Question-Congregate Care

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dedndog ...@aol.com (DedNdogYrs)

There is a website run by a man named Roger Kiser who tells about abuse he suffered in foster care back in the 1950's in the deep south, first with distant relatives acting as foster parents, then in an orphanage. In my part of the country orphanages are as extinct as dinosaurs, either closed or converted to residential treatment centers. He says a lot of them still exist and that they don't allow children to write or receive letters; that they are allowed no use of the U.S. Postal Service.  He also refers to them as prisons.  Does anyone know about this?  It seems rather strange to me.   Dogs & children first.

fern5 ...@aol.com (Fern5827)

Hi, Dead--I remember that there was an orphanage near my home in the mid 50's.
The girl, who attended a local public school was nice enough, but the prevailing impression I got of her was that she was plain, gray, and dressed in overly drab clothes.
There have SPRUNG up many *residential boot camps.*.  Many of these deal with incorrigible teens and are quite EXPENSIVE.
Some are located in woodsy, remote locations.  (So the kids can't escape) Some are basically drug treatment centers.
Skakel (alleged killer of M.Moxley)--related to Kennedys--went to Elan, a tx center in Maine, which is still in existence today.
CPS has made it very difficult for parents to *forbid* their children from indulging in very detrimental habits.
It costs parents thousands, and also costs School Districts plenty, because the children are entitled to a free public education till they are 21 (if special ed.) CPS has not helped families.
DEad in Dog years wrote:

"Doug" dougl...@earthlink.net

Hi!
Orphanages are extinct, abeit, some would say, in name only.
A formiable caucus of Congresspersons are in favor of reinstating actual orphanages in response to foster care overcrowding -- the foster population has been growing at horrendous rates since p***age of ASFA.  Notably, the population of "state wards" -- children who have been legally severed from their parents through TPR -- has skyrocketed.  These children are candidates for long-term stays in state custody, so orphanages increasingly seems a viable option to some policymakers.
Lets cross our fingers and hope that ASFA is repealed before the politicians look for alternative housing for its victims.
At any rate, currently "Residential Treatment Centers" or "group homes" perform the same role as orphanages.  A percentage of the foster care population are housed in these profitable institutions.  How big a percentage depends upon the state.  Nebraska, for instance, is big on group home "care." They range from acceptable to horrifically abusive.  CPS workers are very familiar with their respective quality and part of their decision-making is deciding which kid will go to which Residential Treatment Center.  You can often determine how the agency is posturing concerning permenancy plans by noting the group home chosen to house the orphan of the living.
Additionally, foster kids are rated in terms of their presenting behaviors, emotional and physical problems.  These are articulated in "levels."  Many foster kids operate under the grossly mistaken belief that, if they act out, they will eventually be sent home.  Almost all foster kids want to go home and will go to any lengths to do so.  (They always return home, of course.
It is simply a matter of time.  Many wait until they age out of the system.) Despite workers rather dramatic attempts to convince them otherwise, a "Level I" kid will act out until her behaviors qualify her for Level II.
Unfortunately, many foster caregivers are in the market for what they call a "keeper" (a child they can adopt or foster long-term) and will complain of behaviors to get their ward moved to another home.  These "behaviors" used as justifications by the foster caregiver can get the child bumped up from, say, Level II to Level III.  And so it goes.  The general transistion is from family home settings to group homes.  Group homes, like individual foster caregivers, are qualified to accept certain levels.  The institutions are paid considerably more for higher level kids -- hundreds of dollars a day.  Since a Level III or Level IV kid is a more profitable resident, group homes tend to specialize in children needing this level of "care."  The higher levels also include some generally derranged and damaged children who are perps themselves.  One can imagine the problem blending these populations.  It is not uncommon to mix into the same "group home" a 4 year old victim of sexual abuse with 12 year old sexual preditor.
So, the conditions the former foster child explained to you are not surprising to me.  It is very likely all of them existed in the Residential Treatment Centers where he writer was incarcerated. Restricting phone and mail correspondence is common in these institutions. It is also understandable that, as a child, he viewed his "home" as an orphanage.  They appear to both children and adults to be orphanages. . .probably because they are.

fern5 ...@aol.com (Fern5827)

Doug sent in: One of my friends has 2 very difficult young sons.  The allegations of sexual abuse against the Dad have been made.
The older son was threatened at one tx center with being taken by DYFS again to a group treatment home.
The young lady whom I knew in a professional capacity was EXTREMELY DISTRESSED at not being placed with FAMILY.  She was 15, intelligent, sensitive, and not understanding why she was not placed with FAMILY.
At that time, I was naive about CPS and its tactics.  I wished I could have been of more support to her.
As I hear more stories I have become far more wary of CPS and its capability to help children and/or families.
Frankly, I was horrified to find out that in NJ---DYFS utilizes *group homes* for 5 yr olds.
These are middle-cl*** kids, too.
As Dr. Gelles states--"We have to do child welfare better." Doug sent in (to Dead in Dog years)  >Subject: Re: Question-Congregate Care

pohakuyakok ...@subdimension.com (Kane)

What was the basis for the "threat" then? What did he do that resulted in a "threat"? Could be he was told that if continued to put hands on another child for the purpose of sexual activity he'd be moved to a treatment setting where this issue is addressed. They exist. I worked in one many many years ago. They are very effective.
And you'll believe whatever you are told, right?
My guess, given your performance here of offering the very worst kinds of advice to folks trying to sort through their own debacles with CPS, is that you'd have done her more harm than not.
Did I mention that you tend to believe whatever you here that excites you emotionally and lack critical reasoning skills and objectivity?
No, I couldn't have. r r r r r Notice the careful wording by Doug the Duplicitious. "not uncommon" is weasel wording. If it happens at all it's horrendous and it is not an intentional placement. He didn't even bother to mention that some 4 year olds are themselves agressively sexual toward others, and some 12 year olds are themselves victims. But any clarity would upset his agenda, and yours,  now wouldn't it, Mushroom?
So you think that there are enough foster parents that will put up with the stupid ignorant faction of the public (YOU) so that there can be a foster parent for every child or one or two children?
How quaint. Most foster homes take up to 8, including their own bio children if they are a couple (given they have the capacity of beds and rooms), and six if they are single. Unfortuneately there are so many abusive parents out there such homes are sometimes overloaded temporarily.
So you don't think that Petunias deserve to be the same flowerbed with Broccoli, eh?
It's charming to learn how very cl***ist and elitist you are. But then we all knew that from many of your prior posts.
As every foster parent, every child welfare worker, as every police officer that sees injured and dead children, states, "We have to do child welfare better." Notice Gelles didn't say "child protection"? I wonder why?   Does he know something you are overlooking? Like the fact the public is not in the mood for "welfare" so much as "protection"?
snip........
It's time for some Side Dressing, Plant. Your Leaves are showing too much yellow. Lack of Potash and Nitrogen I'd wager.
r r r r r Bingo bango bongo.
Stoneman

pohakuyakok ...@subdimension.com (Kane)

Not a spanker, I hope. If not why not? And why didn't spanking work?
Hey, why wasn't the Dad spanked as he was growing up, or was he? r r r r r So tell us, Crocus, what is the right way to raise kids again? Lots of punishment will straighten them out, right?
Kane

Gree ...@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson)

Can we review whether kids in state care are allowed to send and receive US Mail?
The basic idea of restricted contact between family members doesn't make sense to me except in the most horrible cases.
Some of the foster care providers with large numbers of kids do sound a lot like the old "orphanages".
What's really incredible is that CPS agencies create "orphans of the living" by removing kids for reasons as piddly as "clutter" in order to self justify and feed their allied industries of foster care and social services contractors.
I have often heard foster care called foster incarceration.
My cheapo dictionary defines incarceration as jail.
Is there some other definition of incarceration that does NOT apply to foster care?

pohakuyakok ...@subdimension.com (Kane)

Sure, go ahead. I'll even offer what I know, Whore.
Yes, they can unless there is some overiding concern, such as safety of the child and the foster family providing a safe place for the child. Or that the child for some reason related to therapeutic concerns is temporarily restricted by order of the shrink doing the therapy. Kids right their family members all the time while in out of home care.
Of course not. You have no sense other than the one for self delusion and self gratification indicated by your causing the removal of the child from the home of her mother, where you now reside, sitting on your fat worthless lazy backside. Hope you are shaggin' momma frequently. She has to get something out of the arrangement you orchestrated and have tried to blame on grandma.
Yes. Can we ***ume you are then recruiting for foster parents so the ratio will be lowered a bit? How about you volun.........opps, s'cuse me, no not you. I forgot your strange ability to train children like animals. Were you teaching the girl to bark?
What's even more incredible is that you can sit there as the cause of a child and mother being kept apart and not puke all over yourself.
I've noticed that you are quite adept at avoidance by diversion to other topics.
The only thing we want you to post here are your plans and the execution of those plans to move your lazy *** out of that little girl's rightful home that you usurped.
If there is any self justifying going on here it is yours.
And you feed at the table from the dishes and comistibles that belong by rights to that child you displaced.
Who would provide foster care and contracted services if these didn't?
You volunteering your time again? Can we count on you to stay out of the showers and away from towels and animal training tricks?
No you haven't except right here were you share space with a number of lard ***es such as yourself. When children are old enough in most states there is nothing holding them in the foster home. They can leave if they wish. If there is an order of protection keeping them away from their parents, however, the parents can be charged if they do not notify CPS and or the police immediately and take some steps to remove the child from their premises.
Very good for a cheapo dictionary. Did you get that with the money you cadge off the little girls mother?
Ah, little Greegor the Whore plays at wit. Let me see now, which of the rules of logic have you managed to insult this time, pissant?
Ah yes, false analogy. Sorry, Whore. You blew it again. No one is fooled or diverted from the facts about you that you have posted here in these ngs before. You moved in. The child got showered and towel attended and pushed back under the shower by you then taken away by the state whereupon you created a document to present to the court that was absolutely guaranteed to keep the child out of the mother's home, where you reside to this day, not working, babbling your stupidity and spreading your foul stench upon the land.
I'll still be happy to teach the girl livestock castration when she is old enough, and teach grandpa how to punch much much harder. How may I get in touch with them?
Tah.
Kane

dedndog ...@aol.com (DedNdogYrs)

Thank you to everyone who answered my questions and would like to hear more.   <the foster population has been growing at horrendous rates since p***age of ASFA.>   What is ASFA?
<children who have been legally severed from their parents through TPR -- has skyrocketed.> And what is TPR?     Dogs & children first.

fern5 ...@aol.com (Fern5827)

Dedn Dog years queried: ASFA- Adoption and Safe Families Act.  P***ed in 97- under Clinton- imposes time limits on CPS to hasten adoptions.
Struck down by some Courts, I believe as being unconstitutional.
Doug is totally aware of this Federal Law and can bring in more info.
tpr=TERMINATION OF PARENTAL RIGHTS.   BTW, a Michigan court recently held that terminating a teen's rights to her child was illegal--and ordered the child returned to her.
Seems the teen admitted to smoking MJ.

LaVonne Carlson carls...@umn.edu

Hey Fern.  Let's respond to this post, okay.  You made the allegations.
You are the one to answer Kane.  Don't respond and we know you have no ability to respond.   It's easy to make claims but difficult to debate or respond when challenged.
I'll wait for you response, as I have waited for years for responses to your posts, which you choose to ignore.
If it's good enough to post, Fern, it should be sound enough to defend in debate.
LaVonne

LaVonne Carlson carls...@umn.edu

This has been deleted from alt.parenting.spanking.  Please check your cross posts.  This has nothing to do with the designated topic of alt.parenting.spanking.] LaVonne

Doan d...@usc.edu

What does this have to do with spanking, LaVonne? ;-) Doan

dedndog ...@aol.com (DedNdogYrs)

One thing that amazes me about institutional care is that until about the mid 60's the children in them were just there mostly because of poverty or neglect; very few for abuse.  I just saw something on the Discovery Channel about a little girl who was murdered in 1961 with m***ive traumatic injuries and nobody was even questioned. Finally they got the mother after 35 years and four more abused children when her imprisoned brother spoke up and they dug up the body.
The body was almost gone; just disconnected bones but they were able to get evidence out of it anyway.  The mother got only five years for "involuntary manslaughter" I guess because that's what she would have gotten back when the child was murdered.  It's hard to understand what people were thinking back then.   Dogs & children first.

rvrrt ...@aol.com (Rvrrt270)

There are religious organizations that run small childrens' homes with 30-40 children in what looks like a large home with furniture that looks like what you would have in a middle cl*** home and the places usually have swimming pools and trips to the mall and other places for the kids. I wonder if more places like this would help cut down on the amount of moving around that foster kids are subjected to, and the way they are sometimes used for their payments and treated differently than the biological foster family's children.