A nice bit of info on a Celtic fans love to hate
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"R. Singh" rrsin...@home.com
Narry a mention on this list or the newsgroup regarding the much maligned Walker and his most generous, caring and comp***ionate nature off the court.
Why so? I suspect if it were Pierce that were selected as one of the most generous athletes in all of sports, there would be a venerable love fest going on.
____________________________ The Celtics' own Antoine Walker has been selected in The Sporting News' special issue which honors the most giving athletes in all of sports.
The Celtics are very blessed to have a caring group of players on their team, but it is team captain Walker who leads the charge in the C's off-court efforts. When it comes to kids, Antoine definitely has a soft spot, and he keeps most of his efforts quiet as he does them to give back and not for the recognition.
Walker started the 8 Foundation in 1997. The mission of The 8 Foundation is to provide positive life experiences and opportunities for inner-city youth and to foster stable and loving environments for these young people by offering support to single parents. The foundation was established to benefit not only his hometown of Chicago, but also Boston, the community in which he plays.
"Having been raised by a single mom in a household of six children, I understand the support needed by both parents and children of inner-city communities. The Program allows me to provide urban young people with life skills and values upon which they can grow to become contributing and comp***ionate adults," Walker said of the Foundation. The 8 Foundation has already raised over a quarter of a million dollars to date.
Walker congratulates Anna Ling Pierce, one of this season's Heroes Among Us.
Through the foundation, Antoine funds an AAU basketball team that each season travels to Las Vegas for the National AAU Tournament for what he says "provides an opportunity for these kids to be seen by college scouts.
Otherwise, they would go unnoticed." Antoine pays for all air travel and accommodations for the team. Several players from his teams have received partial and full scholarships to universities as a result of this trip to Las Vegas.
Another major component of Antoine's Foundation is two week-long basketball camps held in Boston and his hometown of Chicago. The camps are completely free to children ages 7-13 from the inner-cities of both towns.
Unlike some other camps hosted by athletes, these camps are Antoine's pride and joy. He makes sure each camper is provided with athletic gear, serves them lunch and offers a wide range of inspirational speakers to teach the lessons of life and basketball. Antoine is as immersed in the camp as the campers, and there is never a point in the week where he is not involved and on the floor.
Antoine has also founded the Real Deal Program, which touches the lives of over 1,000 Boston Public eighth graders each year. Founded in 1998, this program rewards middle school students who become involved in their neighborhoods through innovative community service programs.
In addition, Antoine has started the Dorothy Walker Scholarship Fund in honor of his late grandmother, who p***ed away last season. The Fund will award a scholarship to a student who otherwise would not be able attend college due to financial hardships.
In addition to his own foundation work, Walker is heavily involved in the team's outreach initiatives, including Team Up and the Stay In School program, as well as serving as spokesman for the Celtics' Heroes Among Us program.
"Darren Long" sl...@1st.net
Didn't know, a cl*** act it seems, off the court.
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"Luke Mendoza" luke.mend...@home.com
That's where it really counts.. in the REAL world...
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kimm ...@mindspring.com (Kim Malo)
Well actually this IS the ng...
Ayup, y'think so, do you.
Don't think you're perhaps as biased one way as you're implying the rest of the ng is the other?
I'm shocked, shocked I say to hear that you don't recall my posting in praise of AW over the 8 foundation when he fouded it. A few years ago, but then you don't specify a time frame for people failing to mention it in your rant. At the same time, I still fail to see what it has to do with the sort of things most reasonable people on the ng got on his case about, such as his failure to recognize p***ing out of a double team as a viable option. And while his generosity is praiseworthy and admirable, that doesn't in the invalidate justifiable criticsm of his play, which is what he gets paid to be responsible for doing well.
Yeah, there are some people to whom he will never do anything right, but that's no call to unjustly and incorrectly chastise the entire group because of a bias the other way.
Best Kim, who finds one of the most annoying things about AW the fact that it sometimes seems like no one can just discuss him, they have to turn any such discussion into a holy war for or against him. ANY criticism is blind bashing, any praise is being a suck up apologist.
"hytem" 37851...@aol.com
Can't understand why the lowly Celtics get such good PR, While the much better Red Sox are anathema to the media.
Maybe it's because they are such a threat to the Yankees.
While the Celtics are more a threat to the Clippers.
Just guessing.
ggre ...@hopper.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
But Walker as a person is not that much maligned, his game is. You've got to separate the two. Gregory Greene g...@sauron.unh.edu
hrbla ...@aol.com (Harry)
sometimes seems like no one can just discuss him, they have to turn any such discussion into a holy war for or against him.< Wrong again, Kim. It's "one of the most annoying things about" this NG. For once, AW is totally innocent. 0 :- /
"Robert Chin" bobc...@shore.net
True dat.
"Robert Chin" bobc...@shore.net
Oh stop and get a grip. NO one HATES Antoine. Probably none of us in here even know him personally. Those of us who don't like him, our dislike only goes as far as his basketball game and the fact that the C's have a losing record.
"hytem" 37851...@aol.com
Very few fans know any public personalities.
And yet I often see commentary on a player's private life which suggests some fans believe everything they hear or read secondhand. Or maybe want to believe it.
We know that the media has become increasingly obsessed with the private lives of public figures.
That doesn't mean everything they say about someone is true.
Documentation is often non-existent. They get away with it because liabilities laws are weak.
Treat second hand information with a grain of salt.
And look for documentation.
rrsin ...@home.com (R. Singh)
I would argue that it is more because of his person, and not his game, that he is maligned as much as he is. If, as you say, he is maligned because of his game, Pierce would receive a similar amount of criticism for his inferior defense and tendency to force shots and not seek out the open man when double and triple teamed. Yet Pierce does not bear the wrath many in the NG bestow on Walker. What's the difference?
ggre...@hopper.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) wrote in message <>...
Garret Schenck tr...@direcpc.com
Thanks Robert and Greg for pointing this out.
Why is it there needs to be those on this NG who love to hit their soap box about this NG. This is hoops discussion, and that's all. The problem with Walker is on the court, and that problem is HUGE, because he won't play to his strengths. I think we all agree to that, don't we?
"Darren Long" sl...@1st.net
I can honestly say I met several Celtics. I met Cedric Maxwell, Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish once. Sat by Cornbread for an entire NBA game.
Can't say that even after that I knew him though. I don't give a damn about their personal life aside from drug use. If they have a rubber ducky, wear dresses, date small farm animals who cares as long as they keep a lid on it and play well.
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Brandon Stahl bst...@bu.edu
In fact, he seems to be a nice guy who really really wants to win. I have no beef with him as a person. He just sucks on the court, where it counts for the Celtics.
jsjs3 ...@cs.com (Js js 3313)
from a player anyday...You guys expect too much... hey put Walker on a team with a point guard and a center that are good and you would'nt be bitching..........
yeah he could use some help in his judgement on some of his shots. but hell he is who he is..
and that ain't so bad...
so piss on all you walker bashers JS
Garret Schenck tr...@direcpc.com
How's life under the bridge?
Up here you win games with your power forward playing like Chris Webber not Dale Ellis on N20.
jsjs3 ...@cs.com (Js js 3313)
Walker would be if we had shaq and maybe Jason Kidd... would he be good enough for you then? I just have to go back to 20 ppg,9rpgand 5 ***ists........how many other players have better numbers? Walker will be just fine with some more players around him.
JS
ggre ...@hopper.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Walker will be just fine with a decent NBA coach, not a yes man.
Gregory Greene g...@sauron.unh.edu
Brandon Stahl bst...@bu.edu
"JS"... put Walker on a team with a true point guard, and say bye bye to his 5 ***ists per game. Put him on a team with a center and say bye bye to his 10 boards a game. Put him on a team with a coach who knows how to win and won't tolerate poor shot selection and say bye bye to his 20 points. Understand?
jsjs3 ...@cs.com (Js js 3313)
Brandon Stahl replies....
"JS"... put Walker on a team with a true point guard, and say bye bye to would do just fine , while his ***ists might drop, I believe his rebounds would go up and his ppg would probally stay the same. Actually it might go up if you coached him right and he went to the hoop more considering he would get more free throws.
JS
Brandon Stahl bst...@bu.edu
I'd *love* to hear the rationale for an increased rebounding average next to, say, Mutombo. As for his ***ists, of course they'd drop... even walker jockers can't argue that one.
Now, his points. He takes an awful lot of shots to get to his 20 ppg average. More importantly, he's a fairly effective 3 point shooter for his position. A good coach, however, would never tolerate all the threes he takes. Take that aspect of his game away and he doesn't have a typical PF game to fall back on. We agree at least with this much I suspect. You say then that he should go inside more. I could not agree with you more. However, his effectiveness here is greatly limited by a number of things: 1. desire to do the spectacular 2. poor shooting, even when just a few feet from the basket 3. fear - or at least avoidance - of contact ... very quick to settle for the off balance 9 footer from behind the backboard rather do a Pierce like lean in for an easy trip to the free throw line 4. the absence of any true post game.
Some say he has an inside game (though he doesn't) but even those folks recognize, usually, that any inside "game" he has is more off the dribble than a post up.
That said, if walker is truly going to one day limit himself to only good shots and witness a jump in his FG%, then I see no even remote possibility for him to be more than a 12 ppg player. Not too many 12 ppg players draw double teams. People laugh when I use comparisons to other PF's who only score 12 points. A cl***ic example was Brian Grant... I can't tell you how many walker jockers gave the old "we give up too many points" line. That was proved to be a load of crap. Grant not only finished with a career high 15.2 ppg, but was (if my math is correct) scoring 18.1 PPG prior to Alonzo's return. Unlike our buddy Antoine, however, Grant shot 48% on the year, which is what I expect from a quality PF. Is it really so crazy, then, to ***ume that any number of PF's in this league could quite easily be 20 ppg scorers if their coaches allowed them to shoot down to 41%??? By this NG's criteria, they would all become top PF's if they did, though I suspect each of their respective teams would suffer greatly. Imagine Bo Outlaw being the focus of an offense??? Sure, he can get you 20 ppg if needed to. His team, however, like Walker's, would suffer. This is what's gone on for five consecutive years.
jsjs3 ...@cs.com (Js js 3313)
played closer to the basket I would suppose he'd get more his fg% would rise People laugh when I use comparisons to other PF's who only score 12 JS replies: without a competent surrounding team I believe he had no choice but to put the burden of scoring on his shoulders and forced some shots.
Imagine Bo Outlaw being the focus of an would not have to be carrying the load.Now last year when Pierce came thru as a good player Antione p***ed and set him up nicely. I hope this year Johnson proves worthy of our pick. Next year we get a true point guard. The following year we have cap room and we go after say Duncan . Now Walker has a competent cast around him and he dosen't have to carry the load and I'd be thrilled if his scoring went down and we won .But I still believe he wouldl get near 20 ppg and 10 boards Look man, he isn't the antichrist... we can build around him and Pierce JS
Brandon Stahl bst...@bu.edu
Forget where he plays... how does playing next to a big man who gets a lot of rebounds get walker more boards?
Perhaps. Of course he isn't a very accurate shooter to start with.
However, yes, it should go up. How does an improved fg% translate into more or even the same points per game? To get those better shots he'll have to shoot less. That means fewer points.
Oh please. Flip the coin... Pierce was in the same situation as Walker for two years now and he's a 180 degree difference from Walker in terms of this very issue. It's a personality thing. McGrady had NO supporting cast this year, yet he managed to find good shots. KG has carried the Wolves for many years now... you don't see him heaving up brick after brick. If he has to force shots at a rate of 41%, as he did, it's time to let someone else force those shots, cause it doesn't get a whole lot worse.
So? What role will he play? He's a sub par rebounder and a poor shooter. He doesn't get to the line and has no post up game. What good is he?
And still finished with one of his worst seasons to date. Go figure.
Add a few more good players to this team, and even the CBA would not want him.
Oh, ok. With Duncan, Pierce, and a "worthy" Johnson, Walker will still somehow get 20 ppg. Of course... Pierce is a player worth building around. Walker is a scrub. He's done nothing but help ruin this team for half a decade. He thinks he's mr.
smooth while in truth he's mr. hack. He has no concept of team basketball. He is a bad shooter. Can't drive. Doesn't rebound adequately for a PF. Shies away from contact. Insists on playing point guard even when have pg's on the floor. Heaves threes all game, especially untimely ones. That's not the kind of player you build a team around unless your goal is to lose, lose, lose.
jsjs3 ...@cs.com (Js js 3313)
well Brandon I would believe that if you were closer to the basket you would get more boards than if you were chucking up 3's and beside look at the big 3 . ie Bird,Mchale and Parrish... now noway am I trying to suggest Walker is as good as anyone of them but my point is while Parrish was a good rebounder Bird and Mchale still got 10 + boards a game. now just use common sense Brandon if Mutombo got say 13 boards a game are you trying to tell me there are no other rebounds to be had?
you can't take away the fact he had alot of ***ists last year Brandon , now come on, better fg% means more shots go in.
.
Well I guess they are better than Walker but still why can't you except the fact that Walker is on our team and he can contribute and he is better than most of the fowards out there.
What role will he play? He's a sub par rebounder and a poor 10 boards a game is decent I believe 19 th in the league last year I hope this year Johnson 10 boards a game is rebounding Brandon Shies away from contact. Insists on playing point who the hell is our great point guard?
Heaves threes all game, bunch of 2nd stringers Walker is the 2nd best player on the team.
Learn to live with it. and also what the hell was mr mvp Iverson's fg%.... just for the hell of it I'm curious....
Also Brandon I don't give a rats *** if Walkers points go down .. as long as we win my whole point is that I believe he does have talent and can help us win.
JS
Brandon Stahl bst...@bu.edu
There would be fewer rebounds to be had than the current C's situation, yes. Your comparison to the above players lands astray as those were all good rebounders. Walker is not. That's evidenced by watching him play or by simply looking at his rebounds per minute.
Is that really what you think?
Let's see....
41%... 41 out of 100 by definition.
For him to improve that number to say 45%, he will have to take fewer shots (unless he just more accurately makes his current shots). Logic 101. Don't know how many fewer, no one does, but say 70 shots. He would then make, at 45%, 32 shots. That is fewer points. Fewer shots go in.
Give me an argument to show / prove he's better than most of the PF's out there. Is he better than Jerome Williams? Is he better than Brian Grant? Is he better than KG? Or McDyess? Or Malone? Or Webber? Or Brand? Or D Davis? Or A Davis? Or D Nowitzki? Or C Robinson? Or D Fortson? Or M Taylor? Or Duncan? Or H Grant? Or L Wright? Etc etc etc....
I'd say no no no no no no no......
Some of those guys are not even up for debate any longer (duncan, webber, nowitzki, brand, grant, mcdyess). Others, such as Wright, scores ( in Walker-Minutes) 18.6 ppg along with 11.3 rebounds, 2 ***ists, and 1.4 blocks. He shoots 44.8% to boot. So how is Walker better than that? Please enlighten us.
But he plays more minutes than most. On a per minute basis, it's near the *bottom* for PFs. See above comment.
Hmm... rereading my post, I see no "great" included. You must have misread. It does it matter. Any point guard. A point guard gets the ball up the floor. KA did this fine. Billups as well. Barros also.
Even Palacio. None were "great", but that does not excuse Walker dominating the ball by not p***ing it to a guard once he rebounded or by demanding it on a p*** at halfcourt. That's selfish and destructive to the team.
Walker is the 2nd worst player on the team. McCarty being the worst.
Learn to live with it? Have no fear. I'm not suicidal, though I deeply appreciate your concern. If you meant "accept it", then I must say, NO, I will not accept it. I will continue to bitch and moan and complain so long as he plays like he as for five straight years --- namely, like a born loser.
Iverson wouldn't have made my top 10 list for MVP. I was on record at the time as calling him the LVP to ever earn MVP. However, you simply can't compare a SG fg% to a PF fg%. Everyone knows that.
Yet you give no examples of such talent and he has not helped us win.
His first year saw the franchise's worst record EVER. He was very much an "impact player". The team has "risen to mediocrity" by adding other players, such as Pierce. But even the stardom of Pierce can not overcome the detriment of Walker.
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