Social pressures and education
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hru ...@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
I suggest that you read the column by Bob Herbert in Thursday's _New York Times_. It IS what is happening in too many places. Bluntly, peer pressure is actively keeping blacks from being educated, even if they would like to be. It even extends to social interactions outside the schools.
However many strongly educated people they can produce, it will be necessary to get the ones willing and able to learn not just out of the anti-intellectual schools, but out of the entire community. And I am not convinced that this is confined to the black community; it is at least very difficult to get a real education if there is too much community pressure against it. As for those who preach "diversity", we have nothing to gain by including in our colleges and professional schools those who consider education to be not only unimportant but even undesirable.
While this piece refers to the black community, the recent articles in this newsgroup about Columbine are somewhat similar. Learning is incompatible with peer group and other social pressure.
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This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Deptartment of Statistics, Purdue University hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Alan Lichtenstein alichtenst...@erols.com
I am forced to agree with Herman's implied ***ertion that whether or not one learns is due to the social values that have been inculcated in that individual. I also agree that peer pressure serves to reinforce cultural goals of the peer group or the sub-culture, if you choose. And I also agree that the values of a particular sub-culture may indeed be in conflict with those values being promoted by the larger culture and its agent, the school.
But, if you accept that view, Herman, then you are ***erting that the primacy for effective learning lies NOT with the school, but with the individual and the value system inclucated in that individual. Thus, if you so ***ert, then the only factor which can be attributed to the school is whether or not the school provides the instructional service.
Be that the case, then the issue of vouchers( school choice ) becomes a strawman and a smokescreen. As you have advocated vouchers, it would appear, by your own admissions, that these are unnecessary in the absence of appropriate values.
Herman, it sure does look like you put your foot in your Libertarian mouth.
Alan
hru ...@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
I suggest you read the other posts, and especially Bob Herbert"s article. He points out that it is even difficult for an adult, who believes in learning, to cope with a social situation which does not. For a child, it is an almost impossible job if the ***ociation is forced, and it can be difficult even if not.
Thus, if The instructional services provided by the school are greatly affected by the quality and attitude of the student body. Even if he can overcome peer pressure, a child who wants to learn is not going to get much, if anything, from a cl*** full of those who are reluctantly there, and not cooperating. Read it again. The schools are more social than educational now, and even for those who want to learn, wanting to be liked by their peers can be overwhelming.
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This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Deptartment of Statistics, Purdue University hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Alan Lichtenstein alichtenst...@erols.com
I happened to have read the article. What you are attempting to do is spin your way out of a dilemma that you got yourself into. If one's personal value system has been sufficiently inclucated, such individuals will seek a peer group that claims similar values. IOW, one chooses one's friends. One joins a peer group not by force, but because one recognizes that group as expressive of one's values. Your logic on this point is faulty.
If you mean the peer group and its sub-culture values if those sub-culture values are in conflict with those of the society at large, then yes. But should that be the case, then that does not mean that the school has not been providing, or has not been providing in a satisfactory manner the instructional service. It merely means that the individual has failed to use those services to good end.
Even if he can overcome peer pressure, a child who Agreed. Your statement above is perhaps the best reason for homogeneous grouping.
Despite the attempts of those who follow the Social-Emotional Learning school of thought, they have NOT been completely successful in moving the primacy of the school from aquisition of knowledge to "emotional growth. Given the indoctrination of prospective teachers( as evidenced by a great deal of feel-good fuzzy thinking which we see in posts ), that may eventually come about. But at this time and place, it is NOT evident, and NOT generally accepted. Your ***ertion is faulty and a peer attempt to spin the dilemma you got yourself into by placing your Libertarian Foot in your Libertarian mouth.
Alan
hru ...@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
I suggest you read the article again. It is difficult for an adult who has the value system. It is impossible for the child who is thrown into a juvenile peer group which is in effect a gang unless at least adults can protect him both physically and verbally from the mob. Most people want to be liked, and if essentially everyone around considers a particular attitude to be abominable, how is a child going to withstand this? Also, the "official" educationist doctrine is that those of the same age are automatically the peer group. Most in the profession, especially the administrators, put pressure on children to conform with their peer group. This is opposition to education.
IOW, one chooses Possibly when you went to school, this was the case with your schoolmates. For the one whose schoolmates are other, it is necessary for the educational system to provide the separation if requested by the child or parents.
It the students in a cl*** are opposed to a child learning, that child needs the opportunity to leave forthwith. The public schools are in many cases deadly.
Not until we eliminate the schools of education and ALL mention of those of the same age as the peer group. At this time, it might even be well to go to mainly electronic cl***es. But in any case, it is often the case that a child must not be subject to "peer pressure", and this requires very strong measures, including almost immediate removal to a different type of educational environment.
But at this time and place, it is NOT No libertarian would be willing to let a member of any government have any say on where his children can be educated. This includes financial pressure.
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This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Deptartment of Statistics, Purdue University hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Alan Lichtenstein alichtenst...@erols.com
( previous post snipped-follow thread ) It will say nothing more than I already know. Besides, the article says nothing about YOUR dilemma.
It is difficult for Wrong. Peer groups are entered into by free will. If an adult accepts not the values of a particular peer group, then said adult will NOT join, hence, the negative values will NOT conflict with those which have been inclucated. The same is true for children. People choose their friends. They are not forced to join a particular peer group.
It is impossible for Wrong. Membership in a peer group is by individual choice. Should a child see negative peer groups with negative values, all the child need do is walk away. ***uming the child has had proper values inclucated.
If that was not the case, then indeed, the values of the peer group may be attractive as will the benefits of membership.
But remember, Herman, you ***erted at the onset that the child had had the proper values inclucated. Thus, all the child need do is 'walk away.' Or, are you ***erting that there are NO members of Black communities that have values to which a child may have common bond?
Most people want True, and there are certainly peers who share the child's positive values. It is that peer group that the child will seek, avoiding the negative peer group.
Wrong. Those that share the view of social promotion based on chronological age are those who advocate the social-emotional learning school of education. Those, while many are found in the hierarchy of teacher training institutions, and do indeed damage as they indoctrinate prospective teachers, there are still many teachers who see through this charade. At least for the time being. And the SEL school does not care about peer group. Only about the child's self-esteem.
Most in the You make a sweeping generalization. You of course have evidence to support your ***ertion? I doubt it. In nearly ten years, you have never once responded to a challenge that you provide evidence. Likely this will be no different.
And for the record, this is one 'administrator' who does not share those views.
So much for your personal beliefs which you post as fact.
Wrong. It has always been the case from time immemorial. It's human nature.
For the one whose schoolmates are other, it is We have already agreed that homogeneous grouping is good. There is no need to revisit arguements which address themselves to that point.
Wrong. The nature of the instructional services are proscribed by The State. The school has a legal obligation to teach what it told.
Again, Herman, we have already agreed that homogeneous grouping is beneficial. But such grouping will do little to influence peer pressure, save if the members of such a group share the same values.
Which, I do stipulate, will likely be the same.
Again, you continue to ***ert the erroneous statement that a peer group is age dependent. It is not. It is more succinctly, value dependent.
At Everyone is subject to peer pressure of some sort. It cannot be eliminated. The only thing is that the peer group should share the values of the m*** society, and not of a sub-culture.
I am glad to see that you Libertarians advocate the principle of 'paying for the priviledge.' Alan
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