Applying merit badges to rank advancement
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"David M" d...@somewhere.com
Do merit badges required for a rank have to be earned while at the previous rank? In other words, can merit badges earned while a Tenderfoot Scout or Second Cl*** Scout be applied to the requirement for Star? Though the requirement does not state 'while a first cl*** scout' ,the requirement for Life Scout does say 'Earn five more merit badges'. Of course it is followed up with 'so that you have 11 in all'.
I just wonder if a Scout learns more doing a merit badge as he progresses through the ranks than if he earns most of them while a young Scout. And in most cases, many are earned at summer camp where they are taught by Scouts not much older than they are. In these circumstances, does the Scout really get out of the merit badge program what is intended?
David McBride Troop 74 - Fayetteville, Georgia Pardon my spam deterrent email - please post replies to group
j ...@ti.com
Nope, read the requirements and don't read into them. It is fairly straight forward. for example for Life it reads 3.Earn 5 more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any 3 more from the required list for Eagle.
___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ No where does it say 'during'.
Same for Star 3.Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle.* What he 'learns' is not at issue, it is what he has earned that is at issue.
Unfortunately learned and earned don't have to be the same thing.
Note on MB, the Counselor has to be SM approved. The Counselor does the testing no matter who taught. so your comment about younger Scouts teaching has no bearing.
John "Doc" Holladay SM t1000 Plano, Tx
ltcro ...@aol.com (LTCROGER)
I've been doing this for more than forty years. I'm an Eagle Scout as are my 2 oldest sons and my youngest will be there soon. There is no restriction as to when the merit badges are earned. The scout need only have the required badges.
If that were not the case, it would mean that if a scout has earned his badges for the next rank and still has more time to wait for the rank, he would not be able to work on any other required bqdges until his next board. This not what they mean. Let the scout earn their badges when then can.
"David M" d...@somewhere.com
In a summer camp situation, who is the merit badge counselor? The scout teaching the merit badge? The camp directory. Unfortunately in my few years at summer camp, the quality of the merit badge cl*** varies from very good to very poor, even at the same camp.
I understand your points though. I guess I am not as worried about when they earn it as the lack of quality control at summer camps.
Thanks for your input.
David
"David M" d...@somewhere.com
I think even if a Scout was required to do the badges at each rank, and he still ran out of time, there would be other things for him to do to help out with the program.
I guess I concede that there really is no requirement on when the merit badge is earned. I just feel that when many of the badges are earned early in the program the Scout suffers in two ways. One, the merit badges may distract from other portions of the program such as Patrol duties and outdoor skills. (And yes I understand that some of the badges would help reinforce certain skills.) Secondly, I wonder if the Scout would not get more out of the experience of doing some of the badges if done later in his Scout career.
Personally, for younger scouts, I would like to see more emphasis on other aspects of the program, bringing merit badges in to help augment and 'older scout' program.
Anyway, I was just curious what other people thought.
Thanks for your comments, David ...
"Stephen and Clare Chatot" ccha...@home.com
David, You can earn merit badges at any time and apply them to the rank that requires them.
...
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
It is whoever signs the card. Sometimes it is the program director, and sometimes it is the staff member doing the actual counseling.
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Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to shenn...@fast.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
"Jay Walker" wwwal...@ix.netcom.com
In keeping with the Urban Legends theme... here is one that is not a legend...
Scoutmasters that want to control when Scouts may earn any merit badge, including those offered at summer camp programs, District/Council "Advancement Days" or any other event... CAN DO SO... and for pretty much any reason he chooses. If the Scoutmaster does not sign (or approve in some other established manor) the "Blue Card" and ***ign the specific merit badge councilor of his choice, the Scout can not complete the badge.
We had a real "problem" with this recently. It involved a parent (not the Scout) that had decided his kid was going to be an eleven-year old Eagle...
BTW, this is possible with a child that is "home schooled" Our Troop policy and philosophy do not run in that direction. The parent signed the boy up for every conceivable merit badge. When the first cards were presented to the advancement committee, they were rejected because they did not have the Scoutmaster's signature....
Some on this group will insist that only the Merit Badge Councilor's signature is required and, if the Scout (or in this case the parent) finds someone on the Council approved list that will sign the card it is then a "done deal"... BTW, The Unit Commissioner and the District Commissioner both initially supported this position.
That was not the conclusion that was reached in our Council however. The "appeal", though informal, upheld the Unit's procedure. The Scout then transferred to another area Unit that accepted his completed merit badge cards... Unfortunately, the boy had very little interest in his parents dream and "dropped out" before earning his Eagle. Dad lost interest after it became apparent his son would not be "the youngest Eagle"...
So the Urban Legend is: "Scouts do not have to have the Scoutmaster's approval to start on any merit badge"... They DO. (weather or not the card has to be signed, is matter of some controversy though!) The second related Urban Legend.. "If the Scoutmaster will not sign the "Blue Card" then the Unit Commissioner can"... Ours found out his chain on this issue is pretty short <}:-) The last related Urban Legand... "Merit badges earned at summer camp or other District/Council activity are "exempt" and do not require Scoutmastre's approval"
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Jay Walker
j ...@ti.com
Seen the same problems at summer camp. For critical topics we take care of 'em ourselves (ie don't let guys sign up at summer camp for Citizenship, Camping, WS, Climbing and a few others that we can do with ease, and right). As SM it is my right o 'designate' the MB counselor - so If I don't trust one I get our Scouts one I do trust.
Went ot Camp Alexander, Co last year (and applied the above) our 35 Scouts only came away with bit over 60 MB done and about 20 partials (blank - last year Swimming MB requirements). O, about 10 of the 60 were done in the campsite by our ASMs during off hours.
Life aint near as hard when you use your head :) John "Doc" Holladay SM T1000 Plano, Tx
Larry__Weiss l...@airmail.net
If memory serves me correctly (maybe a big "if" <grin>) when I was a Boy Scout in the mid-1960's, you had to wait until you earned First Cl*** rank before beginning any merit badge work (that was also when you had to learn Morse Code to get that far).
Obviously that has changed. Can anyone confirm my memory, and maybe recall when and why that was changed?
- Larry Weiss, l...@airmail.net
j ...@ti.com
What you recall is sometimes a unit requirement - not authorized by BSA. No where does BSA say one has to wait. right or wrong, it is the rule.
John "Doc" Holladay SM T1000 Plano, Tx
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
You example disproved this. The second Scoutmaster accepted cards he had not approved since technically approval must be obtained before the boy starts on the badge. However, the second Scoutmaster elected to not make an issue of it. In other words, the Scouts only need the approval to start a merit badge if the Scoutmaster enforces this rule.
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Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to shenn...@fast.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
You can only earn merit badges while a Boy Scout, not before. We have had a problem with some Webelos trying to earn merit badges.
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Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to shenn...@fast.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
Larry__Weiss l...@airmail.net
No doubt that that is the current rule. What I'm trying to recall would be something that would be a straightforwards reading from the BSA Handbook of the time (say 1965-1967).
I tried to research it using the Web, but I really need some BSA Handbooks from that era to look it up. At least can you confirm that one used to have to learn Morse Code to get past First Cl*** in the sixties BSA era?
If anyone knows a website that contains the history of rank requirements I'd love to learn of it. Something similar to http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/eagle/EagleHistory.html - Larry Weiss
s ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
Two points: 1. Using First Aid MB as an example, the 15-16 year old can get more out of and actually do a better job than a 12 year old in a skill which could save a life.. thus I think that MB should be earned later.
However one can't restrict when a registered Scout earns the badge.
2. It's against the rules but many troops have done it for decades -
retest (to some degree) every Scout at a BoR for every MB earned. The BSA rule in my opinion is nothing more than social engineering of a welfare program to make it easier for everyone to advance. I've always lived in areas where the cream will rise to the top without being given a 50 yard head start for a 100 yard dash. I don't submit the suggestion as legitimate, only as a means for producing better quality Eagles.
Hugh
s ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
Doc, we're at our second house to get away from the snow and my Handbook from the early 40s is not available. But, as I recall, a Scout back then had to be a certain rank before he could start p***ing MBs.
Hugh
Vic Radin vra...@ameritech.net
Larry-
You are correct on both items. I've posted scans of the 60's advancement cards for your perusal and amusement- find them at: http://photos.yahoo.com/netdoc46 look in the Scout folder. The actual First Cl*** requirement was for signalling, "Req 9: Send and receive a message of at least 20 words, using either international Morse or semaphore codes and necessary process signals. The boy shall have free choice between Morse code and semaphore. Obviously, he must know the code by heart to meet this test" Official rules for earning merit badges (begin direct quote): "If you are Second Cl*** or above, you can earn any merit badge.
However, the following merit badges require that you do certain specific things before qualifying for them:" (follows list of merit badge and FIRST CL*** RANK requirement prerequisite) "This only makes sure that the preparatory First Cl*** tests are done first before you tackle the more complcated merit badge in the same subject. All other merit badges may be earned without conditions." (End direct quote) This is copied directly from Page 13 of the _Boy_Scout_Requirements_1969_ Copyright 1969, Item No: 3216 225M169 My handbooks and other requirement books of the same period have the same prerequisites for merit badges, and show the signalling requirement, so this was in effect thru the 60's and I believe into the 70's when there was the "Great Requirement Revisions".
Hope this clears up the confusion- Scoutmaster permission or not, a Scout in the 60's HAD TO BE at least 2nd cl*** to work on merit badges.
Period. Them's the rules in the book.
Vic Radin, Scoutmaster- Troop 12 Evanston, Illinois
Vic Radin vra...@ameritech.net
Hugh, In a reply to Lary Weiss I wrote: Official rules for earning merit badges (begin direct quote): "If you are Second Cl*** or above, you can earn any merit badge.
However, the following merit badges require that you do certain specific things before qualifying for them:" (follows list of merit badge and FIRST CL*** RANK requirement prerequisite) "This only makes sure that the preparatory First Cl*** tests are done first before you tackle the more complcated merit badge in the same subject. All other merit badges may be earned without conditions." (End direct quote) This is copied directly from Page 13 of the _Boy_Scout_Requirements_1969_ Copyright 1969, Item No: 3216 225M169 Nothing wrong with your memory <grin>.
Vic Radin Scoutmaster, Troop 12 Evanston, Illinois
Larry__Weiss l...@airmail.net
Well, almost correct (I was recalling having to wait until First Cl*** to earn any MB).
Anyway, what I'd like to understand is why they changed it to the requirements as worded today. Simplicity might be one reason.
I'd prefer each MB to have a minimal rank requirement condition before that MB could be credited (not started, but credited).
Create some true incentives to gaining that First Cl*** rank (First Cl*** is probably the most significant rank achievement when you consider the totality of all boys who enter into Boy Scouting...not just those who enjoy a membership all the way to age 18).
It might turn out that achieving First Cl*** is a big boost to continued involvement in Scouting for most boys.
- Larry Weiss
Larry__Weiss l...@airmail.net
Here's the difference between Eagle required MBs in '67 (my youth) and today: 1967: 1999: Personal Fitness Personal Fitness Personal Management Family Life Citizenship in the Community Citizenship in the Community Citizenship in the Nation Citizenship in the Nation Citizenship in the World Communications Safety First Aid First Aid Lifesaving Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving Swimming Cycling OR Hiking OR Swimming Camping Camping Cooking Conservation of Natural Resources Environmental Science Nature I lined them up if I could and tried to group to indicate order of: duty to self duty to others preparation for outdoor life outdoor life I like the evolution in spite of the added complexity of the ones where you choose one from a set. There was some redundancy in the '67 reqs (like Conservation and Nature) that was removed to make room for the emphasis on Family and World Citizenship. The one important MB that's currently not required is Safety. I guess there's First Aid still there to attend to the inattention to Safety, but it I'd like to see Safety added back in as an Eagle required MB.
- Larry Weiss
"Jay Walker" wwwal...@sp.ix.netcom.com
I think you are going around in circles... we either have a policy or we do not!
Do you mean one Scoutmaster that doesn't follow the rules creates a general exception for all Scouts... That is BS and you know it!.... The Scoutmaster's approval IS required before the merit badge is started... If the Scoutmaster chooses to "overlook" this requirement, that is indeed a Unit issue... Lets stick to what the policy is... Scoutmaster approval IS required and it can be withheld at his pleasure...
It seems to me that you in particular would be reinforcing the fact that pre-approval from the Scoutmaster IS the policy and it should be followed...
Those that choose to overlook this really should "know better". Is there some "secret" correspondence that has changed this that we do not yet know about?... Is the Scoutmaster's Handbook going to be revised to remove this requirement soon?... Somehow, I do not think so! The policy is in-place for a good reason.
My point was that a parent challenged the Scoutmasters authority and lost on this one... Maybe others can benefit from the experience.
If your point is that the Scout CAN start on the merit badge at anytime...
well I guess then you are "technically correct"... The Unit may and probably should refuse to accept work completed without the Scoutmasters approval though... especially if the intent was to circumvent established Unit advancement policy.
The response to the original post and to the general theme of many that responded with concerns about the perceived inability to control the quality of the Unit merit badge program is that the Scoutmaster can indeed establish and enforce a merit badge policy for the Scouts in his Unit... Good judgment and common sense go along way to making any policy work though...
I sincerely hope you do support that position... or have some clear and documented source the refutes it.
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Jay Walker wal...@scoutcpr.org www.scoutcpr.org
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
No, I am saying that what happens is fact. Sometimes what should happen is fiction.
Not all merit badge counselors make all boys p*** all items. Should they, yes, of course.
Does anybody get bent our of shape when they don't. Usually not.
When we empower people we don't always get what we want. Scoutmasters quite frequently don't accept their responsibility to control the issuance of blue cards.
Scoutmasters have the authority to approve or not approve MB cards prior to the start of any merit badge. Do they? sometimes they do. Should they, yes, of course.
Does anybody get bent our of shape when they don't. Usually not.
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Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to shenn...@fast.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
"Stephen M. Henning" pigh...@aol.com
1972 was the first time a Tenderfoot could work on merit badges.
Here is a summary of Eagle requirement and changes: 1911: Star, Life and Eagle rank first appear. Note the life rank comes before star and there are no service projects. There was no upper limit on the age when completing these requirements. s...@mindspring.com (J.
Hugh Sullivan) reported a man in his 60's earned Eagle Rank in 1952 when he finally p***ed Life Saving Merit Badge.
Eagle = First Cl*** & 21 merit badges [don't need the 5 required].
Eagle could possibly be earned 2 months (only built-in time limit is a 1-month minimum time from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***) 1914: Note that Eagle has required merit badges for the first time.
Eagle = First Cl*** & 11 required merit badges* & 10 more.
Eagle could theoretically be earned in 4 months (built-in time limits add up to 3 months: 1 month minimum time from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***, plus 2 months from Second Cl*** to First Cl***).
1927: Note Star comes before Life and time requirements are in place for first time.
Eagle = First Cl*** for 12 months & 11 required merit badges* & 10 more.
Eagle could be earned in 16 months: there was a 12 month requirement added after First Cl*** before Eagle.
1936: Note for the first time Eagle has Life rank as a requirement and Life has Star rank as a requirement.
Eagle could possibly be earned in 16 months. (built-in time limits add up to 15 months: 1 month minimum time from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***, 2 months from Second Cl*** to First Cl***, 3 months to Star, 3 months to Life, and 6 months to Eagle).
1952: Note for the first time all ranks including Star, Life and Eagle must be earned before age 18.
1959: Note for the first time we have the "conservation project" for Star and Life.
Eagle = Life for 6 months & 16 required merit badges & 5 more.
Eagle could possibly be earned in 16 months (built-in time limits add up to 15 months: 1 month minimum time from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***, 2 months from Second Cl*** to First Cl***, 3 months to Star, 3 months to Life, and 6 months to Eagle).
1965: Note for the first time the service project, leadership, and Scoutmaster Conference are mentioned.
Eagle = Life for 6 months & 11 required merit badges & 10 more & serve as a leader & plan, develop and carry out a service project & Scoutmaster Conference.
Eagle could possibly be earned in 15 months (built-in time limits add up to 14 months: 1 month minimum time from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***, 1 month from Second Cl*** to First Cl***, 3 months to Star, 3 months to Life, and 6 months to Eagle).
Then in 1970 the Eagle could be earned in 16 months (the requirement was changed to 2 months from Second Cl*** to First Cl***).
1972: Note time in rank is longer and no conservation project but added more merit badges starting with tenderfoot and more leadership is required.
First Cl*** included 2 required merit badges & 3 more.
Eagle = Life for 6 months & 10 required merit badges & 14 more & serve 6 months in a leadership position & plan, develop and give leadership to a service project & Scoutmaster Conference.
Eagle could be earned in 24 months (built-in time limits add up to 24 months: 2 months minimum time from joining until Tenderfoot, 3 months from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***, 3 months from Second Cl*** to First Cl***, 4 months to Star, 6 months to Life, and 6 months to Eagle).
1979: Stopped requiring merit badges for tenderfoot and second cl*** and reduced the number of merit badges required for other ranks.
First Cl*** included First Aid merit badge.
Eagle = Life for 6 months & 11 required merit badges & 10 more & serve 6 months in a leadership position & plan, develop and give leadership to a service project & Scoutmaster Conference.
Eagle could be earned in 22 months (built-in time limits add up to 22 months: 2 months minimum time from joining until Tenderfoot, 2 months from Tenderfoot to Second Cl***, 2 months from Second Cl*** to First Cl***, 4 months to Star, 6 months to Life, and 6 months to Eagle).
1989: Eliminated First Aid merit badge as a First Cl*** requirement.
Eagle could be earned in 20 months (the time limits to First Cl*** were removed, but earning First Cl*** required attending 3 overnight campouts plus 7 other activities).
1995: Added Family Life as an Eagle required merit badge.
Eagle = Life for 6 months & 12 required merit badges & 9 more & serve 6 months in a leadership position & plan, develop and give leadership to a service project & Scoutmaster Conference.
1998: Changed Eagle required merit badges.
Eagle = Life for 6 months & 12 required merit badges & 9 more & serve 6 months in a leadership position & plan, develop and give leadership to a service project & Scoutmaster Conference.
Eagle could be earned in 18 months (built-in time limits add up to about 16 months: Tenderfoot takes 30 days, no minimum to Second and First Cl*** plus 4 months to Star, 6 months to Life, and 6 months to Eagle) 1999: Changed Eagle required merit badges and changed Eagle positions of responsibility requirement: Dropped Safety as a required merit badge Added Personal Fitness as a required merit badge Made Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling a required merit badge.
Added Venture patrol leader; Venture crew/ship president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper.
2000: Change Eagle position of responsibility requirement: Added Order of the Arrow troop representative and Order of the Arrow team representative.
Removed Venture patrol leader; Venture crew/ship president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper. [Note: this is an omission, not a change.]
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Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to shenn...@fast.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
"Jay Walker" wwwal...@sp.ix.netcom.com
Let me cut to the chase... You are a regular poster with close ties to the organization. Many of us have great respect for your opinions and consider you to be a knowledgeable authority on most issue discussed here...
Please explain why you appear to take a position on the merit badge issue that is clearly not in accordance with BSA policy? Why not simply state that Units that do not presently require the Scoutmaster to "sign the blue card and ***ign the councilor" really should start doing it that way.
I do not understand your logic... that because some Scoutmasters do not accept their responsibility to control the issuance of blue cards that establishes a new policy that is somehow acceptable... You should be one of the first to get bent out of shape when they do not exercise that control.
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Jay Walker
s ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:25:26 -0600, "Jay Walker" In all honesty, Jay, I must agree with Steve. He obviously condemns those who do not follow policy, as he interprets it, to the letter. In this thread he is merely recognizing the obvious - the sentence I left unsnipped above is almost a cl***ic. Failure of Steve to condemn does not imply endoresment as much as boredom with repetition.
Steve didn't comment on my statement that many troops retest on MBs at BoR, which I strongly favor. I know he, and Paul Wolf, don't agree without spelling it out. "I don't care what momma don't 'low, they oughta do it anyhow".
Many small troops do the best they can and that may mean they don't even know regulations exist. When I was a SM in 1950-51 I wasn't aware of regs but I knew how a BSA troop should work - same thing when I had a Wevelos group in 1967.
There are regs and there is reality......
Hugh
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