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"Bam" scimedmoni...@yahoo.com
I've got to go help my daughter with some obligations but here's some "facts" to begin chewing on: a.. 45% of the people who attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings never return after their first meeting.
a.. 95% never return after the first year.
a.. Based on AAWS' own statistics Alcoholics Anonymous has only a 5% retention rate.
a.. Those who left AA look elsewhere, such as conventional alcohol rehab and drug treatment centers for solutions, but, 93-97% of conventional, drug rehab and alcohol treatment centers are 12 step or AA based, thus individuals essentially rejoin AA.
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Bambi Geist Feaster Unending Possibilities, LLC Addiction, Midlife, Marital Counseling ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (Disclaimer: The aforementioned opinion is just that, an opinion, and is not to be construed as professional advice. If you seek professional advice, contact me privately.) begin 666 spacer.gif K1TE&.#EA`0`!`( ``/___P```"'Y! $`````+ `````!``$```("1 $`.P`` ` end
"Ste ...@my-deja.com" <ste
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:56:10 -0800, "Bam" <scimedmoni...@yahoo.com> wrote: I have heard that. AA is only 5% successful. The boosters are the 5%. The 95% who don't continue going are the part they don't talk about.
"Edward Gmys" edwardg...@wahoo.com
WOW!!! That get cured that fast?! Sheeesh! Who'd a thunk it?
"Bam" <scimedmoni...@yahoo.com> wrote
"Ed Chait" edcha...@earthlink.net
Yes, sadly, the great majority of drug addicts and alcoholics do *not* recover. This is true for any treatment methodology.
It is extremely hard to compile accurate statistics on this issue because of many factors, but I do believe that AA/NA has the best success rate in an endeavor with an inherently poor success rate.
Most wind up, as they say, in jails, institutions or dead.
hmmmmmm, it's almost time for the Thursday meeting.
ed
"Ed Chait" edcha...@earthlink.net
LOL, we talk about them at almost every meeting. It helps to keep us from becoming one of the 95%!
A 5% recovery rate when you are dealing with something as deadly and insidious as addiction is a very good rate.
ed
raemorr ...@aol.com.com (RaeMorrill)
A 5% recovery rate when you are dealing with something as deadly and insidious as addiction is a very good rate.>> Frankly I'm surprised you don't consider that a character flaw and weakness.
Rae Morrill in Maine "Ya can't get theyuh from heeah" _______________________________ Spam mailers WILL be reported to their respective postmasters and AOL TOSSPAM!
"Bam" mizgr...@comcast.net
Do you TRULY think so? I disagree. Don't have time to elaborate my disagreement so much tonight, but I *do* disagree.
"Ed Chait" edcha...@earthlink.net
I never claimed that panic attacks are a character flaw, just that there is often a significant psychological component.
You're twisting what I said to try to discredit my statements. That won't play either Rae, I'm better at it than you are:).
ed
"Ed Chait" edcha...@earthlink.net
Yeah, all the funerals I have attended have helped to drive that point home.
I keep my black suit handy.
ed
"Bam" scimedmoni...@yahoo.com
Death rate surely can't be considered a "healthy" statistic?? People die from all sorts of diseases.
I don't 100% buy the theory that addiction is a disease process. It's a behavioral process that CAN involve physiologic components.
I work with a lot of heroin addicts and crack addicts, and I can tell ya---
an AA meeting doesn't do sh*t for most of these guys. If the behavioral change we recommend is "just don't do it" or "get to a meeting" then we're going to continue seeing an 80% relapse rate.
Oh because statistically, 20% of addicts who SEEK treatment (either court sanctioned, employer precipitated, or on their own) will stay sober--- but the percentage of those that cite the 12-steps and/or AA et al is extremely low.
I serve on a board of directors for a recovery house for women. Nine out of eleven of the board members are recovering addicts and many of them will tell you, as well, that expecting AA to "fix" the problem is an unreal expectation.
Comical things like alcoholics not liking junkies attending their meetings because "we aren't like them" is always an enlightening experience at AA meetings. Or the "old style" ones who figure abuse is the best course of treatment.
"djgordon" djgor...@mchsi.com
I know AA sure didn't help my mom to recover. After we did an intervention and finally got her to go, she went for a while. Then one night she left for the meeting. Her sponsor called about 30 minutes later and asked where she was. LOL, we said, well, she left a while ago to come to the meeting. She came home at regular time and everything. We never did get it out of her where she was except for "at AA." She ended up going cold turkey in I think it was '94 and stayed that way up until about '96 when she was trying to help my sister through her divorce and subsequent single mother status and was staying at her house most days and nights and my sister was throwing parties and kept alcohol in the house around her all the time. She fell off the wagon for about a year or two, and has been sober since about '98 I guess, although she was an alcoholic so long that she literally "pickled" herself. This is the woman I most admired most of my life for being the most intelligent woman I knew. Now, she has literally lost all her common sense and it's almost like she's 5 again. Of course a heart attack in '96 and a very bad car wreck in '97 didn't help any, not to mention the fact she is now a year into being a breast cancer survivor. Yes, she has problems, and we all support her, but Alanon and AA really didn't help our family at all.
Dani ...
"Bam" scimedmoni...@yahoo.com
Don't get me wrong, there *ARE* AA success stories. I just happen to personally disagree that it should be the primary course of treatment and it DOES have a very low success rate.
Each success is a success and that shouldn't be diminished, but I get a little riled when I hear the 12-steps touted as "THE" way.
...
"Anne Vasquez" annevasq...@NOSPAMhotmail.com
It's probably like anything else; different things work for different people. Whenever anything works for someone with an addiction, it's something to celebrate! (And I don't mean with booze or drugs!) Anne ...
"Ed Chait" edcha...@earthlink.net
NA saved my life and the life of many, many others before me.
You can debate this till the cows come home, but I don't have to be an apologist for a program that works.
If you have never been an addict, you have very little credibility as a counselor to me. I don't care how many boards you are on.
The best therapy is one recovering addict helping another, because without empathy and identification, not much progress can be made.
Regards, ed
tripic ...@yahoo.com (Phoebe)
Some interesting stuff about AA effectiveness: http://www.aabibliography.com/aaphotonewhtml/cultcure.html "Perhaps Bufe's most thoughtful and useful chapter is No. 7, "How Effective is AA." He reviews here the significantly paltry body of literature that applies any scientific yardstick to AA's work. AA steadfastly resists having its effectiveness measured by outsiders.
However, even "friendly" studies and AA's own figures show unimpressive results. Bufe shows, for example: Although at least half and perhaps as many as nine out of ten alcoholics in the US have been to an AA meeting once in their lives, only about 5 to 8 percent of alcoholics return often enough for AA to count them as members.
Taking at face value AA's own claim that 45 % of its members in 1996 had at least five years sobriety, this means that only about 2 to 4 per cent of alcoholics in the US achieved five years' sobriety in AA.
Of every 100 persons who begin AA in any given year, only 5 are still in AA and still sober a year later ??“ according to AA's own 1989 surveys.
The only two studies attempting to measure the impact of AA participation against control groups (one in San Diego in 1960, another in Kentucky in the mid-70s) both concluded that AA participation was less effective than either nothing or participation in secular treatment.
A sympathetic long-term comparative study of AA-based treatment, by Harvard professor George Vaillant, found that the rate of relapse for those who had participated in the AA-based treatment was no different than for the untreated control group."
"Ed Chait" edcha...@earthlink.net
Again, accurate statistics are pretty much impossible to compile, and as we all know can be skewed easily to support any given argument.
It is true, however, that very few recover, no matter what treatment or program they may attend.
I am a member of NA (narcotics anonymous). In the time that I have been a member, I have seen a literal parade of people come and go, and only a small percentage stay and succesfully recover. Even out of those that stay for any significant length of time, some relapse. Some make it back, some don't.
If you search the WWW, you will find a plethora of anti-12 step, anti-AA, anti-NA websites.
Most of them are born out of a resentment towards these programs being spiritually based, and I think these folks could put their energy into something more productive than trying to tear down something that works for some people.
Maybe they could come up with something that works better, ya think?
ed:)
tripic ...@yahoo.com (Phoebe)
> Yes, sadly, the great majority of drug addicts and alcoholics do *not*
> recover. This is true for any treatment methodology.
Most wind up, as they say, in jails, institutions or dead.
Do they really? Are there any hard statistics? Or is that just AA/NA wishful thinking to continue to justify itself? (Of course in America, which imprisons a greater percentage of its population than any other country in the world, the part about ending up in jail may be true.) My personal experience with friends and others who have crossed the line from substance use to abuse is that eventually they listen to their bodies and stop, or get bored and stop, or marry someone who makes it worthwhile to stop, or finally deal with the underlying emotional pain and no longer need to self-medicate, etc.
(I'm a Deadhead; of course I know a fair number of recreational substance users. Jerry Garcia didn't die from his heroin use; he died because of good, old-fashioned diabetes and heart disease.) I really got a kick out of this AA-deprogramming site. This article is one of many on the site that mentions the tired slogan Ed mouths above: http://www.aadeprogramming.com/reclaim/dysfunctional.html Also of interest are the articles about why AA often doesn't work for women or survivors of abuse/trauma, and the discussion about whether or not AA can be considered a cult.
There are many alternatives to AA. Unfortunately with the stranglehold AA has on formal treatment programs in this country, the ineffective 12-step model is all that most people know of.
Phoebe
clj1 ...@aol.com57894789 (CLJ1219)
Sadly enough, the vast majority of the drug abusers that I have known, whether it be drugs or alcohol, have wound up dead. From either direct or indirect results of the the alcohol abuse. My SIL died of cirrhosis as a direct result of her decades long alcohol addiction (and yes, she had been through AA, counseling, inpatient detox, the whole nine yards). My nephew died in a MVA and alcohol was a definite factor in that accident. He was intoxicated when the accident occurred, at 6 a.m. I might add, and the other driver involved was intoxicated as well. They were best friends. Now he is dead and his best friend is, well, as they say, in jail.
Carol What can one expect of a day that begins with getting out of bed.
jeanniehwil ...@aol.comnonospam (Jeannie H Wilson)
While I believe that a 5% recovery rate is better than nothing, I personally would strive to find something with a better recovery rate. After all the 5% recovery rate also reflects a 95% failure to recover rate and to me, that is a bad thing.
gdub ...@aol.com (Gdubson)
But 5% is better than nothing.
Gisele (related to several alcoholics and drug addicts)
Donna do...@notrashcroakerwoods.com
I personally see it as an ajunctive "therapy" because of the "wounded healer" aspect of the members in the groups. I see it as "A" way rather than "THE" way. I've never done a 12-step program, but have met many who have, AA specifically, but including NA among others. I don't believe there is ever a "THE" way for any issue or we'd all have answers rather than issues.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donna http://www.teeshirtmemories.com Turning tee shirts into one-of-a-kind memory quilts.
Donna do...@notrashcroakerwoods.com
Gisele, I whole heartedly agree... 5% is absolutely better than 0%.
For some, 1 is too many, a million not enough... AA didn't work for my dad at all, but as I mentioned earlier, it saved the life of at least one family member and all of that family member's children who were at risk having an alcholic for a parent.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donna http://www.teeshirtmemories.com Turning tee shirts into one-of-a-kind memory quilts.
jeanniehwil ...@aol.comnonospam (Jeannie H Wilson)
Right...isn't that what I said? <VBG>
raemorr ...@aol.com.com (RaeMorrill)
Jerry Garcia didn't die from his heroin use; he died because of good, old-fashioned diabetes and heart disease.)>>> Both exacerbated by substance abuse (the kind of substances you chew and eat rather than shoot up) Rae Morrill in Maine "Ya can't get theyuh from heeah" _______________________________ Spam mailers WILL be reported to their respective postmasters and AOL TOSSPAM!
"Bam" scimedmoni...@yahoo.com
> Spoken like a true addict..... I don't believe I stated my status as addict or not, as it is not germaine to the topic, nor to your recovery. Brain surgeons often have never had brain surgery, nor the diseases and ailments cured by it....have they? ;-) I've dealt with a lot of "Ed's" Ed.....
That's bullshit but I want to go out on a happy note, so I'll just let you sit smugly in your bullshit--- maybe you can spend a minute or two, however, considering the ridiculousness of that statement.
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