Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04
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Jopey m...@me.com
"Who am I?" In Rational Recovery, the answer to this is in essence, "I am the one that controls my muscles, and I am the one that does not drink." Thus anything you think or feel that drives you to drink is not-you. Understanding your true identity is one of the keys to never drinking again. Its not a struggle because its not a skill. Its all about understanding who you really are. You have the free will to "not-do" anything, anytime, anyplace. It takes no skill.
Its effortless.
Regards, Jopey www.rational.org I am not affiliated with Rational Recovery
"SHARX.." SH...@SHARXTANKSnospam.com
|| "Who am I?" || || In Rational Recovery, the answer to this is in essence, "I am the || one that controls my muscles, and I am the one that does not drink." || Thus anything you think or feel that drives you to drink is not-you.
|| Understanding your true identity is one of the keys to never || drinking again. Its not a struggle because its not a skill. Its || all about understanding who you really are. You have the free will || to "not-do" anything, anytime, anyplace. It takes no skill. Its || effortless.
In a similar way, one can control their sphincters to stifle diarrhea, I suppose?
|| || Regards, || Jopey || www.rational.org || I am not affiliated with Rational Recovery
Jopey m...@me.com
Just the opposite, actually. The addicted person will act compusively in spite of the problems it causes them. The analogy is they would tighten their sphincter in spite of the problems that would cause. However it takes no-effort to relax the sphincter. It takes no effort to not-drink. And one always has that ability. Regards, Jopey
rita railroadritaNoS...@yahoo.com
OOOOOHHHH NOOOOO, not the Diarrhea Argument again!!! This nonsense is so devoid of logic and reason it's scary. How the hell can you compare explosive diarrhea or vomiting (or a heart attack for that matter) which are malfunctions of bodily organs (beyond physical control, no choice involved) with: choosing to go to a liquor store, purchasing a chosen brand, going back home or to a chosen drinking spot, opening the bottle, and swallowing the chosen amount of contents????
There is choice involved every step of the way. And one can also choose to NOT do any or all of the behaviors involved. The choice may not be easy for some people at a certain point in their life, but that doesn't mean it's not a choice! Diarrhea and heart attacks, OTOH, are not behaviors!!!
Next up: I'm waiting for the tired ol' claim that drinking is the same as diabetes and AA is the same as insulin...
~Rita p.s. There are many really legitimate things to object to Jack Trimpey and his merry band of RR drones about. But his stating that drinking and drugging are behaviors rather than diseases is not one of them.
Kai R sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com
Right. Nevermind the fact that only Martians could even begin to think "it's effortless" for an alcoholic to not drink.
Kai
"Jim Blair" jbl...@videotron.ca
Rita wrote There is choice involved every step of the way. And one can also choose to NOT do any or all of the behaviors involved.
Except of course, those who have an obsession of the mind.
Jim
moraldefici ...@hotmail.com (moraldeficient)
Please, let me first say, Can I have a deadly disease or a heart attack.
Now that we have gotten that out of the way I could not agree more.
The whole disease aspect of AA/NA programs has always disturbed me. I do not think I have a disease. I do not think that my drug abuse is akin to the cancer my stepmother died of. I think that personal choice plays a large role in life and that people may become obsessed with drinking or doing drugs but in the end it is always their own hand that commits the act. I have never seen anyone forced to drink or shoot dope.
"Tommy" tormyleprech...@indigo.ie
Anyone ever notice that the people with the most to say about the why and what of alcoholism, aren't alcoholics themselves. Usenet kooks mostly.
For anyones information, if one were to mention these people, (Trimpy and Coy and alternative remedies for alcoholism) anywhere else but usenet, they'd be laughed at. Which rightly proves to me, they're definitely usenet kooks.
Ahh well sure they're not doing anyone any harm.
Cheers TOmmy
"F.H." disconnectedxx...@chimplinkxxx.net
Except for those doing the reducing. For them it definitely serves a purpose.
snip for space only//// The Garster is on fire.
GlennS GlennV...@hotmail.com
Nancy Reagan? Is that you?
Then, again, it couldn't be. Even she had enough sense to never imply that it would be "effortless" for an alcoholic to stop drinking. Much less put it in writing.
Why does everyone take such pains to ensure that everyone knows that they have no ties with Jack Trimpey? Never mind. The answer to that is obvious.
If addiction could be cured by "just saying no", there would be no such things as addiction, Alcoholics Anonymous, OR Rational Recovery.
I hate to use the "S" word in this forum, but its use is inescapable here. People who believe that addiction can be cured by performing the "effortless" act of "just saying no" can only fall into two categories. They either know nothing about addiction, or they're stupid.
And, yes, people can fall into both of those categories at the same time.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956 Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
"cad ...@wits.end" <tALLDOUBTmarl
This was not my experience. Quite the opposite, in fact.....
tm
"Mel" m...@atj.faq.com
you just wrote a load of shit.
but it goes to show that a stepper will say *anything* to negate a program which is not a 12 step cult program.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself Mel the Defiler member, ATJ regs webmaster of atjfaq.com http://www.atjfaq.com/
"Melia Tomas" leeto...@comcast.net
Mine either, and I'm in agreement with you tm...
m
"Jim Blair" jbl...@videotron.ca
"moraldeficient" wrote The whole disease aspect of AA/NA programs has always disturbed me.
It is AA members who have stuck the disease concept on alcoholism. The BB sees the problem as being in the alcoholic and not in alcohol. Also, the BB sees the problem as being rooted in character.
Jim
moraldefici ...@hotmail.com (moraldeficient)
In that case the BB is spot on. I think that is why even though I attend NA I read the Big Book for a better understanding of the program. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful that there is NA for me to go to as my drug of choice was Heroin but I look at it like this.
NA, leave it to a bunch of addicts to find a program that works and change it to fit their ideas on recovery.
I also don't for a second believe that it is as easy as "just saying no".
MD
"Melia Tomas" leeto...@comcast.net
Jim, can you give me some reference pages on the "character" rootings.
Thanks. Melia Hey Gar, I know you're good with words and meanings, what's your definition of the word character? Does character have to do anything with our spiritual beings....
Thanks. Melia ...
emptyglass032 ...@yahoo.com (Davey G)
From the Big Book: "Any picture of the alcoholic which leaves out this physical factor is incomplete" "An illness of this sort, and we do believe it to be an illness..." "These observations would be pointless if he never took the first drink. Therefore the main problem centers in the mind" Doesnt matter what you call it illness, disease whatever. The plight of the REAL alcoholic is not JUST a matter of being "maladjusted" to life. One part Physical and 1 part Mental with an underlying spiritual malady. The disease concept is in no way a cop out or an excuse for the alcoholic to continue drinking. There is a disease there is a proven way to be come completely recovered (with mantinence of course). Perhaps there are other ways as well. THe problem with purely Mental aproaches to alcoholism (IMHO) is that the Mind is where the main problem centers. So using only the mind to overcome the mental problem ... well it's kind of putting all the eggs in one slightly maladjusted basket. The spiritual aproach when trully taken enables the alcoholic to make a serious leap to recovery... one that simply can not be made on brain power alone. Our own AA meetings are proof. Those practicing some similar form of the original 12 steps are in the minority, but by and large they tend to be the more happily recovered.
Bill Wilson refered to Alcoholism as a disease after the AMA declared it as such. He always stopped short of this previously because he didn't want to make waves or imply that alcoholics were not to be responsible for their actions.
This BS about always being recovering one day at a time until they plant you in the ground is treatment center crap that has perverted the real AA message.
As for RR I have no real knowlege of it, but if booze beat you up anything like it did me, and you are staying sober now ... God Bless You.
My Big Book says to carry the AA message to those who need it and want it. I am not here to argue about other approaches.
However ... if those approaches dont work out for you ... you are ALWAYS welcome to AA. Only requirement is a desire to stop drinking.
Bill D. neveralone_neverag...@NOSPAMcharter.net
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:26:30 -0600, GaryE <garyexxxnos...@nadaswbell.net>, with ineffable wisdom and insight enthralled us all with this shining, brilliant example of absolute cognitive coherence: This is becoming a really good thread.
Thanks for your thoughts, Gary.
Peace.
Bill
"F.H." disconnectedxx...@chimplinkxxx.net
some of which was snipped for space only////// The Garster is on a roll. :) Gramps Friend of Gar Frank
"WayneandMaureen" spiritual...@maxinter.net
Maybe the spiritual defines the human as we know it.....and it is all that we know.... Nothing more to be revealed until we fail to follow. Maybe then we are led by character. And still it is all that we know. :>) wayne
"Mel" m...@atj.faq.com
complete utter bollocks.
i have heard the exact same above paragraph (paraphrased) uttered by steppers in meetings.
everything is choice.
the fact that a non-stepper is saying the above as reason why one does not need the 12 step cult program is the true reason for your bullshit reply.
addiction is a strong habit, a strong compulsion (to take some action).
acting out an addiction requires (quite obviously) that you take action and (often) spend money.
addiction is all about choice and action. getting out of addiction is all about choice and taking no action (to pursue the addiction).
there are no magic wands to wave.
for many people (including myself) no amount of attending meetings, praying, writing, hand-holding, hugs, "honest" sharing, heart-to-heart chats etc.
were sufficient. i had to have drugs at any cost, because I wanted them.
only when I changed my mind about what I wanted to do, did I stop using drugs and not before.
but it did HELP that I wasn't convinced that I was powerless over some MYTHICAL disease and that I couldn't stop even if I wanted to. telling people that is just plain disingenuous.
essentially he could. all drunks who get sober, stop drinking, one way or the other.
the prevailing attitude was / is correct.
at the end of the day, that is what is required. does not matter how you shake it, every single drug user who "recovers" from drug addiction, stopped using drugs.
NA does not deny this btw, in fact it considers stopping as the necessary first step (even before embarking on the 12 step program).
addiction is not complex. it is very simple.
it is simply a strong compulsion to repeat some behaviour.
as it is often written, "this medication can be habit forming", addiction is simply a habit.
I recall quite vividly that in 1999 I had an NA induced drug problem. I recall that I was constantly in victim mode. Having been taught by NA that I had a disease called addiction for which there is no cure, I bemoaned the fact that I was powerless to stop using.
Both myself and my now ex-wife attended 12 step meetings (NA / Nar-Anon).
They didn't do either of us any good. Neither of us seemed to get any better. We remained in the problem and eventually it destroyed our marriage.
NA is not the answer to the problem of drug addiction, rather it is part of the problem because it perpetuates dependency. It deprives individuals of the knowledge that they themselves are able to conquer their drug problem and move on to bigger and better things.
All things considered when I look back over the time I spent attending NA meetings, the overall feeling I get is FAUX. Everything is fake. People say things not because that is the reality of their situation, rather they say things which will fit in with what is expected and thereby gain sympathy, support and encouragement. People share stuff to get positive feedback. They actually get addicted to receiving positive feedback. They'll twist and turn and shape what they say just to get that. They'll make clever use of NA cliches to gain "wows" from their audience. It's all a silly game and I came to see NA meetings as completely surreal, apart from reality and therefore of no use to me at all.
NA / AA present themselves as the largest target in the treatment of addiction / alcoholism.
the 12 step program has become the de facto standard accepted worldwide as the WAY to treat all kinds of addiction.
Fact is that it is nothing of the sort! It is instead a harmful religious cult which keeps people in the problem and perpetuates dependency.
While steppers (and other adherents) will point to their success stories as proof that their program works, it can hardly be considered an effective treatment given the very low success rate.
And the other thing is that even the people who do manage to get off drugs the NA Way, mostly live in constant fear of doing something wrong which will torpedo their "recovery". They live their lives in superstitious awe of the program, always looking at their life's minutiae for fear that some tiny detail might lead them back into relapse. Those who do relapse, conduct a witch hunt to discover what thing(s) they did / didn't do which caused the relapse. Fact is that what caused the relapse was that they made a decision to start using again (and no other thing).
These are not people confident of their own ability to stay quit off drugs.
Having observed all this first hand, my decision is that I am not attracted to the 12 step program. It is not the way I wish to live my life.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself Mel the Defiler member, ATJ regs webmaster of atjfaq.com http://www.atjfaq.com/
"Mel" m...@atj.faq.com
actually the compulsion to use drugs (that a drug user experiences) cannot force them to use drugs.
the compulsion itself does not have money, nor the ability to drive a car or even make a phone call. nor can it prepare the drugs and take them.
the irony is that it is in fact the very centre of drug addiction which is 100% powerless, rather than the drug user (who is 100% POWERFUL).
this is 180 degrees from the 12 step program.
becoming sexually aroused is not the same thing as acting upon that arousal.
a person still has a choice to stop subjecting themselves to that which is causing the arousal.
no, drug users choose to act upon their compulsion instead of ignoring it and pursuing activities designed to minimise the compulsion.
I believe that an important part of quitting drugs is identifying activities which will help you overcome feelings of compulsion to use. And then to do them, when that compulsion comes along. After a long time abstinent, the compulsions (cravings) cease.
I found exercise very helpful.
the disease concept of addiction is central to NA. NA Basic Text explicitly mentions it and affirms it.
Negating that addiction is a disease, effectively negates the entire NA program. It falsifies it.
Nobody can argue that cancer is a disease. That has been proven.
No-one has ever proven that addiction is a disease.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself Mel the Defiler member, ATJ regs webmaster of atjfaq.com http://www.atjfaq.com/
"Mel" m...@atj.faq.com
yet another TOP (troll obsessed poster).
does it?
I don't think so. I think he wants to get his message out to relevant groups.
You call him a troll because you disagree with his message. a common trait of the common TOP.
she was right. and her mantra still helps many young people.
"Just say NO to drugs." I believe she hit the nail on the head.
Certainly it helped me. I only picked up at age 29. I was at a very bad place in my life and I picked up because I didn't give a shit. I picked up because I was a foolhardy person who only learnt things the hard way.
Factually, it is effortless to stop drinking alcohol or stop taking drugs.
I recall having to expend vast amounts of energy and resouces in order to continue my habit. When I quit drugs, I didn't have to do all those things anymore.
People need information on how to quit a habit.
It takes some effort and commitment to break a strong habit.
One needs to have one's morale boosted often. It's a battle, especially in the beginning. They need to know that if they can make it to a milestone, they are well on the way to staying quit. After a while, staying quit becomes easy and effortless, but at first, it is a hard slog. People need to know all this.
For some reason, many NA members regard achieving a milestone as a reason to celebrate by resuming using. Kind of like a reward. They're 6 months clean today, so as a reward for all that "good" behaviour, they'll allow themselves one, no two, hell four, rocks of crack cocaine.
A milestone, if you keep track of clean time, is there to remind you that you are on the way to achieving effortless abstinence. At some point, the compulsion to use will leave you and never return (unless you use again).
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself Mel the Defiler member, ATJ regs webmaster of atjfaq.com http://www.atjfaq.com/
"Reg Edit" m...@mj.com
Same things happen in AA. The folks in AA (most of them) credit AA for giving them what they needed to change their mind. Some express it differently (miracle, God, fate, one of the chosen) but I agree with you, you have to not want to drink, drug, sex overeat, etc. before you can stop (this is called making a decision to stop). AA played a part in my not drinking in my early years (that & therapy) simply because of the fellowship (herd instinct). But, ultimately, you, personally, make a decision to stop.
AA helps push you in that direction. Even if you don't know that YOU made a decision. Give away the credit all you want, but old #1, made the decision.
GlennS GlennV...@hotmail.com
Sure it is, unless you happen to be an addict or an alcoholic.
I notice that you didn't say that it was effortless for you to quit using. Was it?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956 Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
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