A suggestion...
Related Topics
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
I realize (sp?) that people here are particularly unfavourable towards natural alternatives. I understand that spammers have been trying to peddle their shit to you before, and as such I understand your aggression. I am not going to suggest alternatives to the traditional meds, but supplements the could uin theory, help to limit the dosage of the medication.
As an ecstasy user, the subject of pre-loading and post-loading is one that is familiar to me, but might be new to you. Allow me to explain: Ecstasy depletes serotonin levels. L-5-hydroxytryptophan is an amino acid that is metabolised to serotonin. The benefit of taking 5HTP before and after ecstasy use is well known now thanks to drug related news groups, as a result many users now do not suffer increased tolerance to the drug as they might have done before.
Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall deplete adrenaline and dopamine in the long term, and as a result of this lowered production, more of the drug in use is required to attain the same level of stimulation. L-tyrosine, and DL-Phenylalanine are amino acids that convert to these neurotransmitters in the brain. In theory, consumption of these aminos could result in a reduction in tolerance, and thus a reduction in the amount of synthetic drug that needs to be consumed. Clearly, this would be no bad thing.
Also, downgrading of the dopamine has been ***osciated with Parkinsonism in later life. Dopamine's metabolites are quite toxic... one of it's metaolites is hydrogen peroxide. The same stuff you bleach your hair with. I cannot cite any research, however, I would suggest that having extra amounts of this stuff hanging around the brain would be undesirable. A way of helping the brain with this excess would be to consume good dosages of antioxidants, Alpha-Lipoic Acid has been shown to be particularly effective in protecting against ecstasy related brain damage (which is caused by the toxicity of dopamine metabolites). I would suggest in addition to ALA, Vit C and Vit E.
As I said before, I have no alterior motives in posting this. I expect to be diagnosed with ADD relatively soon, and if I am presented with stimulant meds, then I plan on protecting my brain from any *potential* harm. I would like to say that I am not a doctor, and am in no way qualified to offer medical advice. But, hopefully, somebody might find some use for the info I posted here.
Thanks, Daz
Joe Parsons j...@yankeemedia.net
Cite, please?
Joe Parsons
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
Jim Manson J...@Manson.com
Then why are you posting medical advice?
virgin ...@aol.com (Virginiaz)
Well, they DO deplete dope in the short term, and the body has to regenernate.
And sometimes (as with cocaine use), the dope stores may contintue to be seriously depleted for a long time. And this explains why, after repeated medication doses through the course of a day, later doses may provide no benefit -- because the daily stores are depleted, and no amount of medication will change this deficit. As Dr. Ratey points out, consistent vigorous exercise helps regenerate dope.
But as for long-term depletion, that's an interesting question. With ecstacy (MDA), the danger is that too much serotonin literally fries the neuroreceptors. But it is true that new research indicates alpha-lipoic [sp.] acid can play a protective role, reducing some of the damage. I personally think that stims (accelerated metabolism) on a daily basis do deplete the body of many needed nutrients, and it's wise to replace these nutrients, which are not easily acquired through diet. And women should be especially vigilant about replacing calcium, which any diuretic-type drug will draw from the bones.
<<Subject: Re: A suggestion...
From: Joe Parsons <j...@yankeemedia.net> Date: Thu, Jan 18, 2001 10:32 PM Message-id: <hmre6t8qans8uqnc430o92cjiu1sqmr9vl@4ax.com> [snip] Cite, please?
Joe Parsons
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
Sorry mate, I was just posting information that *MAY* prove helpful to some people who are willing to try it. I have used amphetamine previously, and have found that supplementing the mentioned aminos helps to prevent tolerance.
If you don't want to use this info, feel free to ignore it.
Daz
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
I'm looking... the only thing I have come across so far looks like some kind of DARE crap. Have a look: http://www.kci.org/meth_info/sites/meth_psycho.htm As I mentioned, I speak from experience with stimulant drugs. Subjectively, I find that supplementing with certain aminos helps prevent tolerance. YMMV.
Daz
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
Another, admittedly weakly worded study: http://www.breggin.com/RitalinNIHSPEECH.html Daz
Joe Parsons j...@yankeemedia.net
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
Joe Parsons j...@yankeemedia.net
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
"Cherit" crgeo...@i-55.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chemical Deficiency
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Serotonin is one of the major chemicals in the brain involved in communication between individual nerves, i.e., it is a neurotransmitter.
Serotonin is especially common in the part of the brain controlling emotions, called the limbic system, and in the part of the brain necessary for paying attention, for being motivated to do things, and for thinking before acting, located in the prefrontal lobes. Defects in serotonin have been postulated as causing all of the disorders listed above, including alcoholism and drug addiction. Because of this we suspect that Tourette syndrome might be caused by a genetic defect in how the body produces serotonin.
To test this we examined the blood levels of serotonin in 1,440 and ADHD patients, their parents, and controls. This showed that there was a significant decrease in serotonin levels in patients with both TS and ADHD, as well as in their parents.5 Since serotonin is made from tryptophan, a normal component of protein in the diet, we also examined tryptophan levels.
They were also significantly decreased. This caused us to suspect that the gene causing TS, and many cases of ADHD and alcoholism, might be tryptophan oxygenase. This gene breaks down tryptophan. If a mutation made this gene do its job too well, tryptophan would be broken down too fast and there would be too little left over to make normal amounts of serotonin. Too little serotonin in the brain could lead to all of the behavioral problems ***ociated with TS, including the addictive behaviors.
To study this further we cloned the human trytophan oxygenase gene and found it was located on long arm of chromosome number 4, in band 3.1. Tempting evidence that we are on the right track has come from a study by Dr. S. Hill and colleagues of 35 families containing more than one male with early-onset alcoholism. Using a method called linkage analysis, she found preliminary evidence that the gene for early-onset, hereditary alcoholism might be in the same band as trytophan oxygenase, 4q3.1 suggesting they could be one and the same gene.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Dopamine in TS, ADHD and Alcoholism
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Dopamine is a second major neurotransmitter in the brain. While it is important in controlling muscle movement, like serotonin it is also present in the limbic system and prefrontal lobes and thus plays a role in emotions, attention and motivation. It is also important in the reward pathway or pleasure centers of the brain. In order for neurotransmitters to work, they have to bind to receptors. For dopamine, five different types of receptor genes have been described.
In March of 1990 Blum, Noble and colleagues reported that a mutation of the dopamine D2 receptor gene(D2A1) was present in 69% of severe alcoholics, versus 20% of non-alcoholic controls. Since defects in dopamine metabolism have also been implicated in TS, this led us to wonder whether the D2A1 mutation was unique to alcoholism or whether it might be ***ociated with TS and ADHD as well. Eventually wae examined over 850 patients with a wide range of disorders, and compared them with controls. We found that in a total of 374 controls, 25% carried the D2A1 mutation. By contrast the D2A1 mutation was present in 40% to 55% of patients with TS, ADHD, alcoholism, autism, and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)9. PTSD is a behavioral disorder common in Vietnam Veterans who experienced severe combat conditions. The D2A1 mutation was not increased in frequency in patients with depression, panic attacks, obesity or Parkinson's Disease. The studies to date suggest that more severe the alcoholism or the TS, the more likely it is that the D2A1 mutation is also present.
When the families were studied, it became apparent that the D2A1 mutation was not the major gene causing any of these disorders. These genes are yet to be discovered. In genetics we speak of the degree of expression of a gene. If a gene is fully expressed the symptoms are more severe. The D2A1 mutation appeared to be playing a role in modifying the degree of expression of these yet to be discovered genes. The D2A1 mutation appears to be related to addictive and impulsive behavior and susceptibility to stress.
A theory that incorporates all of these observations is explained here. It is know that serotonin and dopamine metabolism are tightly interlinked in the brain, forming an axis in which defects in serotonin and hypersensitivity to dopamine have the same effect on aggressive and impulsive behaviors. We believe that defects in the dopamine D receptor caused by the D2A1 allele result in hypersensitivity to dopamine in other parts of the brain. Any upset in this balance causes a variety of behavioral problems. We suggest that a common gene affecting serotonin metabolism, such as the Tourette syndrome gene, causes the major tilt of this axis, but modifying genes, such as the D2A1 allele, adds further tilting. This genetic background then interacts with environmental factors and a large dose of random unpredictability, i.e., chaos, to produce a wide variety of behavioral disorders in almost any combination.
These observations begin to open the door to our understanding of TS, ADHD, addictive and other behaviors.
First, it is the first time that specific genetic abnormalities have been identified in connection with these disorders. These findings confirm the suspicion that genetic factors do play an important role.
Second, these findings show that mutations that directly affect specific receptors may affect behavior and that specific defects in dopamine receptors may play a role in addictive behaviors.
Third, they show that entities such as childhood ADHD may be genetically caused and not due to poor parenting or other environmental factors.
Fourth, they support the concept of spectrum disorders, i.e., a specific gene or genes causing an interrelated group of behavioral disorders, previously thought to be separate entities. TS, ADHD, alcoholism, drug abuse, conduct disorder, autism, and PTSD are part of this spectrum. Given the same genetic make-up, environmental factors and random chance may determine which of these disorders, if any, a person may develop.
Fifth, these findings may open the way to new concepts of treatment of addictive behaviors. The more that addictions are seen as biochemically and genetically caused defects, the more likely it is that biochemically approaches, such as medications to replace defective chemicals, will come to play a role in their treatment.
--
I am a distributor of the nutritional products which helped my son & family..
http://help4add-adhd.faithweb.com/ ...
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
Yup. This is a test using rats as subjects, so the relevance can be disputed, but nonetheless: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&... ds=11129500&dopt=Abstract I have noted the large doages, but rats are, compared to humans, very insensitive to stimulant meds.
Daz
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
Actually, that site is just awful. I was under the impression that Desoxyn was pharmaceutical grade methampetamine, though...
Daz
Mark Probert markpr...@my-deja.com
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui You cannot cite a Medline or PublicMED article in that manner. Find the rat study and provide a copy of the abstract, if one is available.
Also, while you are at it, document that rats are very insensitive to stimulant meds when compared to humans, and that it is relevant to the type of geneticly engineered rat that was used in the study.
--
Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts--DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
Yup. That's what I meant. My choice of wording was indeed wrong, depletion should be replaced with lowered production. But, I am still having trounble finding references...
Daz
"Mitch S" Mit...@aztec.asu.edu
Well thought out, well said, but I respectfully disagree with you. Most of my problem is related to the stuff you're talking about is illegal. I favor an even more minimalist approach.
I've been taken to task on this group before as I use Neurofeedback (NF) to help control my ADD and my son's ADD / ADHD. I am not a reseller of this equipment and I encourage people to find a means of treatment that suits their beliefs. One of the big factors in favor of NF, is there are no meds added to the body, so there are no dosage problems to deal with.
Additionally, the same equipment may be used to truly enhance the functioning of the mind without the depletion effects you were referring to.
It's another alternative. Consider it and see if it's the correct choice for you.
Joe Parsons j...@yankeemedia.net
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
Joe Parsons j...@yankeemedia.net
That's a little better--that's an abstract of a study about "amphetamine-induced dopamine depletion" in rats. You should keep in mind, however, that 1) methylphenidate is not an amphetamine; 2) parenteral administration (injection, in this case) of a drug is quite different from oral ingestion; and 3) the dosage of 60 mg per kg is just a tad higher than a therapeutic dosage. That would be equivalent to a 175 lb. adult receiving a dosage of 4,800 mg--that could be made up of two and a half bottles of 20 mg Ritalin tablets, put into solution--and injected into the subject.
"You might feel a little buzz here, Mr. Jones..." Joe Parsons
----------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Multimedia production and delivery--served with a SMILe http://www.yankeemedia.net
Mark Probert markpr...@my-deja.com
Let's remove the theory part....
The manufacturers of supplements have, for years, made these claims.
Finally, the FTC told them to either prove their claims, of to quit making them.
They quit making them. They couldn't prove squat.
(And, one couldn't even list the 699 hospitals that it claimed used their substance.) Care to post verifiable proof of that? Citations in peer reviewed journals will do nicely. Anything less, you are spreading manure.
and as a result of this lowered production, more of the drug neurotransmitters in I wonder why levodopa is used as a treatment for Parkinson's. NOT.
Dopamine's metabolites are quite toxic... one of it's metaolites I like my receptors nice and white.
I cannot Yep. Spreading manure.
however, I would suggest that having extra amounts of What makes you think (and that is a term I use lightly considering the rest of your blather) that medication reduces OR increases the amount of dopamine. Perhaps medication merely makes the receptors just use what is available in a more efficient manner.
A way of helping antioxidants, Totally disproven. Remember the supplement manufacturers I mentioned?
One was a pusher of an anti-oxidant.
Vit E.
I would suggest not using illegal substances. If you don't break it, you do not have to fix it.
Your may not have an *alterior* motive, BUT, that does not rule out an ULTERIOR motive.
I expect to be If you don't abuse it, you won't lose it.
I would Why am I not surprised?
and am in no way qualified to offer Another non-surprise!
But, hopefully, somebody might find some use for the info I If you print it on real thin papers, and place it on rolls, it cvan make good humorous reading before using that paper for the appropriate purpose.
--
Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts--DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Mark Probert markpr...@my-deja.com
Nah, I feel free to make you prove it, with something other than your factless blatherings.
--
Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts--DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
I have no doubt that Ritalin and the other drugs used to treat ADD do their job extremely well, and relatively safely. I agree too, that abuse potential has nothing to do with appropriateness in therapeutic use. However, the fact is that long term use of stimulants will create a tolerance effect. If it is possible to reduce that effect through supplementation, I think our respective brains will be much better off for it.
Certainly, I have a hard time seeing how necking a couple grammes of amino acids and vitamins everyday could be seen as harmful...
True. I did try to make myself clear in my first post that knocking theories practices was not my intention, but to share some knowledge that some *might*find useful.
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
"amphetamine-induced LOL. I recall reading that rats are far less sensitive to this type of drug than humans. I'll have a look for some evidence. But, if you look at the dosages for rat tests on other stimulant drugs, they are all in a similarly ludicrous dosage.
BTW, I was refering not only to Ritalin (a drug I know considerably less about. All I know is that it blocks the re-uptake of dopa and nor-epi, like cocaine), but Adderall and Desoxyn, which most certainly are Amphetamine based.
Daz
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
<snipped> The drug-studies I am talking about do involve illegal drugs, however, MDMA is related quite closely to Adderall and Desoxyn, and as such the information *MIGHT* be relevant.
I will do that, thank you for your advice.
Daz
"Daz" dr...@bluelight.nu
I fear you might be delirious. How you could 'make' me do anything by posting a message here would involve powers reaching far beyond the understanding of science.
It seems my post has hit a nerve with you. For what it's worth, I apologize.
Daz
Mark Probert markpr...@my-deja.com
Not me. I do not abuse substances, only those who spew unsubstantiated manure.
How you could 'make' me do anything by Nah. I justr will persist in pointing out that you are posting your idle speculation and that you have absolutely no proof of what your are bleating.
apologize.
Missed my nerve and hit my ABSD (automatic bullshit detector.) And, your so-called knowledge of how medications work, and how the brain functions leaves a lot to be desired...like facts.
Which, BTW, you have still yet to use to substantiate your bleatings.
--
Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts--DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Mark Probert markpr...@my-deja.com
IOW, you sdo not really know. Idle speculation.
--
Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts--DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
| To Top |