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"Sebastian" dbj...@ozemail.com.au
OK, I don't have an answer to this one at all.
Any suggestions.
16 year old son becomes aggrevssive over a period of time bullying his younger brother, most recently spiting in 13 year old son's porridge.
Parents are reportedly "good parents" though I don't know what that means.
I was asked indirectly for advice on this one and had very little to say because I am concerned about how the parental relationship had deteriorated to this point and how it could be recovered.
My adolescent-psychology-major work ***ociate suggests the 13 year old should be taught to attack his older brother since this will decrease the feeling of victoy for the older boy!
I feel that the parents need to intervene and establish that this behaviour is unacceptable - but surely this is the point of the action, it is a designed to offend and be beyond reasonable - perhaps even a challenge to the parents to take control.
I have "parented" a number of delinquent teenagers over the years who have done things much worse than this but none of them has ever done anything quite as strange. Nor have they exhibited this kind of aggression towards other members of my household. Certainly I have had teenagers living with me who can be very aggressive towards their own friends when drunk or under the influence of drugs but even then they would stop short of this kind of behaviour.
Any ideas - appologies that this is a bit off topic.
fern5 ...@aol.com (Fern5827)
The older boy may have been aggressive toward his younger brother.
Not at all uncommon in families.
The younger one is now fighting back with a disgusting tool at his disposal.
Spit.
Of course. Should have been stopped years ago.
Well in the US you have 2 young teens accused and convicted of murdering the only parent who housed them for years.
The Pensacola FL family.
Parents may have told boys not to PHYSICALLY FIGHT. Younger teen may be taking parents at their word. Technically, he is not fighting--just spitting.
I take it you have not seen too many troubled teens. Teens often heed the words, but not the intent of the words.
Any disrespectful behavior should be limited. They should keep out of each other's space.
Younger one should have consequences for his misbehavior.
observer observer_mem...@newsguy.com
" . . . spiting in 13 year old son's porridge." Make the older kid apologize for his aggression and pay for any damages he causes, including having to fix a new bowl of porridge for the younger and serve it too him.
Someone was asleep at the wheel since things should never have been allowed to get this far.
LaVonne Carlson carls...@umn.edu
Sebastian, No need to apologize. I think your post is definitely "on topic" for this ng.
Several questions need to be asked. When did the animosity between the 16 year old and the 13 year old develop? When did it reach the level you describe.
What has happened in the family (I agree, what does "good parents" really mean)? These teenagers are old enough to express themselves. Has anyone asked either of them how they are feeling about each other, and about their family?
The parents definitely need to intervene and declare this behavior unacceptable, however I doubt this will have much effect until someone begins to understand the reasons behind the behavior. I'd begin building rapport and trust with the 16 year old and the 13 year old. Reasons for this are two fold. 1) Without rapport and trust, any therapy or behavioral program is not likely to succeed. 2) Rapport and trust will allow the teenagers to open up and help express their feelings, which will help you determine the cause of the behavior and how to help them deal with it.
LaVonne
an ...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
I suppose you're asking for suggestions for things the parents can do.
Bullying is actually very common. Children do lots of things equally as bad and as strange as that. Things like spitting on people, grabbing people's hats and not giving them back for a while, etc.
A reasonable action the parents could take would be to send the child to his room for 5 minutes, then have him apologize to his brother, then have him cook a new batch of porridge for his brother (while the parents watch to make sure it's done right).
They can also have him tell them what would have been an appropriate way to express the sentiment he was feeling at the time, and have him say that to his brother. There are lots of other possibilities.
I think it's important that the parents make it clear that that sort of behaviour isn't tolerated.
While making this clear, the parents can also avoid modelling bad behaviour themselves. They can do what I describe above without yelling, hitting, making inappropriate threats, or spitting back.
The parents can also think over possible causes of the overall pattern of behaviour.
One possibility that springs to mind is brain damage. People sometimes become aggressive after a head injury. Children naturally tend to try to gain power as they get older, perhaps especially in the teenage years. I think it helps if the child has positive channels for this desire for power: things like prospects for an eventual career, and privileges within the family awarded on the basis of age or of attaining a level of maturity or of taking on responsibilities.
Maybe there have been stresses in the family lately: things like deaths in the family, fights between the parents that the child might have seen, etc. The child might have been yelled at or attacked by family members or by people outside the family.
Regardless of the cause or causes of the overall pattern, individual behaviours like that usually need some sort of response that shows that it's not tolerated, IMO.
--
Cathy Woodgold TISSATAAFL Ottawa, Ontario, Canada http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~an588/ an...@freenet.carleton.ca Given any two things, they have at least one similarity and at least one difference; therefore an analogy can be drawn between them.
observer observer_mem...@newsguy.com
"Bullying is actually very common." It is so common that 10s of thousands of children either skip school out of fear or go to school armed because they fear for their safety in America's public schools.
"Sebastian" dbj...@ozemail.com.au
Sounds like a good idea, I will suggest it.
"Sebastian" dbj...@ozemail.com.au
Same answer as Observer suggested. Thanks, I thinks it's a good idea if the parents still have that level of control, I will suggest it.
"Sebastian" dbj...@ozemail.com.au
Unfortunately you've got it round the wrong way. Older boy is the spitter.
I know what you mean, though your premise is wrong. I have been involved with quite a number of troubled young men. My wife and I have had ten young recovering drug addicts live with us for various periods of time. They are certainly good at missing the point behind boundaries whilst complying with the boundary itself...
Not all have been successfully rehabilitated but all have shown significantly improved socialisation. I have just always managed to keep their respect enough to avoid this sort of behaviour.
I will suggest the idea that both Observer and LaVonne came up with and see how it goes. I am not deeply involved in this situation so I don't know how it got to this stage but my concern is that if it got there it will be difficult to recover.
go ...@SPAMMENOThotmail.com (Ivan Gowch)
==>The older boy may have been aggressive toward his younger brother.
==> ==>Not at all uncommon in families.
==> ==>The younger one is now fighting back with a disgusting tool at his disposal.
==>Spit.
==> ==>>I feel that the parents need to intervene and establish that this behaviour ==>>is unacceptable - but surely this is the point of the action, it is a ==> ==>Of course. Should have been stopped years ago.
==> ==>>I have "parented" a number of delinquent teenagers over the years who have ==>>done things much worse than this but none of them has ever done anything ==>>quite as strange. Nor have they exhibited this kind of aggression ==> ==>Well in the US you have 2 young teens accused and convicted of murdering the ==>only parent who housed them for years.
==> ==>The Pensacola FL family.
==> ==>>Any ideas - appologies that this is a bit off topic.
==>> ==> ==>Parents may have told boys not to PHYSICALLY FIGHT. Younger teen may be taking ==>parents at their word. Technically, he is not fighting--just spitting.
==> ==>I take it you have not seen too many troubled teens. Teens often heed the ==>words, but not the intent of the words.
==> ==>Any disrespectful behavior should be limited. They should keep out of each ==>other's space.
==> ==>Younger one should have consequences for his misbehavior.
Fern, you never fail to astonish.
Do you EVER read a post before rushing to reply? Do you care at all that getting something as wrong as you did here (and you do this a lot) makes you look like an idiot?
Do you have any inkling that your habit of running off at the mouth (so to speak) before taking time to understand the issue has reduced your credibility to absolute zero?
CLUE: It was the 16-year-old boy who spit in his younger brother's porridge, Fern. Not the other way around.
Sheesh!
--
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations or the dictates of our p***ions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
-- John Quincy Adams
go ...@SPAMMENOThotmail.com (Ivan Gowch)
==>Any suggestions.
==>16 year old son becomes aggrevssive over a period of time bullying his ==>younger brother, most recently spiting in 13 year old son's porridge.
==>Parents are reportedly "good parents" though I don't know what that means.
==>I was asked indirectly for advice on this one and had very little to say ==>because I am concerned about how the parental relationship had deteriorated ==>to this point and how it could be recovered.
==>My adolescent-psychology-major work ***ociate suggests the 13 year old ==>should be taught to attack his older brother since this will decrease the ==>feeling of victoy for the older boy!
==>I feel that the parents need to intervene and establish that this behaviour ==>is unacceptable - but surely this is the point of the action, it is a ==>designed to offend and be beyond reasonable - perhaps even a challenge to ==>the parents to take control.
==>I have "parented" a number of delinquent teenagers over the years who have ==>done things much worse than this but none of them has ever done anything ==>quite as strange. Nor have they exhibited this kind of aggression towards ==>other members of my household. Certainly I have had teenagers living with me ==>who can be very aggressive towards their own friends when drunk or under the ==>influence of drugs but even then they would stop short of this kind of ==>behaviour.
==> ==>Any ideas - appologies that this is a bit off topic.
Not off-topic at all. This is a parenting group, after all.
Getting to the point . . . My first reaction to the situation you describe is . . . what's the big deal?
Without more information about the type of "bullying" that goes on here, it's difficult to judge whether there is a real problem or not.
Yes, older kids tend to throw their weight around with younger ones, e.g.: insisting on their "right" to manage the TV remote control, deciding what CD to play, claiming ownership of the last can of Coke, etc. This is a jockeying for position that is a normal, even natural, part of the dynamic in virtually all families (both human and animal, although animals drink less Coke).
If the bullying includes violence, however, or is so persistent and relentless that the health and/or happiness of the younger sibling is at risk, then intervention is required.
As to the example you cited about the older kid spitting in the younger one's porridge, that's certainly objectionable, although it it's not in the same cl*** of bullying as physical violence or persistent verbal abuse.
Sixteen-year-old kids are far from being mature or having reliably good judgment. The older boy may well have thought of it as a harmless prank or as mild retaliation for some "misdeed" committed by his brother. Spitting in the porridge is disgusting, sure, but I don't believe it signals the type of disturbance in the spitter as, say, smearing feces on his brother's bed or wall would have.
You failed to say what action, if any, the parents took. It seems to me it would be appropriate for Dad to take the 16-year-old aside and say something like, "Look, you and your brother don't always get along and that's all right. You have to work things out between yourselves. But we don't tolerate abuse in this house and spitting in someone's food is definitely abuse. You're old enough and smart enough to understand that it's not right to do to him what you wouldn't want done to you, so let's not see any more of that." In my experience (three kids: boy, 18, girl, 16, boy, 13; a stint as a child care worker in a provincial psychiatric hospital), most normal kids will respond to this type of parental intervention and change their behaviour (although such change may not be immediate, kids being what they are). Needless to say, this will only work if there is a decent relationship between parents and the teenager in question. If there's not, then the problems in that family are 'way beyond the scope of any advice you can get from a Usenet newsgroup and may require professional intervention.
It's only if the older boy refuses to moderate his bullying behaviour or if his relationship with his brother and/or parents deteriorates further that I would begin to fear that something more worrisome was happening.
As for your adolescent-psychology-major work ***ociate, s/he is an idiot. Please tell him/her I said so. Counselling someone to commit violence in this type of situation (or, in fact, almost any type of situation) is stupid beyond belief. Your account does not say that there has actually been physical violence in this family. If your "***ociate" truly believes that instigating violence in a situation like this can do anything other than introduce real danger -- possibly disaster -- into the mix s/he is definitely going into the wrong field, and should probably consider a career in the military, where this kind of neanderthal thinking is encouraged.
Regards.
--
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations or the dictates of our p***ions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
-- John Quincy Adams
an ...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
For parents who don't have basic control over their children --
who don't know how to make the child go to his/her room when told to go as a punishment, for example -- I highly recommend the book "Setting Limits: Raising Responsible Children with CLEAR Boundaries" by R. MacKenzie.
I think it's good to read other books too to get more of an emphasis on positive methods, but for basic getting-control this is a good book.
They can think about what they do have control over: giving out money? Turning off the TV? Locking the door? Doing cooking and laundry versus going on strike and letting the teenager do his own?
Standing in his way so he can't go outside?
Then they can set up a system of punishments so that if he doesn't conform to a consequence --
e.g. he refuses to go to his room -- then a backup consequence is applied. However, all punishments should be presented as much as possible as calmly and consistently applied logical consequences, not as excessive, vindictive impulsive punishments at the parents' momentary whim.
I found it most useful the idea from that book of using backup consequences that sound like this: (for child refusing to go to his/her room) "For every minute it takes you to get to your room, you will stay there an extra two minutes." Or, if the punishment is to turn off the TV for 5 minutes: "You can turn it off yourself for 5 minutes, or I will turn it off for an hour." If necessary the latter can be enforced by the parent turning off the TV repeatedly, or standing in front of it, or re-starting the hour every time the kid turns it back on. In this way, the child is in situations where it's usually better to comply; so the child develops a habit of complying with the parental commands.
--
Cathy Woodgold TISSATAAFL Ottawa, Ontario, Canada http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~an588/ an...@freenet.carleton.ca Given any two things, they have at least one similarity and at least one difference; therefore an analogy can be drawn between them.
observer observer_mem...@newsguy.com
" . . . giving out money?" Oh, just what the world needs, another child taught the he or she can control people with money.
rs2 ...@hotmail.com (Robert Shepherd)
I will hold off. (I'm sure you'll get plenty of response) But I do NOT think it is at all off topic.
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