Punishing the whole class......
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"Teachermama" teachrm...@iwon.com
I am so angry!! Today at rainy day lunch recess, one of the children in my daughter's first/second grade combo cl*** wrote "F*** You" on a fellow student's desk. The teacher discovered this and called in the vice principal. They were unable to determine who did it, so he asked her what she wanted to do about it. She decided to keep the whole cl*** in the room on Monday for lunch (they'll eat in the room), then make them spend their entire lunch recess writing "I will use correct language." That means 1) that many innocent children will be punished. 2) that writing, which we want to encourage children to do and enjoy, will be used as a punishment, and 3) these children will have no break from 10:15 AM until 2:10 PM. I am so upset!!! As a parent---and as a teacher!! I'd really appreciate some feedback, folks.
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
Its hard to determine sometimes and unfortunately, sometimes the whole cl*** gets punished as a result. Maybe the other children know who did it and will come forward?
I hate it when this happens, but it does happen and sometimes the peer pressure is better than anything we could ever come up with as teachers. It happened today in the 5th period cl*** I was covering. All the kids know me, and I'm not a substitute. This is normally a very well behaved cl*** with good grades. But they just wouldn't settle down to read the chapter with guidance, and the WHOLE cl*** wound up with poor grades on the ***ignment because I was tired of raising my voice so I could be heard over them.
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
"Teachermama" teachrm...@iwon.com
I think that if the other kids knew, they would tell. There are only a couple of troublemakers in the group. But, even so, forcing little kids to write sentences for 45 minutes nonstop is not going to solve the problem.
"Everybody gets a poor grade on this ***ignment" is one thing---no lunch break at all is another. It may even be illegal to keep the kids for 4 hours without a break. Even if it's not, it's certainly cruel!!.
Baldric Bald...@australia.edu
Good point and a solution in some cases is to make the whole group suffer but not one that I ever agree with or would ever do. In all likelihood nobody saw the perpetrator commit this deed so the punishment is pointless - apart from making the teacher feel as if they have taken action.
There is also another point you neeed to address. Where I teach it is illegal not to give students a break after so many hours of work and I'd imagine that this is the case in your state.
I think you should definitely approach the teacher concerned about this and express your misgivings as either - one professional to another or - as a parent representing your child's rights.
She needs to know that she has now lost much credibility with her students for taking this action. No child ever sees this sort of action as fair or right.
Cheers Baldric
"Teachermama" teachrm...@iwon.com
I am very sure it is!
I talked to the teacher both as a parent and a fellow professional--but she feels that since she already told the cl*** what she was going to do she can't back down. And we're back to square one.
right.
Absolutely! And I think she will lose credibility with some of the parents, too. I'm at the point where I don't know what else I can do!!
"P. Tierney" fernh...@bellsouth.net
I agree with your reasoning at being upset on all there counts, especially the first two. It's overreaction, quite simply, and they can't punish the right person so they feel that they have to do *something* even if it doesn't make a bit of logical sense. Just plain silly.
P. Tierney
elques ...@aol.commitment (Miller Smith)
It goes against basic concepts of justice and Americanism to punish a group for the actions of a few in that group. No wonder so many children get an us against them attitude.
So what to do?
Your child was punished without due process. Make a formal complaint through your attorney to the Superintendent and the School Board. To punish your child without any evidence that your child did anything wrong is a violation of civil rights under color of authority. Make a federal case out of it. Seriously. Your child is looking to you to learn what justice is and if you don't show him this is wrong then what is he to learn then?
Let the teacher know, through a formal letter from your attorney, that if she does this again to your child, you will drag her face down through the court system and agitate other parents to make her life hell as a teacher.
Miller Smith 4525 Windsor Lane Bethesda, MD 20814 301-951-3959
elques ...@aol.commitment (Miller Smith)
Put a camera in hiding and wait for the next thing to happen. When something like the same happens, just go, "Oh well" and go on as if nothing happened.
Then when the kids are out, rewind and take a look. Then write up the littel bastard for doing the dirty deed. Let him lie all the way to the parent teacher admin confernce. Let him lie in the conference. Let the parents call you a liar.
Then play the tape.
Miller Smith 4525 Windsor Lane Bethesda, MD 20814 301-951-3959
mark_prob ...@hotmail.com (Mark Probert)
Do NOT do the following:
"jim horsman" jhors...@jovanet.com
so sad.
this just shows school benefits teachers and bureaucrats and not students and parents.
...
"jim horsman" jhors...@jovanet.com
EXCELLENT SUGGESTION the only improvement on this creative solution is to drag the teacher to court now!!
i bet a zillion dollars mr. smith is a great parent and or teacher
"M. Kilgore" ma...@nospammkilgore.com
Nah... just shows the need for the system to set up a "Bureau of **** You" to handle such problems. This needs to be pointed out at the next school board meeting so that a committee can be formed to come up with some preliminary cost figures that would allow parents to decide whether the costs of setting up a "Bureau of **** You" would be money well spent.
mark ...
kle ...@aol.com (Kleyle)
Quoted without edit: How does it just show the above?
Do students benefit from their education? Do students benefit from learning to read? Do students benefit from their math, science, social science, and writing studies? If not, we still may need schools. Many working parents benefit from knowing that their children are in a generally safe place, learning, socializing, and being taken care of. That's a lot of peace of mind. If so, then "it" doesn't show what the poster says "it" shows.
How does it show anything about how school benefits teachers and bureaucrats and not students and parents? How does the example (inlcuded below) show any benefit to teachers or to bureaucrats? What benefits are we referencing here?
This sort of thing happens from time to time, but not with most teachers, and not very regularly. How does it "just" show the one thing that someone wants to see?
I have done it. There I've said it. And I'm glad I said it. Do you hear me?
Glad!
When certain individual behaviors reach a point where cl*** control is jeopardized, I have to make certain decisions. For example, if we are going to walk to the park to play softball, just two or three children goofing off can cause me to cancel the expedition. Punishment? It seems that way. But the reality is that if I don't have control, it isn't safe for any of us to venture forth. I owe that to the children and the parents (whether they benefit or not). Alternatives? Send the rowdiest kids in the cl*** to the teacher next door? I will do that now and then for specific reasons, but that can get old for the neighbor. Send them to the administration? Probably not grand enough of a problem. Suspend them from cl*** or from school? That's over-reaction in most cases; they get more benefit (Whoops! There's that word again) from the alternative activity in cl***, because there are always alternatives. But If we can't go on the trip (my decision) because of rowdy behaviors (just some), everyone is effectively punished. It has to do with living and working in a community.
The frustrated teacher/parent who brought this tale to us might appreciate the general disaprobation bestowed upon the offending teacher by this newsgroup---and I agree---but that judgement is based solely on the story as told. More to the point, it only shows one bad practice and does not in any way just show what the poster (above) says it just shows.
In fact, it just shows what is written.
++++++++++++++++++++ Original post, for reference: As ever,
"Teachermama" teachrm...@iwon.com
There is a HUGE difference between cancelling a trip to the park and forcing a cl*** of 1st and 2nd graders to write "I will use correct language" for 40 minutes nonstop during their lunch recess. The first results in disappointment, but I ***ume educational activities continue on site. The second is cruel. The examples don't even correlate!
I was having a problem in my K-1 cl*** with the children not putting the tops back on the markers after they used them and the markers drying out. I finally took markers away from the whole cl***. "Punishment"? You could call it that, but it was a consequence that naturally attached to the problem. It would have been the same if I just didn't replace the markers as they dried out. But I didn't have the whole cl*** write "I will put the tops back on the markers" for 40 minutes. That was NOT a logical consequence!
If this teacher had said "Because the desk was written on, and nobody admits doing it, I will now collect all pencils after each use so they can't be used for anything but school work" I would not have objected. It's the particular punishment that I disagree with. What is it supposed to accomplish!?!
But the I do not disagree with this. I simply disagree with the particular punishment chosen in this case!!
fightingla ...@webtv.net (Mary Peterson)
I understand your anger and fusteration. constructive critism is more for kids so young, they waisted the whole day so cleaning up their mess isn't going to waist anymore time. Of course they'll have to be promted to try different methods in cleaning up their mess. Whats with the spy camera their1st and 2nd graders your talking about,you start treating a kid like a criminal he may verywell think he has to live up to your expectations. and leave off with the name calling or maybe your just leaving off steam. There are milder more supple ways in dealing with certain undesirable acts.disscusion is one leave it to the school board to come up with more---or the PTA:-/
"P. Tierney" fernh...@bellsouth.net
I agree but, correct me if I'm wrong, part of the theory behind this is that other students will encourage those who would misbehave to act more properly.
If so, then those goofing off on a walk to the park, in full view of many other students, have a slew of other students around them who are encouraged to pressure those students to stop. They also, I ***ume, know in advance that such consequences can arise.
The situation presented, however, is much different. It doesn't seem that they knew of the consequences up front. It seems very likely that the incident could have been done in isolation, with no one around to see it to discourage it. And then there is the "writing as punishment" issue, which is another problem.
Therefore, your situation isn't parallel, IMO. This situation reminds me more of an HS field trip to a play. There were about six schools there, and someone in the audience of 360 threw gum on the set of this professional production. Awful? Yes.
Response? After the show, someone came out and said that if an admission was not made, *all* of the *schools* would be banished from the theatre in the future. All of the schools, encomp***ing likely 4000 students because of the actions of one.
And of the 360 in the audience, probably 357 had no knowledge of who may have thrown the gum.
Unlike those goofing off on the way to the park, they had no possible knowledge of it, and therefore, no possible way to discourage it. Much like the desk-writing incident.
BTW, I don't think the theatre is following up on their threat. It was a knee-jerk reaction because they felt that they had to do something, even if that response was illogical.
P. Tierney
Sheila King she...@spamcop.net
: :so sad.
:this just shows school benefits teachers and bureaucrats and not students :and parents.
so sad. This just shows that individuals in today's society can generalize about an entire profession based on one story about what one teacher did on one day.
--
Sheila King http://www.thinkspot.net/sheila/ http://www.k12groups.org/
da ...@twcny.rr.com (Lynn Davis)
Greetings, I'm not an advocate of punishing the group for the behavior of one individual. A little "creative investigation" by the Vice Principal probably would have either solved the issue -- or made the impression on enough of the students that this was unacceptable behavior. This actually sounds like an administrative screw-up, with the VP unable, or unwilling, to actually handle the situation -- then throwing the problem back to the teacher. Remember that the teacher: A good VP would have found a way to handle the problem -- NOT volleyed it back to the teacher.
I really don't think this "problem" deserves the parent getting their own "lawyer" and "making a federal case out of it." The reality of the situation is that some kids got blamed for something they didn't do (which has happened to all of us - life isn't fair) and had to move a pencil around on some paper for 40 minutes. No one got hurt, the kids weren't traumatized, and a point about inappropriate behavior was made. There is certainly no lawsuit material here -- although, I suppose, you could give a lawyer a couple of thousand dollars to find that out.
If you are still upset about this situation -- express your concerns to the Vice Principal. From your explanation the problem occured because the VP didn't complete his responsibilities -- that of handling the discipline problem.
Lynn Davis **************************** In article <hf5E6.112$58.8...@eagle.america.net>, "Teachermama" ************************************************************ Mr. Lynn Davis da...@twcny.rr.com DavisL...@aol.com Science Teacher, Camillus Middle School Science Curriculum Coordinator West Genesee School District, Camillus, NY 13031 West Genesee Teachers' ***ociation Webmaster http://www.wgta.net WGTA Secretary and Newsletter Editor ************************************************************
elques ...@aol.commentary (Miller T. Smith)
Of course do the above AND demand that your child be transfered out of a "bad teacher's" cl*** and tell everyone in the admin path that the teacher is a "liability risk" for doing what she did to your child.
Miller Smith 4524 Windsor Lane Bethesda, MD 20814 301-951-3959
elques ...@aol.commentary (Miller T. Smith)
That spy camera has saved many a teacher's rear end when a charge was made against them. And that camera has proven that a "good" student who would "never lie" is a liar supreme.
Always let them lie. Hold back the taped evidence until the lie is repeated many many times and allow the parents to repeat the lie for their child and better yet get the parent to say you are picking on their child and you are the liar. THEN put a copy of the tape on the table in front of everybody.
The looks on their faces are priceless.
Miller Smith 4524 Windsor Lane Bethesda, MD 20814 301-951-3959
elques ...@aol.commentary (Miller T. Smith)
Not a parent. Biology has ruled against me on that.
A p***able teacher. No one beat down my door to be taught by me.
Miller Smith 4524 Windsor Lane Bethesda, MD 20814 301-951-3959
kle ...@aol.com (Kleyle)
The children did get to eat? Do they have 20 minutes to eat and 40 minutes to play? At our school it's 20/20. Did the children get to use the restroom? I should think so! Did they actually sit and write for 40 minutes during lunch recess? You were there. Not I.
Except that both punishments affect the whole group when it was only an individual or a small group that was misbehaving. So I think "...The examples don't even correlate!..." is going a bit too far. They do in one significant aspect which is, you will note, the title of the thread.
This is a very good example of what teachers do all of the time. We often build aspects of our programs around the group, not just the individual. It can be seen as punishment. To my mind, it's more a question of probability.
So the objection to whole group punishments for individual or small group behaviors seems to have vanished. Good. Your two remaining objections seem to be writing standards and children not having a break. These are important issues.
Let's look at writing. I agree that writing Bart Simpson standards is less than effective.
But what do we think of students writing letters of apology? When my students are too loud in the hallway, for instance, I have them write a letter of apology to the teachers and cl***es that may have been affected. They need to learn to write various types of letters anyway, so writing letters of apology is authentic writing. If a child believes that he or she is not guilty of the particular crime, and that will come up, I ask them to apologize for the cl*** in general just as I would if someone popped a head out the door. Am I misusing writing, turning off another generation of potential writers? If so, I should also confess that I ask them to write five paragraph essays about British North America. Is that punishment to a fifth grader? Probably seems like it. Would you agree that some writing as punishment is effective?
Which leaves us with the issue of the children having breaks. I agree that young children need to stretch their legs and take a break. Your story does not tell us if the students are fairly active in their regular cl***room routine. I would hope that first and second graders would be active within the walls of their cl***room. One does not need to go outside to have some exercise and movement. The children may not realize that they are getting exercise and breaks in the same way that they would miss not going specifically to recess, but they may be getting exercise, movement, and breaks. It would be a pretty neat---if pointless---trick if the teacher could actually get them to sit still for four hours. I find it unlikely, but I wasn't there.
As ever,
"Magi D. Shepley" ma...@catsincyberspace.net
We have teachers that ***ign lunch detention in our school, which kind of resembles what you're talking about. But, not usually for a whole cl***.
Magi Remove all Space Cats to Email.
kle ...@aol.com (Kleyle)
Patrick, I addressed most of this in another post, just filed.
I know that that is often the thinking. In my case, no. It is, for me, simply a matter of control. If I can't control the behaviors, then it isn't safe, and I won't go or I'll turn around. As I have a track record, there is an implied threat and there is probably some peer pressure. But that isn't the main point.
I was address the punishing the whole group idea, as in the title of the thread. It seems to me to be connected though both you and the original poster don't see it. I may be wrong, though I don't see how.
As ever,
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