DS can't seem to
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"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
connect his consequences to his actions. He's 4yo. I'm hoping it's not something he inherited from my mom, who has a complete lack of insight.
It's affected my relationship with her, because she can't seem to understand the horrible things she tells me affects how I feel about our relationship.
This deficiency has prevented her from gaining any wisdom in her senior years and she makes the same mistakes over and over. Even when she realizes she's made a mistake in one situation, she cannot seem to apply that knowledge to other similar situations.
An example of DS: every time he hits DD, we give him a time out. He hates time outs. They make him very upset. He understands it's a punishment, yet he cannot seem to ***ociate the time out with his transgression. He just knows he's being punished, but he doesn't know why. And yes, we are extremely consistent with it. So, I wonder what I can do to help DS. His verbal skills need some help, but his teacher thinks he's right on track. I can't seem to get into his head, though. If I ask him why he doesn't like something, he'll answer because he doesn't like it.
Ericka Kammerer e...@comcast.net
Are you really sure he doesn't understand why he's being put in time out? Or is it just that he knows, but doesn't have the impulse control to stop himself from doing something, even when he knows he's not supposed to do it? (And saying "because" when asked why is downright common at this age.) As far as helping, you might try some books specifically geared to help with that sort of thing. Maybe something like these?
http://www.freespirit.com/catalog/item_detail.cfm?ITEM_ID=369&CAT_ID=11 (I haven't tried them personally.) Best wishes, Ericka
"Nikki" kavan...@iw.net
I think some of it is age typical. They just want what they want and so either refuse to listen or lack the necessary impulse control to curb their reactions. Luke is 4yo. We had a blow out last night at supper because he fully admitted he couldn't eat all his mac and cheese but he was determined that it was because it was such a *puny* portion and if he could only have more he'd be able to eat it all. I'd say eat all that and you can have more. 'WAH - but I can't eat ALLL that.' <sigh> I hold Luke's hands. That works better then time out IMO because it is immediate and he ***ociates what he did as the source of the problem. I'm finding it frustrating with a 4yo though. It was much easier when he (and Hunter) were younger. It is harder now because I am not on top of them all the time and so can't catch every incident, accept for me. He has entirely quit trying to hit me, or even fake it. He hates having his hands held much worse then time out. Hunter has started hitting too, probably because Luke is bigger now. It is a problem suddenly! I also work at telling them to use their words. They do and then the other trick is to get them to listen to the person using the words. If Hunter is pestering Luke and Luke says stop it three times and Hunter doesn't listen, there isn't much left to do but hit him.
>He just knows he's being punished, but he doesn't Do you have him say it back to you? Will he/can he do that? If he can't say it show him a way to demonstrate it. I taught Hunter to stomp his foot and say "I'm upset" because he couldn't really say much of anything and language wise he still can't share his thoughts much and he's 6yo. He used that phrase for lots of things and did replace his hitting (I held his hands too) with that phrase because he new if I heard it I'd jump right up and try to help him. Maybe instead of saying what he did he could go over and gently touch his sister on the spot he hit her and say 'I'm sorry' if he will. If saying that is hard for him I'd be satisfied with the gentle touch for a bit.
So, I I still can't get into Hunter's head the way you are talking about. I do work on it because he needs to improve that skill but I don't when he's been inappropriate or if he's angry. It leads to so much frustration for everyone that the 'teaching moment' is lost forever. If you think you know, give him the words by saying it. "I know you feel xyz." If I don't know I just say "I know you are upset. You can do (xyz appropriate thing) when you are upset like that."
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Nikki Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 EDD 4/06
"Sue" sburke9...@wideopenwest.com
What are some of your opinions as to why he hits his sister? That information will help me to give a better answer to your question.
Sue (mom to three girls) ...
enigma eni...@empire.net
has he been evaluated for learning disabilities?
Boo also has/had the same problem with connecting the time out with the action (he's somewhat autistic). what we do now is have him tell us why he's in time out before we let him out of it (his time out is sitting in his old high chair (no tray) in the middle of the dining room so he can't reach anything to play with).
one thing i've found though is that a time out is NOT going to help him learn to control his hands. he doesn't hit, per se, but he waves his hands around & sometimes makes contact with people/animals. i can deal with hand flapping, but he really needs to stay out of my (& the animals) face... so if your son is hitting on purpose, your problem should be solvable by time outs & having him tell you what he did wrong & what he needs to do instead. he *can* do this even though his verbal ability is poor. you just need to adjust your expectation of explaination to his current vocabulary.
now, your mom i can't really help with... is it possible that she's also autistic spectrum & just doesn't "get" social skills?
lee
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war is peace freedom is slavery ignorance is strength 1984-George Orwell
an ...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
You could try non-punishment methods:
-- ignore DS and give lots of sympathy to DD for having been hit.
-- active listening: "DS, I can see that you're really angry.
You believe you have a right to have DD stay farther away from you than she was."
-- alternatives: "DS, what is an appropriate way you could express your anger in this situation instead of hitting?"
-- direct attempt to elicit empathy: "DS, look at DD.
What just happened to her? How do you think she feels right now?" (may be unlikely to work without first doing active listening, waiting for DS to calm down, and/or addressing the cause of his anger.)
-- talking about virtues: "DS, what virtue is needed in this situation?" "Self-control, DS!" If he ever gets angry and doesn't hit, you can praise him for developing "***ertiveness" and "self-control" and tell him that he's getting better and better at "self-control".
-- talking about rights: have family meetings and discuss what the rules are. Let the children have some input into the rules and into what happens when the rules are broken. Let DS think about what it would feel like if there were no rule against hitting.
(I.e. let him see that he benefits from such a rule, too.) When DS gets angry, discuss with him whether his anger is justified, i.e. whether the other person had broken a rule, and if so, what the appropriate consequence should have been (i.e. not hitting but something else).
-- make sure DD isn't allowed to get away with annoying DS in appropriate or unbearable ways.
Listen to DS when he's ***ertive rather than aggressive, and make sure the rules are designed to give him the protection he needs.
If you use time-out, here are some ideas:
-- At a calm time, discuss with DS why time-outs are being used for hitting. Ask him how he thinks you should teach him not to hit. Get him on your side, working with you to use time-outs to teach him not to hit. If he has other suggestions instead of time-out, consider using his suggestions, let him see that you're seriously considering them, and maybe actually use them.
Some kids will suggest harsher punishments; I would avoid overly harsh punishments even if the child suggested them.
-- make the time-out short
-- at the beginning of time-out, ask him questions to get him to make the connection: "What just happened?
What did you just do? What's the rule? What happens after someone hits someone?"
-- at the end of time-out, use re-integration techniques (the "Spring" season in my article "The Seasons of Discipline" on my website http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html These could be: saying "you can come out of time-out when you're ready to play according to the rules"; requiring him to apologize; requiring him to do something nice for his sister; requiring him to hand her the toy they were fighting over; asking him why he was in time-out; asking him to promise not to hit; asking him to list 2 appropriate ways he could have expressed his anger instead of hitting; asking him to role-play an appropriate expression of anger, etc.
These are all just suggestions.
Are you sure he doesn't connect the time-out with the hitting? Maybe the reason he hates time-out so much is that he feels it's a criticism of him and means that he's bad. Maybe the reason he still hits is that punishment is not a very effective way to change behaviour: it can work to reduce hitting in one or two ways, mostly short-term, but at the same time it also works to increase hitting in 3 or 4 ways, largely long-term: for example, it demonstrates for him how to use punishment to try to control others, so when DD does something he doesn't like, he's apt to imitate you and use a punishment; hitting may be the only punishment available to him or the one he's most likely to think of on the spur of the moment.
If you want him to use some other method than punishment, maybe you need to demonstrate the use of that method by using it yourself in real situations as well as telling him how.
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Cathy Woodgold http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html We are all Iraqis now.
an ...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
That's good. It's good to catch them before they get upset enough to hit. If you active-listen, they learn the words to express their feelings, and they feel they're being listened to so they're less likely to over-react.
If a kid has been doing small-muscle activity for a while, you can suggest to them that maybe they feel like running around for a bit before continuing. Eventually they may learn to notice a gradual buildup of frustration or a need for a break and go and run around on their own, before they get frustrated enough to start hitting.
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Cathy Woodgold http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html We are all Iraqis now.
"dejablues" deja.bl...@gmail.com
Well, let's leave your mother out of this for the time being.
That all sounds pretty typical of 4-yr-olds, but...
Maybe time-outs make him *so* upset that what he did immediately prior to it (hitting his sister) are quickly forgotten. If it doesn't work, why keep repeating the same technique?
In theory, time-outs aren't supposed to be a punishment. A time-out is supposed to remove the child from a volatile situation and allow him/her to calm down and be able to come back and listen to you explain what he did wrong and what he can do better next time. You might need to coach him , "You had to sit on the steps because you hit your sister. You are not allowed to hit your sister, even if she makes you mad, because it hurts her." Does your son understand the concept of "hurt", ie: he stubs his toe, it hurts? Explain that his sister hurts, also.
IMO, time-outs are a way for a child to get extra attention from a parent, which is exactly what they want, and why they are so tricky to implement.
When your son hits his sister, and you give him the time-out, who's getting the attention? He is.
Little sister is then left by the wayside. Using time-outs frequently will dilute the effect.
As a parent of three boys, I can tell you that 99.00% of the hitting that they do is an attempt to get the attention of a parent, and to see who's side you'll take. It may seem harsh, but accepting some level of hitting, that you will ignore (until it's life-threatening) might be the answer. Soon enough the younger sibling will fight back, or the older sibling will realize that Mommy won't rush to the scene, and the hitting will stop.Harsh again, I know, but I've lived through it.
The other 1% is due to frustration, just due to their stage of development, and will get better when their expressive language skills improve.
I must say that time-outs didn't work for my children, so we abandoned the idea early on.
Good luck.
And yes, we are
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
No. As far as I can tell, he is doing fine in school.
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
I only put her in there for background, like maybe he is taking after her.
Well, we also take away toys and other things, but timeouts are used when there is nothing convenient to take away or for hitting, as it takes DS away from DD. He collects stars, like an allowance that he can trade in for trips to his favorite restaurant or some such thing. It started out as an incentive for him to not hit his sister at daycare (which surprisingly worked), but it has evolved into a non-monetary allowance, but those get taken away for hitting, too, so it's a double whammy. We don't spank.
I know the theory, but I think of time-out as the traditional stand in the corner, just new name.
I agree.
It may seem harsh, but accepting some level of hitting, I cannot do this. Hitting is unacceptable, IMO.
This is what I am hoping.
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
He's jealous. My question isn't really about hitting. That's just an example. It's about connecting his actions with the consequences.
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
I always make him say he's sorry with the appropriate tone of voice before he is let out of time-out.
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
Thanks. I'm glad he's normal for saying "because." I'm not absolutely sure he doesn't understand. Like someone else said, it might be that he is so upset about the time out that he forgot what he did to deserve it. Also, some incentives we've used for him in the past did work and I've spent an entire day working intensively on him hitting me and the hitting pretty much stopped. I just got frustrated after an entire day yesterday of removing priveleges, time-outs, etc. Seeing DS upset about each punishment and being so focused on the punishment that if I asked him anything about what he had just done, he can't get it. If I tell him what he did, he just says he won't do it again, even if it means he'll do it again in 2 seconds.
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
Thanks. My mom's social skills are very poor. I don't know if she has autistic spectrum, I've been told by a doctor (not her doctor, but a casual observer), that she may have a personality disorder. That, I fully believe.
Mental illness of all sorts runs in my family and I am scared to death that my kids might inherit it. That really colors my vision, I know. I don't want to borrow trouble, but I want to get help early, rather than late, if I need it. Most of the time, the mental illnesses show up in late teens/early adulthood and is triggered by stress. I wonder, though, if any signs of it showed in childhood and could have been helped.
"toypup" toy...@sbcglobal.net
Thanks, but we are not talking right now. She doesn't understand the nuances of English and she twists everything I say, no matter how neutral, into something negative. That is just because she has a beef against me right now.
That is good, but I find it hard to do. Also, I wonder if it would help in this situation, since DS is hitting out of jealousy. Wouldn't that just make him more jealous?
He doesn't really hit out of anger at DD. DD is usually minding her own business. I can't see what she could have done to make him angry other than her mere existence.
Like I said, she is usually minding her own business.
Good. I'll try this.
Very good. I will try all that.
Yes, that could be. He is very sensitive to criticism.
Like I said, she is minding her own business, so I don't think he's punishing her for anything she did to him. He does put her in time out, sometimes. She goes, because she does not think it's a punishment, and he gets a kick out of seeing her do what he says.
What method might that be?
"Sue" sburke9...@wideopenwest.com
Sure it is. It's about him still being too little to remember the consequences of each thing that he does but shouldn't. You might have to tell him what he can do and how to get along before he actually puts it together. Removing him everytime he hits is or being consistent in every disipline that you have will help. It's tedious to us, but at 4 you really are expecting too much from him. I wouldn't expect a 4-year-old to be able to control himself all the time at this point. Heck, my 12, 10, and 8-year-olds still hit each other. They are still learning how to control themselves. With jealous siblings, you will might need to spend more one on one time with your son and teach him how to act when he is upset with his sister.
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Sue (mom to three girls)
"Sue" sburke9...@wideopenwest.com
I don't think at 4 years old, apologies mean much to them. You have to teach them how to interact and get along. Catch him being good with his sister or sharing with his sister. He may be getting too much negative attention and reacting upon that.
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Sue (mom to three girls)
Rosalie B. gmbeas...@mindspring.com
>I only put her in there for background, like maybe he is taking after her.
Things that I did or things that my mom did that I found unacceptable or irritating made me more sensitive than needed when I perceived those behaviors in my children and I know that my children have found the same. Family history is a bitch.
For instance I was told that I was older and should never hit my little sister and in part, this was because my mom's little brother died when she was 7, and she always felt the lack of siblings and had somewhat unrealistic expectations of sibling interaction, probably based on reading "Little Women" and other similar books.
My dd#2 was extremely competitive, but when she was little she wasn't able to control her emotions to be a 'good loser', and would cry or behave in non-productive ways. This made it hard for her - she could psych herself out of doing well just as easily as the reverse..
When she saw these same characteristics in her son (being competitive, not being able to control his emotions), she was horrified, plus her spouse was telling the child that boys didn't cry. So it's good that you indicate why you are so concerned, and even if we can't diagnose your mom herself, we can re***ure you that it is unlikely to be something inherited.
You might give him something to hit (like a pillow) when he gets frustrated.
Well referring to the scenario above where my mom told me that I must never hit my little sister - what eventually happened was that my sister realized that she was immune, and would nag and pick until I lost my temper and hit her, and then she'd run crying to my mom (she hit me), and I would be punished. She would throw things at me -
fortunately the things she threw were ill chosen to hurt (I remember her trying to throw a coat hanger once), and her coordination wasn't that good. My mom happened to overhear this whole thing (we were older then than your two are although I'm not sure exactly how much older), and decided that if one of us hit the other, we would both be punished. I found this fair, and I did the same with my kids. Most of the time it takes two.
grandma Rosalie
enigma eni...@empire.net
some do. children can be diagnosed with depression, OCD, bipolar, etc. sometimes ASD looks like bipolar.
i have a friend whose younger son was diagnosed with depression at 2.5 years & started play therapy... so i know that childhood depression exists & that it's difficult to live with (the family had a history of depression so they were looking for it. depression in the very young is rather difficult to see otherwise). knowing the family, if the child had not been DXd so young, he most likely would NOT have survived his teens (he's 19 now).
i wouldn't go crazy looking for "symptoms" but i would voice any doubts i had to the pediatrician & ask for a referral if his behavior seems to warrant it. even if it's just to help *you* with ideas on how to handle his behaviors, it might be worth it. i'm not a fan of labelling kids (which is why i don't have an "official" DX for my son. he's ASD/dispraxic, but not enough to need a label to get ***istance at this point) but sometimes it is needed to get services.
lee
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war is peace freedom is slavery ignorance is strength 1984-George Orwell
Chookie ehreben...@fowlspambegone.com.au
I think that's a 4yo thing -- they aren't really very good with 'why' questoins and are still unable to see things from another person's persective. DS1, who is 4 1/2, gets a time-out in the bathroom for socially unacceptable behaviour. When I let him out, I give him a cuddle and say, "You mustn't [do XYZ]" -- I don't try to get him to tell me what he did wrong as it seems to make him focus on himself and his woes.
DS1 also doesn't like things because he doesn't like them. Perhaps they don't have the vocabulary to explain exactly what they mean. Sometimes DS1 gives me a clue, eg he didn't like some of his music lessons because they had a dinosaur theme. He told me that he didn't like his music lessons because they hurt his ears, so I was able to ask, "You don't like doing the loud bits?" and get an affirmative. I had originally thought that he found the dinosaurs scary.
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Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is nothing worth being eager or vigorous about." Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.
enigma eni...@empire.net
ok, i'll admit i really need help with explaining this concept to Boo. he does NOT understand "hurt". he has inherited my pain tolerance (which is basicly, i don't feel it. if i do, then something is *seriously* wrong. i've broken by back twice without knowing. i have floating bone chips in my spine).
so, how *do* you explain it? he has fallen & scraped knees, like most kids, but if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't phase him.
if he sees it bleeding he'll get upset just because there's blood.
lee
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war is peace freedom is slavery ignorance is strength 1984-George Orwell
"Nikki" kavan...@iw.net
Hunter wouldn't say it because of language problems - that is why I mentioned that.
I have my kids say "I'm sorry" too. Both can do it now. I don't for one minute think they are really sorry though unless they say it spontaneously before I've even intervened. They do that when they have accidently hurt the other, physically or just their feelings.
I guess I'm trying to say that saying sorry is a good thing but it doesn't mean he understands or has any intention of changing his behavior. Words are easy to come by :-)
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Nikki Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 EDD 4/06
Chookie ehreben...@fowlspambegone.com.au
That follows logically from the way you are using time-outs.
In my house, time-out is actually banishment for socially unacceptable behaviour (particularly hitting), though I can't actually remember the last time DS1 was punished in this way or the reason for it. DS1 is a very verbal and sociable little boy, and having nobody to talk to is just terrible!
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Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is nothing worth being eager or vigorous about." Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.
"Nikki" kavan...@iw.net
At 4yo even if he makes the connections he might not be able to control his impulses very well. The consequences should be something immediate and as closely related to the problem as possible. For hitting, hold his hands, for throwing remove the item he threw, etc. The only thing I really use time outs for lately is talking back to me because I don't know what else to do for that one and Luke does it a lot.
I used to use time outs a lot more. At first they had a big impact but now it is a game so I've quit it all except for the talking back. They'd do a naughty thing then go run and sit on their time out chair themselves, lol.
I hate time outs because my kids don't stay there. I either have to guard them (which I think they like) or spend an hour dragging them back there until they have served their time.
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Nikki Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 EDD 4/06
"Nikki" kavan...@iw.net
Sorry I keep replying. I'm interested in this thread because I have trouble figuring out ways to deal with my 4yo all the time. Some kids are just more persistent in their behavior and more immune to our interventions.
Anyway, I wanted to add that one of the things that works the best for me is to take a look at our whole life and try to identify the things that aren't working. Addressing some of those things, along with affective discipline, generally has much better results then just addressing the one behavior with discipline. Just to give you an idea of some of the things we've done in that area at different times....more time with one parent or the other, more routine, more sleep, more rough house play, more down time, change of routine, more snacks, more consistency between dh and I, etc.
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Nikki Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 EDD 4/06
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