use that information how you like. Apparently, you choose to think that it means I'm in a cult.
See above, re: "judging." I disagree. At some point, I think someone's behavior is bad enough that it's considered "wrong." I think it's an easy out for you to say "You're being judgmental." Is there no action that you won't condemn? We make judgments every day, based on our experiences. How I choose to act based on what I think is the subject of the OP.
I think this particular situation has a larger scope than "marital arrangements," and I also think I have the right to a personal opinion. What I don't have the right to do is act on that personal opinion by telling others what I think or acting rudely to the people based on what I think.
Rest ***ured, I have behaved well to date.
I don't think that you would not come to any conclusions about a person based on his behavior. If not based on behavior, then what? If your sister or mother was about to marry someone who you knew engaged in similar kinds of behavior, would you be happy for her? To clarify: I'm not asking if you would express to her your misgivings (that would be rude) but in your own mind, would you be happy that she was marrying someone she loved, regardless of what you knew about the person's actions, whatever those actions were?
Several responses seem to think I should worry about only my own family, but this is my family. My husband's family is a very close one. Members live close together (one sister-in-law and her husband live next door to my in-laws), and spend a lot of time together in the manner of a traditional extended family.
My toddler daughter stays at my in-laws' house twice a week, and so my actions in regards to BIL are relevant in my day-to-day life. I can't avoid my BIL but I do want to act in an appropriate manner.

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

You can consider his behavior wrong. No one is suggesting you endorse his actions.
Then you're basically following the advice you've been given.
But keep in mind that there are ALWAYS two sides to any story. Further, since you're not intimately involved in the situation, there may well be extenuating factors you aren't aware of. Consider that his brother and parents are likely better informed than you are.
But they are managing to function and socialize with him. Perhaps they recognize that while he may not be a role model for husbands and fathers everywhere that he's still a part of their lives and will be for the rest of his life. Perhaps they recognize that if there was ever a time for one's family to rally around and offer support and guidance, its when someone is going through a bitter divorce. Maybe, loving him as they do, they know he's capable of being a better person and figure that if they get more involved in his life they can help him straighten out.
Or maybe you're right and he's a worthless cad, unsuitable for human companionship. I don't know either of you so I have no way of knowing.
But if he was my brother, I'd want to think there was a chance he could straighten out.
The act in a way that will help maintain harmony in the family without putting yourself in harms way. Be cool but polite.

Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net

You cross the line into being judgemental when you try to affect others' behavior by your own. In other words, it's fine for you to choose not to ***ociate with him, or engage him in conversation, but when you try to Take a Stand and Show Him for the Weasel He Is, then you are being judgemental. So the key is to look at your behavior and ask yourself which camp it falls into.
Also, listen to yourself say "must we ignore terrible behavior." That phrase sort of ***umes that it is *your* reaction to the behavior that is somehow important or informative. The karmic wheel spins quite nicely on its own without your getting behind and pushing.
You can simply choose to quietly avoid him and minimize your interactions in public situations. You can choose not to invite him to functions you host. You don't have to explain or take a stand or anything.
The trickier bit, as you point out, is what to do when circumstances put you together with him. It's certainly quite reasonable to avoid him and minimize interactions with him. If he engages you, you can simply excuse yourself and leave. If he pushes it, then you (or your husband) can quietly and privately tell him firmly that you do not wish to speak to him. The worst case is if he puts you in a position where you would have to either speak to him or rebuff him publicly.
That is tricky not so much because you owe him politeness as it is that you owe it to your hosts to avoid making a scene at their function, if you can possibly help it.
For that reason, I would probably avoid an obvious cut and would try a more subtle way of distancing myself.
He may have earned your opprobrium, but if you elect to go to family functions to which he has been invited, you either have to be able to avoid making a scene or your have to refrain from going. Others will have to make their own decisions about his behavior and what they will or will not tolerate from him.
Best wishes, Ericka

kmd kristen.d...@yale.edu

I agree with you, Jackie. Your BIL is a part of your family, and you are a part of his. We all should be more reticent in our actions wrt our in-laws' family dynamics, but I think it is specious to argue or act as though our in-laws are not family.
There is such a thing as "no longer received in polite society." We are not obliged to continue to grant the privilege of our society to someone who has violated every one of our mores. In your circumstance, Jackie, I probably would refuse to attend any purely social gatherings at which the BIL was likely to be present.
I would, however, continue to attend church with him.
--
Kristen

kmd kristen.d...@yale.edu

[a completely redundant post] Please accept my apologies. I didn't see that my other post had shown up until after I sent this one.
--
Kristen

Gene Wirchenko ge...@mail.ocis.net

Extenuating circumstances for running out on ones wife and taking up with someone else? *Perhaps*, the first part is justified. Maybe, there was a dangerous situation, and the BIL acted to protect himself.
The second part was not necessary for this though.
[snip] OP has not mentioned divorce, just that the BIL ran out on his wife. And if there is one, who created the situation?
[snip] Yes. Now, think of the disharmony that the BIL has created.
Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net

But that is exactly the point--what is appropriate for the OP to do has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with the disharmony that the BIL has created. She gets to choose not to invite him to her functions, and she gets to choose to ***ociate with him as little as possible otherwise.
However, if circumstances throw them together, then the old saw "two wrongs don't make a right" comes into play. Just because he's been a jerk and has created disharmony does not excuse *her* creating disharmony if it's unavoidable. That doesn't mean she has to cozy up to him, but it does mean that she has to try to be as civilized as possible. And if it gets to the point that that is too difficult, then she starts turning down invitations to family events where he is also invited. This does force the hosts to choose between him and her, which is unfortunate, but that is reasonable if he has made things too awkward. She does not have to continue to put herself in an uncomfortable situation just to make nice. But his behavior does not give her a p*** on being responsible for the disharmony *her* actions could create.
You can't live your life never making any waves. Sometimes you have to. But you do have to consider when and where you make waves carefully, and in an ideal world, the OP would do so in such a way that only the BIL felt the impacts. This isn't a perfect world, and it may not be possible to do that. Sometimes you have to make some waves to maintain your integrity.
You just have to weigh the balance carefully, and I think that in most cases, situations like these can be handled adequately in a way that doesn't put a bunch of other people in uncomfortable public situations.
Best wishes, Ericka

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

I'll stand by my contention that there are always at least two sides to any story. In my experience, situations are seldom so black/white that there's not justification for a third party being somewhat skeptical of how either side presents the story.
What does it matter? Life goes on, and the man is still her husband's brother and his parent's son. Should he be banished forever? Nothing the OP said leads me to think they endorsed his actions, but rather that they are simply dealing with a difficult situation.
It's like being rained on at a picnic. You can argue over who was supposed to check the forecast or you can gather the food and get out of the rain. Nothing you can do will un-do the fact that you're wet. You simply have to deal with the situation you're in.
He didn't ask our advice, and thinking about what a scoundrel he is doesn't change the issue for the OP.

ZedBanty ZedBanty_mem...@newsguy.com

I've seen this "let's just take it from here" and "fix the problem, not the blame" sentiment used to attempt to quickly usher wronged friends, family, and ***ociates past some real violations and problems. Even repeated violations and problems. What you present is a false dilemma - one absolutely *can* pick up and move the picnic inside AND figure out how to make a rained-out picnic an unlikely problem in the future. Perhaps a different picnic-planner is in order.
There's a middle to this. Yes, we're only hearing one side of the story (although the OP's telling doesn't raise my BS attennae very much - would we hear from her BIL the ubiquitous "my wife doesn't understand me"??). Yes, its' not her place to try to punish her BIL via lost family relations.
However -
Sure it does. She clearly hasn't subscribed to a morals-blind view of her world. She has seen people hurt. She needs to consider that what she may want to see, as far as 'cut direct' may inappropriately propogate that hurt, but she needn't support or condone it by her actions and ***ociations.
ZedBanty

Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net

Absolutely. The key is that she retains the responsibility for her actions--BIL's behavior in no way alters that. So, refusing his overtures of friendliness is something that's pretty easy for her to take responsibility for, but the hurt caused to innocent family members by her making a scene at a family gathering may not be.
And, of course, there's a lot of grey area in the middle.
Family who are aware of the pain BIL has caused to the OP and yet continue to throw them together unnecessarily start to earn a little responsibility themselves. It's a complicated, constantly evolving dynamic. You just have to play it by ear, constantly keeping in mind that no one else's boorish behavior can ever excuse the same from you and that it's not your business to tell others where to draw the line either.
Best wishes, Ericka

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

But its not up to the OP to fix the BIL's marriage, p*** judgement on the BIL's actions, or tell his brother and parents what they should think of him. Her only role in the situation is to form her own opinion (which she's obviously done already) and get along with everyone else.
Given that BIL's family has opted not to banish him, she will inevitably find herself in his company at some family event. She can either use that opportunity to express her opinion of what a scoundrel he is or she can be polite and simply minimize her contact. Which one of those do you think will make the event more enjoyable for all present? Which one of those will help the family deal with the crisis and move on? What will be gained by her pouring salt on an open wound?
Neither has anyone else in this thread that I can see. If every word she says is true, I certainly can't condone what the BIL did. But I'm inclined to thnk that it would be be immoral to abandon a brother or a son. If BIL were my son or brother, I suspect we'd have strong words in private and then try to put on a good face for the rest of the family.
Who suggested she condone the BIL's actions?

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

Gene Wirchenko ge...@mail.ocis.net

Clearing a rockslide safely sometimes involves blasting down additional rock. (Better than the oldie about eggs and omelets.) I think this may well be one of those cases.
I think putting BIL in an uncomfortable situation might be a good idea. Sometimes, people are TOO polite for their own good.
I think we disagree only on degree. I certainly agree that one has to be careful in a situation like this. Not doing anything might not be the safest action.
Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net

I don't think the issue is over making BIL uncomfortable.
The issue is over making *others* uncomfortable in the OPs attempts to Teach BIL a Lesson.
I didn't say it was. I said that she has to be willing to take personal responsibility for her actions.
Most of us take responsibility for causing others grief on a pretty regular basis. I'm sure I cause my kids grief every day. The question is whether it's *appropriate* and *warranted*. Nothing BIL has done can absolve her responsibility to the rest of her family. No matter how boorish he has been, she doesn't get to be boorish to other innocents because of it. She may have to do things other family members don't like (e.g., refuse to attend family gatherings at which he is present if she can't guarantee civilized behavior on her part), but she doesn't get a free p*** on being rude (e.g., creating a scene at a family party because she's pissed off at him, no matter how well deserved).
Best wishes, Ericka

kmd kristen.d...@yale.edu

What about the middle ground? She doesn't have to say (even to herself) that she's staying away because she feels she can't control herself; that's pretty insulting to her. Why not an option in which she stays away as a means of refusing to grant her society to the cad?
--
Kristen

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

If she puts it that way, it sounds like she thinks an awful lot of her "society."

totot ...@atlanticcoast.invalid (Uncle Mandrake)

This touches on what I think is a key question regrarding marriage breakdowns: who's to blame? IMHO, the very question usually distorts real life. People change, circumstances change, and one day a man or woman wakes up to the fact that their marriage is now a disaster, yet neither spouse can be said to be at blame.
Once a marriage has failed, it's pretty tough, indeed, almost impossible, to rescue it: like a fallen souffle or curdled egg sauce to make a trivial comparison.
In such a situation, it is the better part of wisdom to split.
"But oh! what about the c-h-i-l-d-r-e-e-n?!?!" someone cries.
Kids have to learn that life isn't Disneyland. Unpleasant things happen. Better to be honest "your father and I are now very unhappy together so we're splitting" than to indulge in Harlequin-romance and Bride-magazine fantasies and continue a toxic family situation -- which imho is far more harmful to children than separation and/or divorce if the marriage has gone sour.
I'm not one for letting it all hang out, but there is a time and place for honesty (without crudity or excessive revelation of personal details).
--
Uncle Mandrake Victoria, BC, Canada [change "atlantic" to "pacific" and "invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

ZedBanty ZedBanty_mem...@newsguy.com

True.
Quite untrue.
True.
If you read the thread, I think reasonable folks are advocating the latter. ZedBanty

kmd kristen.d...@yale.edu

Not an "awful lot" -- I'd say that all it implies is that she has a healthy respect for herself. Certainly enough to refuse her society to someone who has violated her mores so flagrantly.
Again, this does not mean judging this man as irredeemable. There are ways in which she could reach out to him without tacitly condoning his outrageous behaviour. In church, for example.
--
Kristen

Userb3 use...@yahoo.com

Can you explain your position? Why and when is it up to the OP, you, or me to p*** judgement on someone else's behavior? Note that I draw a distinction between holding an opinion and p***ing judgement.

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