Group therapy
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svchg ...@yahoo.se (HGJ)
According to Christopher Gillberg, professor of child and youth psychiatry, people with autistic conditions should not participate in ordinary group therapy. As far as I understand, Gillberg means group therapy where the other group members are NT. He mentions a number of tragic events that have happened because autists have participated in such group therapy.
Do you think Gillberg is right?
"Gareeth" Gare...@nothotmail.com
I do. I did a lot of group therapy when I was young and the therapists teneded to make ***umptions on what I should be feeling based on the norm rather than what was normal for me. They kept thinking I must be repressing things to. It was kind of annoying. I don't know about tragic though. One time I got stuck in hospital because I was unsure how I was feeling and I suppose an NT might have been more likely to know or to guess at it but that was about the worst thing that happened. I mainly resent the time lost.
Gareeth
"Larry" n...@larry-arnold.com
Most definately in my experience.
Before I was dx'd I was refered to a gruop relaxation cl*** but within the first few minutes I had had a total "meltdown"
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Larry L'autisme c'est moi "Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not believe in the laws of mathematics" ...
"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" A...@ratbag.demon.co.uk
Hi, I've enjoyed group therapy over the years, but I'm not sure if my co-
patients did! See, I tend to totally dominate, interrupt, go off on tangents, bring every single subject around to my latest obsession, show no empathy whatsoever to others' distress, make tactless remarks and inappropriate jokes and when it is my turn to talk, I go into a long monologue (none of which behaviour I do on purpose, or can actually control). Unfortunately, I am not usually aware that I am behaving inappropriately at the time, only afterwards.
So, whilst I'm having a great time talking about all the things I find fascinating (like psychology, for instance), the other patients either die of boredom or listen with rapped attention, whilst not addressing their own issues one tiny bit.
And then there are the times that I hate it - when someone has a really difficult problem and I have the over-whelming urge to try to fix it; and when someone is manic and succeeds in out-talking even me.
So basically, it is a disaster all round. When I've tried to tell psychologists how bad I am in group therapy, they always ***ume I'm shy or something. No one believes me that I'm really that bad! :o( My current psychologist knows that I have AS and agrees with me that group therapy and me will never be friends. In fact, she strongly discouraged me from trying it.
YMMV.
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Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
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The alt.support.autism FAQ is at http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/asa/
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Terry Jones terryjo...@beeb.net
Also where the therapist / leader is NT trained. At best it was a waste of time, but often it was draining, stressful, confusing, even alienating, because the interactions were based on inappropriate ***umptions and techniques (for my own situation).
Terry
Matt Matt1...@SPAMBLOCK-REMOVE-TO-EMAILhvc.rr.com
What sort of tragic events were they? Is there a description on the internet somewhere?
I did NOT have a good experience with conventional therapist run group therapy, but I found the 12 step programs type of group therapy to be wonderful.
I think the difference was that in the 12 step groups there is no permanent central authority, like a therapist, judging you. Just someone that volunteered to be group leader for a few months, and they don't comment on what you say. Basically, everyone is equal.
Also, there is no 'crosstalk' - commenting about what another person said. Only one person talks at a time, and everyone gets a turn to speak. If you don't want to talk at all it is fine, or go on for 20 minutes if there are only a few people there.
The main topic of discussion is about the '12 steps' in the program.
I thought some aspects of it are silly (and have said so :) but there are some very useful techniques and philosophy there too.
The overwhelming benefit I had going there was listening to other people talk about their lives and what sort of things worked for them in friendships, relationships, and work environments. After going for a year or so I felt I finally had some sort of grasp of how freindships and relationships work, and got a couple of each IRL for the first time. :) I got actual practice too because in some meetings they go out after the meeting for coffee or to a local diner for food, and since everyone there has some kind of problem or other, they are very tolerant of people that are different. I have been to meetings with blind people, paraplegics, people that have been institutionalized with many kinds of disorders, and people I am pretty sure are AS.
Also, they are mostly very respectful of personal space - it is customary to ask if it's ok before hugging someone.
As with most things, YMMV.
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Matt Self-Dx AS
Moggy nos...@sonic.net
HGJ lazily dreamed into the stars: I was in group therapy for a few years as a kid... I found that I didn't relate at all to what the other girls were troubled by, which frustrated me a great deal, especially as everyone was forced to "respond" to the speaker in turn and I knew my responses were as bizarre to them as their feelings were to me. I also didn't like being pushed to talk about what supposedly bothered me in front of a group, as they didn't seem to understand me any better than I did them. Most of the time I chose to make something up just so my problems would be something they'd comprehend, so it was of no benefit to me whatsoever except to hone my lying skills.
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Moggy ... amergindd et myrealbox splort com http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy "Some would sooner die than think. In fact, they often do." -- Bertrand Russell
svchg ...@yahoo.se (HGJ)
Gillberg writes that he has personally met several people with AS who have started going to group therapy and who have, in connection to this, developed conditions of confusion, broken with their relatives, and tried to kill themselves.
The statement is made in the book "Barn, ungdomar och vuxna med Asperger syndrom: normala, geniala, n?¶rdar?", ISBN 91-972641-6-4. I don't think that the text of the book is available on the internet, and I don't know if there is an English translation of the book.
Matt Matt1...@SPAMBLOCK-REMOVE-TO-EMAILhvc.rr.com
Confusion with regard to social situations is part of the definition of AS. If your relatives are unsupportive or abusive, breaking with them can be a positive step.
As for killing themselves, they had to have been seriously depressed, which should have been addressed by medication or some type of intervention. If the group therapy was therapist moderated, that therapist was extremely negligent.
***uming the worst - that these problems were caused by group therapy -
there should have been private sessions with a therapist, and if the group therapy was doing harm or causing extreme stress, they should have been taken out by the therapist.
Do you know if the group therapy sessions were therapist moderated?
A guess of the root causes of the problems would appear to me to be AC unaware/incompetent therapists. My personal experience has been that ~80% of the therapists I went to were not meaningfully helpful for me, and ~20% were actively harmful.
If I am on the spectrum, therapist inexperience/lack of knowledge of AS would help explain such a low rating.
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Matt Self-Dx AS
"AG" whokn...@myaddress.nospam
Hmmm... I've never received professional therapy for depression or any other mental condition, but when people have tried to offer me amateur therapy (ie. 'you look depressed... let's talk' type thing) they often seem to make a lot of ***umptions that don't apply to me, so I think there might be something in it.
For example I'm told I appear to be holdiong something back - 'you can tell me! I know there is something else' when I'm just trying to *think*! Often means I end up making something up (well, not quite, but saying something hasty that sort of fits) just so I get past the *barrier*.
natureloverch ...@aol.com (NatureloverChris)
Oh yes, I know this one very well. Just because I am very verbal doesn't mean I can talk about emotions and issues without thought. I need a lot of thought. My family always says I "bottle things up" I'm not, I am just waiting for the words darn it!
Chris
Melanie & Jim Earhart earhar...@mail.earthlink.net
This is very interesting to me. My AS son (9) has a hard time expressing his emotions. He cries a lot and is very sensitive, but he can't *explain* how he feels. Then he gets mad at himself for crying. But when it come to serious issues like death or illness he may cry a little, but not as much.
He's unable to express himself as well. He'll cry more over a game than a death in the family.
Melanei
natureloverch ...@aol.com (NatureloverChris)
Oh yes, that all fits me too. Mind you, 6 months to 2 years later I may cry hard over the death in the family, because I have finally processed the event.
I also would get very mad at myself for crying. Partly because I thought it was wimpy and partly because I didn't always understand why I was crying. I was crying over frustration, but didn't really understand until I was much older.
Chris
Melanie & Jim Earhart earhar...@mail.earthlink.net
We've tried different approaches, which do find more effective or maybe you can suggest something different. When he's crying over things that he shouldn't we've yelled at him(wrong), punished him(wrong), talked to him, but not in a very sympathetic way, and then lately trying to console him, but I can't tell if that approach is making his crying worse. He regresses when he has surgeries. Friday he has another surgery, so I know more tears over dumb things is really because of his fears. I'm just not sure whether to be stern or soft. The wrong ideas always come from our frustration of not knowing what to do. I wish we would have had this dx years ago.
Melanie
"neral" zi...@pandora.be
Very recognisible for me.
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neral www.neral.net
growingj ...@hotmail.com
I would try to comfort him. Obviously ACs can be seeking attention like anyone else, but I don't think we do that very often, especially not as young kids - it requires too much social understanding.
The things I cried over as a kid - and even often as an adult - are probably dumb things. But the pain is still very real.
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Joel
svchg ...@yahoo.se (HGJ)
Gillberg writes that it is important that therapists be aware of the existence of autistic conditions because ordinary group therapy is counterindicated for people with these conditions. Then he writes about his own experiences of people with AS who have attended group therapy. He doesn't explicitly claim that there was a therapist present at the sessions those people had attended, but I ***ume there was.
(I don't have Gillberg's book here now, I hope I remember correctly.)
natureloverch ...@aol.com (NatureloverChris)
Yelling just made things worse for me. So did stern words, because I knew I shouldn't be crying. Talking did sometimes, because I could sometimes get a better understanding of the situation. Not a demand of "why are you crying" but more general talk over the problem. Even if it was small thing. Sometimes I'd start with the small thing and eventually get to frustrations that really made me cry. Patience was definitely need for this.
What I always wanted at that time, but never got was to be left alone. I wished I could be ignored until I had sorted things out. I still am that way. If I am crying I want to be alone. I don't want to talk about my feelings. I can't explain my feelings. After I am done crying, I will sort things out myself and then I am ready to talk.
I am sorry things are so difficult. At least you are still trying to figure out what works best and are willing to try new things.
Chris
Suzanne s.removethis.da...@uclalumni.net
I agree with Joel, that comforting him is most likely a very good approach. I don't know how verbal your son is, nor how old, but one thing that I have started doing with my son (9/AS) is ask *him* what he would like me to do. If he's crying, often what he wants is to be held or to sit in my lap. If he's angry with me, sometimes he wants to be held (which surprised me a bit), and sometimes he wants to be left alone.
Sometimes, he will start yelling at me for something that has frustrated him, but that wasn't under my control. In that case, I will express understanding that he is frustrated/disapointed/angry, and ask what he wants me to do about it. He will often stop--mid-tirade--and switch to a more moderate tone. When he is calmer, he is often more able to explain what is really bothering him. I think that in these times, what he really wants is just someone to *hear* him.
What I have found *not* to be helpful is to be defensive when he appears to be attacking me verbally for something that I didn't even do. It seems to be a lot more helpful to redirect the conversation to the subject of what he wants from me. Also, humor is often helpful in diffusing the tension.
Another thing that I have learned is not to ***ume that, just because he doesn't talk about something, or even if he denies being worried about something, he isn't worried. I don't push him to talk, but I do tell him that I am available if he needs to talk. I sometimes say why I was worried about that thing, and why I feel that it's under control now.
Suzanne
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