Summer Camps
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InsaneScouter webmas...@insanescouter.org
(Note I am posting these questions several places) I just returned from summer camp with my Troop. We went to an out of Council Camp. However the local Council has asked me to ***ist them with their local camp for 2005 (marketing, program ideas, changes to be made, etc). It is from these two point of view that I am sending this email.
The more specifics and details you provide the better your answers will help me. Even real examples will be useful.
1. What thing(s) stand out most in your mind about summer camp? The things that impressed you the most, or the least.
2. If you could change anything about the summer camp you went to. what would it be?
3. What would you like to see summer camps do that they currently are not doing?
4. In your experience are the merit badges to easy to earn at summer camp? For example Wilderness Survival in 30 mins, Leatherwork in le*** then an hour (plus making project in camp), most of nature in less a hour, etc.
5. Would you like to see the mess hall, and food services done in a different way?
6. Does the camp use a website effectively, if so how, and what is its address (www.mycamp.com)? 7. How do you fund summer camp? The parents pay the fees? Fundraisiers?
Does the Troop pay for the adults?
8. Did the staff appear to be on the lazy side, immature, unwilling to work with your Scouts, or were they great?
9. Can you provide me with details from a Camp / Program Director point of view? (examples Camp Budget, meal planning, donations, what happens months before cam starts, hiring staff, facility maintenance, etc) 10. Any other info that may help...
I would really like BSA guidelines in regards to summer camps including accreditation requirements and details. However I have seen already from an earlier post this data isn't online. I guess I will ask my Council if they can get me a copy.
Thank you for taking the time to answer as many of my questions as you can. This data will help me put together a proposal for my council. I will also be willing to share the answers to these questions.
Happy and Wacky Scouting Scott Robertson Webmaster www.insanescouter.org www.webelos.org www.insaneweb.net
"USR1942(MC_CET)" mc99...@hotmail.com
Your local council could be wondering why you went out-of-council for your summer camp experience and would like a chance to convince you theirs id better???
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:23:19 -0700, InsaneScouter The wholesomeness...simplicity of scout camp life.
The regularity sometimes and the spontinaiety others.
Back to truly provisional camping.
Sourceing and preparing meals are an integral part of life.
Mess halls are not scoutlike.
Food is just a good a bonding agent as campfires.
Many are not into the simple crafts like carving ,pioneering (real pioneering) camp gadjetry etc There ares ome badges suitable for sumer camp.
Most are not and simply help fill up a day with low paid supervision.
Merit badges can be started ar summer camp but finished with a regular troop provided counselor in the subject over time.
Do away with mess halls for scout summer camps.
If you want YMCA camping go to the Y camps.
Parents always foot the bill but perceptive scoutmasters can wend the camping financing into the regular monthly scout program with the scout earning the money to pay his way...the preferable way.
all of the above but consider where they come from and how they are compensated and the vagaries of mangement they must function under...
I never was a camp director but I have worked with several good and several not so good ones.
On regional camp visits (inspections) one year I met a full time resident campdirector whose releationship with the ranger was very supportive.
They new when to subordinate or lead each other.
Their camp visit was flawless except for the above mentioned items that infest all scout sumer camps.
Get a real commisioner staff at summer camp not the camp provided light bultb changes and TP chasers....
Get on your council camping committee and do your best....bring a W ever notice how most of the commissioner campsites are now overgrown or abandoned...commissioners where art tho???
Copy...of what...the company line etc.
Interview the Camp Director, The Program Director ,the aquatics director,etc etc the camp commissioner and qwey them on their wxperience at the national campschool they attended.
Compare that with their observed performance at summer camp and read their after action reports (if any).
Happy wacky what?
Scouting is wacky at times.
Its a messy buisness But its only a game....
Read BPs Outlooks for some alternate views on scouting.
MCCET/PMTNPO
flpbpr ...@aol.com (FL PBPress)
When I was a scoutmaster, I took my troop to an out of council camp, because my own council shafted three of my scouts. They were elected to the OA, but the council would not induct them until September. They were military dependents, and their fathers had transfer orders, and there was no guarantee that their new council would honor their election.
The neighboring council honored their election, and inducted them, prior to their fathers' transfers in July. The troop attended the neighboring council's summer camp in mid June.
Now, marketing summer camp to the scouts is an easy sell. The kids want to go, the council wants to have them, etc. So first, when it comes to selling, there is an old adage/rhyme that goes: "He who has a thing to sell, And goes and whispers in a well, Is not as apt to make the dollars, As he who climbs a tree and hollers!" Summer camp must be "sold" the year 'round, starting in September. If you know you are going to have some scouts that will have problems paying their way, you get with the committee, and set up fund raisers, so the affected scouts can earn their way.
Keep in mind the five "P's." Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance.
What stands out about camp? The staff. The staff makes or breaks the camp, and individual staffers will be the ones that make impressions on your scouts and on the adult leaders, and those impressions will be good or bad.
The change would be to get rid of incompetent staff, and clone the best staff members.
Summer camps do the best they can, with what they have, and some camps have more than others. Some are merit badge mills, while others make the applicant scout earn every bit of the merit badge. I'd like to see horseback riding at more camps, but the trade off would be higher costs for the campers, as horses are expensive to maintain, and that cost has to be covered.
In the past one adult has gone to camp free, for every ten scouts, but that may not be true now, or may not be true in some councils. But that's by the boards. If the council does not permit the scoutmaster/other adult leader to attend camp free, then the troop should cover the cost. After all, unless the scoutmaster and another adult goes, neither do the kids, unless you send them with another troop, or, if the camp has it, a composite troop.
Hope this helps, even if I did ramble a bit.
Ken
"Phil Schuman" pschuman_NO_SPAM...@interserv.com
When I was a scout - we went to Owasippe in Mich.
http://www.chicagobsa.org/Owasippe.htm The oldest BSA scout camp - it has closed several of the original camps and sold off the land for condos :) but there are still some camps left...
Now, with our own scouts, we go to a couple of out-of-council camps -
Why out of council - because our council camp does cooking at your campsite...
One camp is Ransburg near bloomington IN - great -
http://www.ransburgbsa.org/ and another in Wisc called Napawon.- mediocre -
http://www.nwsc.org/camps/bssummercamp.shtml Some of the best times at Owasippe were had at the mess hall.
It was a time when you were proud t be a Scout, and the staff was older....not the younger clown staffs of today.
There were troop created plaques on the walls, and each year we would add an "attendance" year bar.
In fact, our current troop still chooses to go to camps where there is a prepared meal in a central gathering place - it's called camp spirit -
If we wanted to get our meals dropped off, and eat under our own dining fly in the rain every day for a week - we could do that on our own.
And yes, there are camps that encourage that - but I feel the spirit is lost.
ok - some comments from your list -
Good vs Bad -
Having older & mature youth staff vs a lot of clowning around.
Sure, scouting is youth run - but you need some 17/18 yr olds and an adult to keep things from moving to the chaos of some camps.
This distinction can be easily seen at meals & campfires, flag, etc...
It also carries over into MBs and other activities.
MB -
Can't directly say...since didn't actually see how the staff interacts.
But I do feel in general, that MBs are earned/awarded more easily when a group or mill or clinic setting is used.
You have "youth counselors" awarding MB's at summer camp, but then, how many MBs are given out by "youth counselors" the rest of the year at your troop or MB clinics or whatever - ?
Web - take a look at the Ransburg web & download their planner -
I guess bottom line is how the "youth staff" is oriented -
which in turn falls to the adult leadership of the camp, and what they expect.... make that DEMAND of their staff -
Jeana jamrodrig...@yahoo.com
Is there a written list of supplies for a weblos scout going to camp for a week? We have a short list (given oraly), but it just doesn't seem like enough.
Thanks, Jean
Rick Tyler rhty...@comcast.net
Your Council camp should give you a list. Here's the one from our Council's Cub Scout Camp list: Scout Gear: Completed physical form $25 for trading post Flashlight/batteries Sleeping Bag Clothes line Sleeping pad First aid kit Uniform Drinking cup Sweater/jacket/poncho Scout book Cap or hat Paper and pencil Hiking boots Personal hygiene kit Towel/washcloth Shower shoes Swim suit Tennis shoes Change of clothes Leader Gear: Clock Lantern American flag First aid kit Religious materials Rope/binder twine Program reference materials Clipboard, paper, pencils Game ideas Hope this helps.
Yours in Scouting, Rick Tyler ASM, Chief Seattle Council
InsaneScouter webmas...@insanescouter.org
I would like to thank everyone for the responses so far. Everything helps.
Scott Robertson Webmaster www.insanescouter.org www.webelos.org www.insaneweb.net
InsaneScouter webmas...@insanescouter.org
You all have brought up many good points. Some that others brought up in other places that I have posted this, and some no one has brought up.
For example how can Patrol method be better supported by a summer camp staff? How can directors better prepare and select staff to better teach merit badges? And how can a camp put on a better program for all?
Who knows where all of this is going, but I will do what I can to make camp a better place for all Scouts and Scouters.
InsaneScouter www.insanescouter.org
Brian Elfert belf...@visi.com
It is important to be prepared for the weather, but I see a lot of scouts bringing way too much stuff. They bring huge bags that they can't lift and an adult can barely lift.
The list you got might be just right.
My list for a scout: jacket uniform shirt tshirts for everyday wear troop tshirts (if provided) shorts long pants (two pair) swimsuit pocket knife socks and underwear for each day disposable camera (optional) flashlight with extra batteries toiletries towel and washcloth two pair shoes rain suit (not cheap poncho) sleeping bag sleeping pad (if not using cots) flip-flops or water shoes for shower and beach Brian Elfert
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
Our council has an information sheet for patents: http://home.epix.net/~hawkmtn/parentinfowebelos.pdf Here is our council's list: WHAT TO BRING TO CAMP. HERE IS A SUGGESTED LIST.
CLOTHING Scout Uniform(s) with socks Daily change of underwear Extra socks Tee shirts Jeans or long pants BEDDING Air mattress or foam pad Sleeping bag or blankets Pillow (if desired) SCOUT GEAR Pajamas Raincoat/poncho Canteen Casual shoes Flashlight Hiking boots/Shoes to get wet Pen, Pencil, pad Handkerchiefs Small knap sack PERSONAL ITEMS Toilet kit Towels Insect Repellent Comb or brush OPTIONAL Bible Camera Clock Comp*** Fishing Tackle Musical instruments MOST FIND IT CONVENIENT TO CARRY ALL THESE ITEMS IN A TRUNK WITH A COMBINATION LOCK.
(Please do not allow any valuables or excessive money to be brought to camp.) Here is a trick that many parents have used successfully. Give the boy a limited amount of money for snacks. Then when he calls home to say he ran out of mony tell him to look in his soap dish. The parents put extra money in the soap dish. Many boys are forced to admit they haven't been using soap and are glad to get the money and the parents are glad to encourage the boy to use soap.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhody...@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman
anymouse20 ...@yahoo.com (Any Mouse)
Cheap ponchos (not the "emergency ponchos") are better because raingear has a bad habit of getting lost or melted at summer camp.
Jeana jamrodrig...@yahoo.com
Thank you everyone! I'm ashamed to say I just didin't have time to contact anyone locally, and I knew this newgroup would have the answer.
Trying to get in touch with people by phone while you are at work isn't easy. ;) Being a mother of 2 boys and 2 girls; I know the "underwear story" is true. Usually the sisters think there brothers are disgusting. LOL Thanks again, Jean
"Ken" k...@quality.com
I tend to think replacement socks are most important. At this age the boys are constantly playing in water or slipping into lakes. And most of them are wearing cotton socks which takes days to dry.
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"sohn" s...@usol.com
...
Some of our Scouts are using LED headlamps and like them better than flashlights.
Ron
"Phil Schuman" pschuman_NO_SPAM...@interserv.com
http://users.rcn.com/pschuman/Camping_Checklist_FC2a.PDF
"Ken" k...@quality.com
I recently bought a Princeton 4 AAA LED light from Campmor.com. Wow, what a nice light. It could be left on Friday night and still be functioning when I unpack it on Sunday afternoon.
I stopped by the local sporting goods store this afternoon and, after seeing their large selection of MagLites, it left me thinking Mag had better upgrade to LED or get left in the dust.
...
Brian Elfert belf...@visi.com
Forgot a few things: pillow water bottle Scout Handbook watch cot (optional if not provided by camp) Sunscreen Brian Elfert
"Mr. A" can...@tampabay.nospam.rr.com
Sounds just like my Scouts. About 15 years ago, I made up a list of gear for our yearly trip to the Florida Keys and a different list for our trip to North Carolina summer camp. I noticed that they mostly wear the same clothes for several days even though I make sure they all shower every day.
Just their favorite clothes, I guess. So over the years the list has gotten shorter and shorter.
Sometimes Scouts lose parts of their uniform during summer camp, so in the interest of having one of the best uniformed troops at camp, I usually include in my leader gear some extra red loops, numbers, socks, etc.
What to bring to camp is not as important as what not to bring. At the bottom of our troop list we added "Do NOT bring any t-shirts with obscene language or heavy metal crap, no video games, no radios or CD players, or "anything else not approved personally by the Scoutmaster." Mr. A
"sohn" s...@usol.com
I suggest to both Scouts and parents to bring new bar of deodorant soap instead of liquid soap. If a parent complains that we didn't make sure that a Scout took a shower. I suggest that they look at the bar of soap and see if it looks like its been used. Be aware some deodorant soaps will attract raccoons.
In a conversation with a parent, we found out her son took showers but wore the same pair of underwear and same pair of socks the whole week of summer camp. Failing to change into clean underwear and socks kind of defeats the purpose of taking a shower.
Ron
Brian Elfert belf...@visi.com
We still find that any poncho except very high end ones will get damaged easier than a rainsuit. Ponchos tend to hook on things and get torn. A halfway decent rainsuit is $10 to $15.
Brian Elfert
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
In Pennsylvania, rain suits are much too hot in the summer. They make you wetter than being exposed to the rain. Also, with a rain suit, anything you are carrying gets wet. With a pancho, you stay cool and what you are carrying, even a backpack, keeps dry. Panchos are so cheap, one can take several for $10. I like to place a pancho over my bed when I am away from my tent. Then if the tent leaks or the rain blows in, I still have a dry bed.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhody...@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman
"USR1942(MC_CET)" mc99...@hotmail.com
I always carried a dozen silver heavy duty trash bags...not chic but gets the job done and my "non-scouting" parent de jure is ever greatful...:)) MCCET PMTNPO On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:17:45 GMT, "Stephen M. Henning"
"Ken" k...@quality.com
And . . .
I'm getting the distinct impression from forums that Gortex is really not as breathable as many would lead you to believe.
"Stephen M. Henning" <pigh...@aol.com> wrote in message ...
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