comparing private and public school costs
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Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29048-2002Apr10.html provides additional support for what I have frequently posted - that private school tuitions are rising MUCH faster than per-student expenditures in the public schools.
This article deals only with private schools in the DC area, but it notes nearly 100% tuition increases in the last 10 years.
We don't yet have the most recent numbers for the public schools, but from 1991 to 1999, the public school expenditure per student went up only around 33% ($5258 to $7013).
The print version of the Post included a sidebar table listing a variety of private school tuitions in the DC area. With the exception of one Catholic high school (which was charging around the same as the public schools expenditure), all were charging significantly more than the public spends.
lojbab
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lojbab loj...@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
"Gary Schnabl" badBad...@badBadger.com
If you're trying to convince someone, why did you pick some extraordinary cases? Come on, Bob! $15,000 to $20,000 is nowhere typical for private schools around here. Maybe $7000 at some of the few exclusive day, non-boarding high schools in metro D. BTW, Oakland County (one of the three counties of metro Detroit of 4 to 5 million population) claims to have the second highest per capita income nationwide.
The typical tuitions at the parochial elem and middle schools here are around $2400 (albeit higher in the 'burbs), and grants are available for hardship cases.
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Gary Schnabl (Southwest) Detroit 2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
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"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net
Hrm. Fairfax County claims to be the wealthiest county in the nation, but so does N***au County, Long Island.
I wonder how many other counties claim to be the 2nd wealthies?
Magi Remove all space cats to email.
"Gary Schnabl" badBad...@badBadger.com
Maybe Joni will come up with a listing of per capita incomes, by county.
Even Pontiac (with its extremely lousy public school system, based on student performance - almost as bad as Inkster) in Oakland County shouldn't bring down the average too much. New construction in Oakland Co. (outside of Pontiac) is $350K +. I see several listings in the Sunday paper over $800 K, and some of these are older houses.
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Gary Schnabl (Southwest) Detroit 2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
"Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message ...
http://www.lojban.org
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net
Fairfax County, new construction is $500K. Prince William County, new construction is $300K. These are single family homes.
Columbia, MD: $150K to $250K for a townhouse. Now Columbia is one of the most expensive parts of Howard County, MD because its a planned community.
I'd have to check with friends to see what Long Island's current is, though I know a 1 bedroom apartment rental appears to be about $1000 a month, which matches Fairfax County and Montgomery County, MD. Both counties are acknowledged as very wealthy areas.
Magi Remove all space cats to email.
"Alfred C Thompson II" a...@ACThompson.net
My dad lives on the end of Long Island. Empty lots in his town start at over $250,000. Affordable housing is a term used for anything under $1,000,000 and there is a serious shortage of "affordable housing." It's crazy. Average teacher salary in public schools is around $65,000. Principals are over $100,000. Still not enough to buy a house though. Rents in the of fseason are probably around $1000/month for small apartments. In the summer expect to pay that a week.
"Donna Metler" nospam_dmmet...@bellsouth.net
Private secondary schools in Memphis, TN, range from about $7,500/yr (for Parochial schools which have church subsidies) to about $15,000/yr, non-boarding. Elementary schools range from about $5,000/yr to $10,000/yr.
A 1 bedroom unsubsidized apt is about $500/month. Public school spending is listed at $8,000/yr, but doesn't account for elementary vs. secondary, or for the added costs of the district-run special ed schools, which actually take a large number of their students from the surrounding area (we have 4 self-contained schools which serve very specialized populations and have wonderful facilities and programs, but are very expensive. While this is included in per-student spending, students who come to these schools from out of district come with payment from their home district).
The new elementary school near my current school, which had ground broken recently is estimated to cost 14.2 Million to build, not counting land, but including the cost of demolishing and removing the very dead building now on the land.
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Donna DeVore Metler Music Integration/Orff Specialist Mother to Angel Brian Anthony, 01/01/02 (22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP syndrome) "Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29048-2002Apr10.html loj...@lojban.org
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net
I'm speaking mostly of N***au County and Western Suffolk. Nobody sane can afford to live on the Eastern part of Suffolk. Only people like Billy Joel can afford to live out there.
Certainly a TEACHER couldn't afford it.
Magi Alfred C Thompson II wrote: Remove all space cats to email.
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org
Did I say otherwise? The story I cited discussed only private schools in this area, except that it noted a national trend that private school tuitions had nearly doubled in the last 10 years (and since the last NCES tuition survey, from which most people quote average tuitions, is from 1993-4, a 100% increase would indeed be significant if it was national).
Apparently they go just as high in Michigan. I did generic web searches for secondary private schools in Michigan. I found the following: Cranbrook School, Bloomfield Hills Day school Tuition $15,490 - $18,890 (1-5, and 9-12 respectively) Leelanau School, Glen Arbor Day school tuition $13,125 I couldn't find a lot of schools, alas. CAPE lists no Michigan schools in its blue ribbon schools list.
Catholic schools - I did find Grand Rapids Catholic High School. They are nice enough to give detailed budget information: http://www.grcatholiccentral.com/cc/budget/budgetmaster.htm They list 2002-2003 tuition as around $4600. They also list the cost per student as being around $5600. This is lower than the Catholic high schools around here, but not a lot. It is lower than Grand Rapids public schools spends ($7592), but again not by a lot considering that they don't have the special ed kids to support. I also found Mercy High School, a Catholic Girls high school in Farmington Hills. They list 2002-3 tuition and fees at $7280, and note that in 2000-2001, when tuition was $6215, the actual cost per student was $8000.
This is higher than any of the 10 public school districts over 15,000 enrollment in Michigan.
Since I reported no tuitions for elementary and middle schools for Catholic schools even around here, this does not contest my data. There is no question that Catholic schools are cheaper, even around here, than public schools. But Catholic high schools are MUCH higher cost than elementaries, apparently even in Michigan, and non-Catholic schools are higher cost than Catholic schools. And as the two schools with budget information show, the tuition cost isn't all of the cost of operating the school.
More significantly, the two schools showing tuition in Michigan confirm a very rapid rise in tuition and cost per student in the last decade, with tuition at Grand Rapids roughly doubling in the last 10 years (cost per student only went up around 30%, but other news stories in the past have reported that the Catholic church is contributing less towards parochial school costs than in the past, expecting parents to take up the slack, thus explaining the 100% rise in tuition).
If the trend continues, there is considerable reason to doubt that the private high schools, even the Catholic ones, will be any bargain. You might continue to save money at the elementary schools for a while longer.
lojbab
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lojbab loj...@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
Joni Rathbun jrath...@orednet.org
$7000 is pretty typical for Catholic secondary schools in the places where I've been living - and those figures are from a couple years ago.
They've probably gone up some. These schools are pretty good and do serve a much more "elite" population than the one my school serves, but I wouldn't call them exclusive!
"Gary Schnabl" badBad...@badBadger.com
Granted, Oakland Co. has far more wealthy folks than much of the rest of the country. So does the D.C. area. $15,000 may be chump change for them.
Wayne Co. has far fewer such schools. The city of Detroit has 40% of its population.
But there's even a wealthy Wayne Co. public school system which shares a common campus in the affluent Plymouth, Salem, and Canton districts. There are about 5000 (I'm not sure of the number) well-heeled kids attending two adjacent high schools, and they commonly attend both as if it were a university. Now there's a third high on the way a bit further down the road.
Pretty good instruction, too. I'm sure their parents take an active interest in their schools besides paying for them. I rarely saw parents where I taught.
Detroit lost virtually its entire white population since the 1950s (1.85 million total in 1958 - possibly over 2 million in 1929 before the Crash).
Blacks are not usually Catholic, although black Mayors Archer and Young were both Catholic and attended Catholic schools. So RC schools in the city closed by the dozens. Many parishes also closed. The archdiocese built its first new school five years ago, its first in 30 years. But it wasn't in Wayne Co.
Milwaukee also experienced a similar fate for its parochial schools in the city. Tuition was very inexpensive during my youth. Eleven parishes recently closed in the inner city and were replaced by two, which were already standing. Their schools closed many years earlier. Alas, my elementary parochial (1-8) school and parish was one of them.
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Gary Schnabl (Southwest) Detroit 2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
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"P. Tierney" silviomo...@insightbb.com
I meant to post this instead. Sorry for the mail Joni.
The two Catholic high schools that I found who printed their tuition on their sites both cost $6100, plus fees. A few more may be a touch cheaper. Several non-Catholic private schools cost several thousand more, I'm told, but they don't put such info on their websites. Catholic grade schools are a bit cheaper, though I don't know how much so.
So, $6100 is the figure I found twice for Louisville, which is below-average on the cost of living index. The tuition for a year at the University of Louisville, by comparison, is $3446.
P. Tierney
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:35:32 -0400, Bob LeChevalier What's the damage for boarding school (9-12) these days?
B.
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luisaleg ...@yahoo.com (luis alegria)
San Francisco Catholic parochial elementary schools charge in the range of $ 2800 - $ 4500 (as of about 18 months ago). They benefit from having, in general, no costs for their property, being built on land belonging to the Archdiocese, and in general their buildings are quite old. Some of the cheaper ones may be subsidised by the Archdiocese, but by no means all of them. Capital improvements go mainly by the means of donations, but there is little enough of that.
Parochial high schools are more expensive. Typically they run to about 150% of the elementary schools.
You will not easily find information about tuitions at parochial schools in general, unless you take the trouble to conduct a phone survey.
Some other non-denominational private elementary schools are in the range of @ $6000-8000, which is more or less the per-pupil expenditure of the school district, depending on how you count it, but they have the added expense (which is definitely not trivial in San Franciso) of the costs of their land and buildings.
There are Catholic schools in San Francisco and elsewhere owned and operated by religious orders. These are not parochial schools, a very important distinction. They are typically more expensive, often much more so.
There are schools run by other religious denominations, including Jewish, Armenian and Orthodox schools.
There are of course a number of other private schools, typically costing from $12,000 to $20,000 per year, of the sort mentioned in the DC report.
As for performance of private vs public schools, I have estimated, by matching our test scores vs the California SAT9 tests, that my daughters private school ($7500) would rank in the top rung of the California public school league tables. This I ascribe mainly to the demographics of the school. I expect that this will hold true for most private schools in San Francisco.
Luis
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
I don't know what SF Catholic schools you are talking about, but they cost at least that when MY CHILDREN were in school - 10 years ago.
For Jr. High - my son attended St. Stephen's (cheap) and my daughter attended Convent of the Sacred Heart (expensive). When they graduated from SI, it cost around $6500 per year and that was 5 years ago (for my youngest). It's probably up to $10,000 now.
luisaleg ...@yahoo.com (luis alegria)
About 18 months ago I priced various schools when searching for a kindergarten, but I went a bit farther (looking ahead).
SI and Sacred Heart are expensive (CSH much more so) SI was running @ 9K last I checked. CSH was around 15K (for Kindergarten, mind you, I didn't bother asking about HS, but you can imagine).
For high schools am thinking rather Immaculate Conception, Mercy, etc.
They were at @6K at the time.
Elementary schools are definitely in the range I specified (or were there 18 months ago) - my sample was, in order of cost, St. Finn-Barr, St. Pauls, St. Johns, NDV (Notre Dame des Victoires, the most expensive at 4.5K).
Non-Catholic private schools are more expensive. Discovery Center was (and is, as of this moment) 7.5K, Hilldale somewhat less, the rest varied from 9K on up.
No doubt some of these costs have likely gone up since I checked.
Luis
luisaleg ...@yahoo.com (luis alegria)
I checked a couple of schools, and it looks like things have changed some.
Mercy was at almost 9K, all in.
If so, IC wouldn't be that far behind.
Amazing.
This is the teacher shortage at work ? What do you think ?
Luis
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
Not as bad as I thought.
Holy S**t!!!
Repeat after me: "You get what you pay for." (in this case, it's the truth) NVD is a feeder school to CHS. What's your aspiration? If you want CHS, then think twice about St. Finn-Barr and St. John's. I can't dis St. Paul's.... because that's my hubby's alma mater.
You need a personal "in" to get into St. Cecilia's or St. Brendan's, they are la-tee-da socially without paying beaucoup bucks and solidly on the Stanford track.
You won't be so shocked when you check into what Lick-Willerding (high school) is charging! It's probably the equivalent of a college tuition at this point.
:-) no doubt
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
It's not the teacher shortage that drives up cost.... it's the nun shortage (no salary - at least in the olden days). When my husband attended catholic school back in the Cave Days, entire families could attend elementary school for $2 (as many as 10 kids attended for two bucks)... then it went up to $3 - a 50% increase. He had to quit Riordan because his family couldn't afford to pay $15 tuition and an extra $5 for a materials fee.... per month ```````````````````````````````````` On 17 Apr 2002 14:55:26 -0700, luisaleg...@yahoo.com (luis alegria) wrote:
luisaleg ...@yahoo.com (luis alegria)
An Alumna ?
None of these, really. We went with Discovery Center (which is why I know the size of the check precisely), and, with luck, eventually, Lowell (***uming its still recognizable).
I understand St.Johns at least sends kids to SI and Lowell pretty much SOP.
St. Brendans, according to people we know who have gone there, isn't quite that la-tee-da, but they are picky about the Catholic thing. And they aren't THAT expensive, they are still parochials. Can't be worse than NDV, what ?
It is - @ 18-19K I believe. But thats not on the short list, and there are other schools in SF in the same category.
Luis
hru ...@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
.................
If this is the one I am thinking of, it is the ONLY school for the gifted in the state of Michigan. In fact, is there another academic school in the state?
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This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
"mst" ter...@attbi.com
They were averaging 13K when I checked last year.
The number of parochial schools has shrunk a bit in the last 10 years, too.
Star of the Sea and Presentation closed in the late 80s, and some of the others have merged to save on costs. I vaguely remember Cathedral and Sacred Heart being the first to do this. Part of the rationale was that going coed would attract more students, which makes sense because it was the all-girls schools who went under.
I remember when I went to Pres, I was shocked to find that the tuition cost more than a year at Berkeley. It seems that hasn't changed, at least. UC is still the best deal in the state.
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Teri **** Father, father, we don't need to escalate War is not the answer, for only love can conquer hate Marvin Gaye
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
Yeah. You can say that again! DH and I are SF State grads, my kids are UC grads.... I would have loved to send them to Stanford, but he was insistent from the git-go that they'd go to a "public" college/university to take advantage of our tax dollars at work. I certainly can't complain about the level of education they received.
Looking at it with the insight of a teacher, I don't think we needed to send them elsewhere (although my bragging rights would have been as high as the tuition).
;-)
s ...@pipeline.com (sf)
>>Apparently they go just as high in Michigan. I did generic web searches for >>secondary private schools in Michigan. I found the following: >>Cranbrook School, Bloomfield Hills >>Day school Tuition $15,490 - $18,890 (1-5, and 9-12 respectively) >If this is the one I am thinking of, it is the ONLY >school for the gifted in the state of Michigan. In >fact, is there another academic school in the state?
Oh, puleeze. Academic school? They gave IQ tests when I went there, but think about Michigan! They are just weeding out the riff-raff.
The only area where there's any concentration of money is the Detroit area. Nothing has changed in the last 50 years except there's less money around in and around Detroit. When I attended Kingswood, it seemed like a battle between Ford and Chevy in the parking lot. There wasn't a foreign car in sight.
Cranbrook is first and foremost an art academy. The rest of the schools are an afterthought. They still have boarders because there is still that portion of the population who wants children, but can't stand their progeny. There is another group who have children, but work in "foreign lands" without a good, local American School or live in an area of the US that their wealthy parents don't consider up to par academically.
"Gary Schnabl" badBad...@badBadger.com
Marquette University HS in Milwaukee issued IQ tests to its 8th grade prospects when I was in attendance in the late 1950s. My advisor mentioned when I was a sophomore that the median IQ of my freshman cl*** was 132, since some 75% or so of its 8th-grade applicants were culled out. Still, a few well-heeled sons (it's a school for boys) of its alumni got around the test, though.
A sometimes poster, Mark Peters, was also in my cl***. Perhaps he has something further to add. I considered it an academic school. All of its freshman and sophomores had to take Latin, no exceptions. I don't know if that was a good idea or not. It made my later study of Spanish, German, and Russian easier, I think.
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Gary Schnabl (Southwest) Detroit 2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
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