step 1

cfr101 ...@hotmail.com (cfr)

My name is chris and I am an alcoholic.
I got drunk last night. I smashed a $500 dollar guitar on a $300 dollar coffee table and upset my wife.
At one time I had two years sober. I started smoking marijuana. Then I started drinking moderately. This of course didn't last. I went to a White Stripes concert thursday night and got angry at my wife and punched a wall. Then last night I got really ripped and acted like a psycho ***hole.
I am very upset. This disease killed my father and now it is trying to kill me.
I will go to an AA meeting later today. I have always had a problem with AA. I am not really a people person. But that doesn't matter.
I am not going to AA to make friends. I need to get sober. **** everyone. **** every last one of you. I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I just need to get sober for my wife. Some dickhead will now respond and say I have to do it for myself. Whatever. I have been fighting this disease as long as I can remember and I am a complete loser. But I don't give a **** anymore. I will continue to fight. Only time will make things better.
I will go to my meeting tonight and then go to sleep. When I wake up I will have one day sobriety.
**** you cfr

nipntuk carp...@hotmail.com

Among other things Best of luck - will be hoping for you And **** you too! Often, when I'm expressing this sentiment, the "you" ends up being 'me'
------------------------------
Free Trip to the Costa Turquesa! No Strings! http://home.comcast.net/~zoundman

"Lech K. Lesiak" lkles...@calcna.ab.ca

On 23 Nov 2003, cfr wrote: That's OK. I'm sure she deserved it.
Cheers, White Privileged Male Lech

"Mark Warner" mhwarner.inhibiti...@insightbb.com

Anybody laying odds on who that will be?
You'll do well here.
--
Mark Warner lose .inhibitions when replying

"rosie read and post" readandp...@yahoo.com

(((((((((((((((((cfr))))))))))))))))) i remember waking up, "the morning after, the night before" :) damn, it was tough!
--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie to avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.
.......................elbert hubbard ...

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"cfr" < | My name is chris and I am an alcoholic.
So what's the requirement for that these days? That one acts like a poopoo head when drinking?
| I got drunk last night. I smashed a $500 dollar guitar on a $300 | dollar coffee table and upset my wife.
Not very bright was it?
| At one time I had two years sober. I started smoking marijuana. Then | I started drinking moderately. This of course didn't last. I went to | a White Stripes concert thursday night and got angry at my wife and | punched a wall.
Curious did you hurt the wall more than yourself? If not then I would suggest you not do that anymore.
|Then last night I got really ripped and acted like a | psycho ***hole.
Might be better not to do that if it's not what you want to become.
| I am very upset. This disease killed my father and now it is trying | to kill me.
So the disease picked up a five hundred dollar guitar and smashed it on a three hundred dollar coffee table did it? Wake up and accept responsiblity for your unacceptable behavior. Trying to blame a disease for you behavior is a cop-out.
| I will go to an AA meeting later today.
Just great. Behave like a shit head, feel guilty about it, then go to an organization that's going to let you off the hook by agreeing that it's your disease that's doing it to you.
|I have always had a problem | with AA.
Apparently except when you can go there and feel vindicated that it wasn't you it was your disease destroying eight hundred dollars worth of items and emotionally abusing your wife.
|I am not really a people person. But that doesn't matter.
| I am not going to AA to make friends.
|I need to get sober. **** It's likely you're sober now. Nobody needs AA to stay sober. Some may want AA but nobody needs it. Heck you'ld think the world didn't exist before AA the way some of em talk about it.
| everyone. **** every last one of you. I don't care what anyone | thinks of me. I just need to get sober for my wife. Some dickhead | will now respond and say I have to do it for myself.
Not me. If you want your wife badly enough it's as good a reason as any, better than most.
| Whatever. I | have been fighting this disease as long as I can remember and I am a | complete loser.
Trying fighting your urge to act inapropriatly that would have saved you eight hundred bucks.
|But I don't give a **** anymore. I will continue to | fight. Only time will make things better.
You reckon you'll fix your anger issues with time and AA? Maybe with time and work but not with AA. That's outside the scope of AA. So is decent recovery rates it seems.
| I will go to my meeting tonight and then go to sleep. When I wake up I | will have one day sobriety.
You will have been abstinent for one day. Don't make abstinence out to be some great big difficult thing. It it requires is that you not drink.
Good luck.

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

You, not being an alcoholic, couldn't of course even begin to have clue of what it takes. Do you also go around telling blind people you know how it is to be blind? Perhaps you like to hang around in the societies of mountain climbers telling you know what it's like to ascent that Mt. Everest, no big deal really?
Kai

"David M" dh...@insightbb.com

Easy, Kai. At Stumpy's age didn't you, too, know just about everything? I certainly did. The main effect of life from eighteen on was to teach me what I didn't know. I just hope Stumpy learns easier that some of us have.
"He jests at scars who never felt a wound. . . ."

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"Kai" < | > You will have been abstinent for one day. Don't make abstinence out to be | > some great big difficult thing. It it requires is that you not drink.
| | You, not being an alcoholic, couldn't of course even begin to have | clue of what it takes.
"alcoholic" as it relates to individuals only exists within the context of AA. It's not a medical dx here Kai.
|Do you also go around telling blind people you | know how it is to be blind?
Blind people are actually blind whereas AAs are not carriers of the disease of alcoholism because no such disease exists. The fact that you've come to believe that it does as a result of their ministrations is an example of the abuse AAs get up to.
|Perhaps you like to hang around in the | societies of mountain climbers telling you know what it's like to | ascent that Mt. Everest, no big deal really?
They've actually climbed Mt E. AA's don't have the ficticious disease of alcoholism because it doesn't exist.

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"David M" < | | >> You will have been abstinent for one day. Don't make | >> abstinence out to be some great big difficult thing. It it | >> requires is that you not drink.
| | > You, not being an alcoholic, couldn't of course even begin | > to have clue of what it takes. Do you also go around telling | > blind people you know how it is to be blind?
| | Easy, Kai. At Stumpy's age didn't you, too, know just about | everything? I certainly did.
lol eighteen lol. You've added two and two together and came up with 8.
Positively wonderful. Ignore what I'm saying in favor of foisting off to youth. Never mind that I'm not wrong.
|The main effect of life from | eighteen on was to teach me what I didn't know.
Apparently you still don't know alot about AA, either that or you simply refuse to accept it. I learned early on, before 18 actually that's it's much better to accept the fact than fight them simply to hold onto an false hope.
| I just hope | Stumpy learns easier that some of us have.
Could have been easier but that's what happens if you will insist on buying into AA's nosense.
| "He jests at scars who never felt a wound. . . ." Nah I point out scars that are self inflicted.

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

Can you tell me what did people die of in the 1700's? Not many diagnoses to choose from, eh. Life must have been very different with, for example, no influenza. But all this medical diagnosis BS is ridiculous, anyway. ICD-10 lists 'alcohol dependency syndrome', which is the medical name for alcoholism. There's no cancer either, but many people say they have it. Do you tell cancer patients they actually don't have cancer 'cause there's no such disease?
Is blindness a medical dx there? What if someone was to tell the blind they actually weren't blind , but duped into believing so? Who do you suppose you'd believe to be right?
Umm, is climbing the Mt. Everest a medical dx there?
Kai

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"Kai" < | Can you tell me what did people die of in the 1700's?
All manner of things.
|Not many | diagnoses to choose from, eh.
quite the contrary. Humans die from all manner of things. Have since the beginning.
|Life must have been very different with, | for example, no influenza. But all this medical diagnosis BS is | ridiculous, anyway. ICD-10 lists 'alcohol dependency syndrome', which | is the medical name for alcoholism.
No it is not. Alcoholism is a ficticious disease. It appears in the ICD under the heading Neurotic Disorders, Personality Disorders & other nonpsychotic Mental Disorders.
What abusive drinkers, on the level of non coerced AAs, have is a mental disorder. Now I know AAs don't like to hear that, and they would much prefer to believe that they have a ficticious disease called alcoholism, but they don't because no such disease exists. And AA does them a disservice by letting them beleive they do have that ficticious disease.
|There's no cancer either, but many | people say they have it.
Because if they have it they do. Instead of looking for cancer try looking for carcinoma. You'll find it. And no alcohol dependence syndrome is not a specific type of alcoholism it's a medical term to descripe physcial dependence on alcohol.
http://tinylink.com/?JkFGwLJMW6 |Do you tell cancer patients they actually | don't have cancer 'cause there's no such disease?
No because there is such a disease in varying forms coverd in the ICD you mentioned.
230 Carcinoma in situ of digestive organs 231 Carcinoma in situ of respiratory system 232 Carcinoma in situ of skin 233 Carcinoma in situ of breast and genitourinary system 234 Carcinoma in situ of other and unspecified sites | | > | > |Do you also go around telling blind people you | > | know how it is to be blind?
| > | > Blind people are actually blind whereas AAs are not carriers of the disease | > of alcoholism because no such disease exists. The fact that you've come to | > believe that it does as a result of their ministrations is an example of the | > abuse AAs get up to.
| | Is blindness a medical dx there?
Did I say it was?
|What if someone was to tell the blind | they actually weren't blind , but duped into believing so?
Then such a person would be blind to their plight.
|Who do you | suppose you'd believe to be right?
Certainly not the person blind to the fact that he has no disease. The big difference here Kai is that you're trying to equate what you beleive to be a disease, but in reality isn't, with those that actually have a physical problem. The situations are in no way equal. That blind person is actually blind whereas AAs don't actually have a disease called alcoholism.
| > | > |Perhaps you like to hang around in the | > | societies of mountain climbers telling you know what it's like to | > | ascent that Mt. Everest, no big deal really?
| > | > They've actually climbed Mt E. AA's don't have the ficticious disease of | > alcoholism because it doesn't exist.
| | Umm, is climbing the Mt. Everest a medical dx there?
Did I say it was?

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

Naw, they couldn't 'cause there were not many diagnoses. Or that is how your logic goes when you claim no one can be an alcoholic 'cause it cannot, according to you, be diagnosed.
So it is fictitious, but appears under the heading Neurotic Disorders, Personality Disorders & other nonpsychotic Mental Disorders? Okay.
Sure, if you forget the physical dependence on alcohol which you, for some reason, remember to mention later in this post, but not in the above sentence where you claim it's a 'mental disorder'.
I'm in AA and have nothing against hearing that. So you're wrong. It is quite clear to me that what I suffered from was 'alcohol dependence syndrome' a.k.a alcoholism. It includes both a mental disorder and physical dependence.
Naw, can't have a fictitious disease.
Sure, as you do find alcohol dependency syndrome.
Not according to ICD-10 it isn't. But what do they know, right?
http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-sb01.html European Description The ICD-10 Cl***ification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders World Health Organization, Geneva, 1992 F10.2 Alcohol Dependence Syndrome A cluster of physiological, behavioural, and cognitive phenomena in which the use of alcohol takes on a much higher priority for a given individual than other behaviours that once had greater value. A central descriptive characteristic of the dependence syndrome is the desire (often strong, sometimes overpowering) to take alcohol. There may be evidence that return to alcohol use after a period of abstinence leads to a more rapid reappearance of other features of the syndrome than occurs with nondependent individuals.
Diagnostic Guidelines A definite diagnosis of dependence should usually be made only if three or more of the following have been experienced or exhibited at some time during the previous year: (a) a strong desire or sense of compulsion to take alcohol; (b) difficulties in controlling alcohol-taking behaviour in terms of its onset, termination, or levels of use; (c) a physiological withdrawal state when alcohol use has ceased or been reduced, as evidenced by: the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol; or use of the alcohol with the intention of relieving or avoiding withdrawal symptoms; (d) evidence of tolerance, such that increased doses of alcohol are required in order to achieve effects originally produced by lower doses (clear examples of this are found in alcohol-dependent individuals who may take daily doses sufficient to incapacitate or kill nontolerant users); (e) progressive neglect of alternative pleasures or interests because of alcohol use, increased amount of time necessary to obtain or take alcohol or to recover from its effects; (f) persisting with alcohol use despite clear evidence of overtly harmful consequences, such as harm to the liver through excessive drinking; efforts should be made to determine that the user was actually, or could be expected to be, aware of the nature and extent of the harm.
Narrowing of the personal repertoire of patterns of alcohol use has also been described as a characteristic feature (e.g. a tendency to drink alcoholic drinks in the same way on weekdays and weekends, regardless of social constraints that determine appropriate drinking behaviour).
It is an essential characteristic of the dependence syndrome that either alcohol taking or a desire to take alcohol should be present; the subjective awareness of compulsion to use alcohol is most commonly seen during attempts to stop or control alcohol use.
Includes: * chronic alcoholism to top ICD-10 copyright ?© 1992 by World Health Organization.
I see no cancer there. Do you?
Kai

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"staamfa" < | |Life must have been very different with, | | for example, no influenza. But all this medical diagnosis BS is | | ridiculous, anyway. ICD-10 lists 'alcohol dependency syndrome', which | | is the medical name for alcoholism.
| | No it is not. Alcoholism is a ficticious disease. It [alcohol dependence syndrome] appears in the ICD | under the heading Neurotic Disorders, Personality Disorders & other | nonpsychotic Mental Disorders.
Just a clarification. Alcoholism does not appear in the ICD. Alcohol dependence syndrome does, to indicate physical dependence on Alcohol.

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"Kai" < | | Naw, they couldn't 'cause there were not many diagnoses.
I get it you're playing the it's not dxed because medical profession hasn't found it yet even as you're playing the they have found it and it's listed as alcohol dependence syndrome game.
|Or that is | how your logic goes when you claim no one can be an alcoholic 'cause | it cannot, according to you, be diagnosed.
It can not be dxed because it doesn't exist period. Its simply a ficticious disease that helps AAs get to bed at night comfy in the notion that it's not really their fault.
| | > | > No it is not. Alcoholism is a ficticious disease. It appears in the ICD | > under the heading Neurotic Disorders, Personality Disorders & other | > nonpsychotic Mental Disorders.
| | So it is fictitious, but appears under the heading Neurotic Disorders, | Personality Disorders & other nonpsychotic Mental Disorders? Okay.
Already issued the update for this one as I just knew someone was going to play dense and read it like you just did. Of course it doesn't exist in the ICD. I have never said that it does. What you saw was a poor choice of wording and not an indication that i believe it's there because it's not.
| | > | > What abusive drinkers, on the level of non coerced AAs, have is a mental | > disorder.
| | Sure, if you forget the physical dependence on alcohol which you, for | some reason, remember to mention later in this post, but not in the | above sentence where you claim it's a 'mental disorder'.
Why would i forget that. I only just brought it up. Are you the type of person who thinks that someone couldn't wear a shirt and a pair of slacks at the same time?
| | > Now I know AAs don't like to hear that, and they would much | > prefer to believe that they have a ficticious disease called alcoholism, but | > they don't because no such disease exists.
| | I'm in AA and have nothing against hearing that. So you're wrong.
Are you all of AA then? I'll tell you what why don't you take yourself over to lamlighters and without saying a word other than the below post the below: "Alcoholism is a ficticious disease, it does not exist. What you people have is a mental disorder." Feel free to report your results.
| It | is quite clear to me that what I suffered from was 'alcohol dependence | syndrome' a.k.a alcoholism.
It is not aka. It is not known as alcoholism Kai. You may have had at one point a physical dependence on alcohol but that does not indicate that such dependence indicates a completley ficticious disease proffered by AAs as alcoholism.
| It includes both a mental disorder and | physical dependence.
You may have a mental disorder and may have had a physical dependenc on Alcohol, may still have for all I know, but that would not consititute having a disease that does not exist. Namely alcoholism.
| Naw, can't have a fictitious disease.
Now you're getting the picture. Only blindness isn't ficticious.
| | > Instead of looking for cancer try looking | > for carcinoma. You'll find it.
| | Sure, as you do find alcohol dependency syndrome.
I already have, long time ago and just recently again. I told you were it is in the ICD and what it is.
| | > And no alcohol dependence syndrome is not a | > specific type of alcoholism it's a medical term to descripe physcial | > dependence on alcohol.
| | Not according to ICD-10 it isn't. But what do they know, right?
| | http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-sb01.html | | European Description | The ICD-10 Cl***ification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders | World Health Organization, Geneva, 1992 | F10.2 Alcohol Dependence Syndrome | | A cluster of physiological, behavioural, and cognitive phenomena in | which the use of alcohol takes on a much higher priority for a given | individual than other behaviours that once had greater value.
Yes. alcohol dependence syndrome not alcoholism. Alcoholism does not exist. You will recall when I asked you to provide the Finnish codes I told you I suspected that it wouldn't be alcoholism but rather alcohol dependence.
Alcohol abuse is a behavior which is what I and many others have been saying for quite some time. The physical dependence on alcohol happens after the body becomes accustomed to operating with high levels of alcohol present.
| > | > http://tinylink.com/?JkFGwLJMW6 | > | > |Do you tell cancer patients they actually | > | don't have cancer 'cause there's no such disease?
| > | > No because there is such a disease in varying forms coverd in the ICD you | > mentioned.
| > | > 230 Carcinoma in situ of digestive organs | > 231 Carcinoma in situ of respiratory system | > 232 Carcinoma in situ of skin | > 233 Carcinoma in situ of breast and genitourinary system | > 234 Carcinoma in situ of other and unspecified sites | | I see no cancer there. Do you?
It's apparent you see what you want to see Kai.
Carcinoma is cancer. I provided you with a link to show you. If you choose, as it's apparent you do, to keep turning a blind eye to the facts that's fine keep doing so. Just don't act as though you've never seen them.

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

You just made a positive ***ertion something does *not* exist. Not very promising.
So reading what you actually write is playing dense? Weelll, it was *you* who said that, not me.
You claim 'abusive drinkers' have 'a mental disorder'. Period. No mention of physical dependence whatsoever. Later on, you do speak about 'physical dependence' but you do not connect it to 'abusive drinkers' in any way.
You claim you know 'AA's don't like to hear it'. I'm an AA and have nothing against hearing it, so you're wrong. What's with you, can't comprehend your mother tongue or what? Get with the program.
Sure it is.
LOL Ask anyone on the street whether it is known as alcoholism. Feel free to report the results.
Except my reference, as was extremely clear from my post, was to the fictitious disease called cancer. Can't have that one. Check the ICD-10 if you don't believe me.
Of course it doesn't exist, you snipped it. But, luckily, the mighty Shub-Internet is mild today and hasn't shut down the Gorenet, so I'm happy to reproduce it to you: "Includes: * chronic alcoholism" It appears the Finnish language codes are not readily available in electronic form for me to provide.
"A cluster of physiological, behavioural, and cognitive phenomena..." You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between 'physical dependence' and 'alcohol dependence *syndrome*'. Which, BTW, includes chronic alcoholism, as the link and the text I provided tells us.
I see no cancer there. Do you?
Alcohol dependence syndrome is alcoholism.
Kai

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

Really? Then why do they lie to us in the ICD-10 about it?
Kai

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"Kai" < | You just made a positive ***ertion something does *not* exist. Not | very promising.
You have utterly failed to show that it does exist. You've attempted to portray alcohol dependence syndrome as alcoholism but it's not. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim not the negative claim. I would ask you to prove the disease exists. But you can't because it doesn't.
| > | | > | So it is fictitious, but appears under the heading Neurotic Disorders, | > | Personality Disorders & other nonpsychotic Mental Disorders? Okay.
| > | > Already issued the update for this one as I just knew someone was going to | > play dense and read it like you just did.
| | So reading what you actually write is playing dense? Weelll, it was | *you* who said that, not me.
Reading what I write and pretending I would change my mind so quickly on whether or not alcoholism, a ficticious disease, is in the ICD, when I only just said it isn't, is kind of dense yes.
| > Why would i forget that. I only just brought it up. Are you the type of | > person who thinks that someone couldn't wear a shirt and a pair of slacks at | > the same time?
| | You claim 'abusive drinkers' have 'a mental disorder'.
Your point?
|Period. No | mention of physical dependence whatsoever.
Just because someone is abusing alcohol doesn't mean that they've yet gotten to the state where they are physically dependent on alcohol.
|Later on, you do speak | about 'physical dependence' but you do not connect it to 'abusive | drinkers' in any way.
Because I shouldn't have to it should be understood by a reasonable person that the way a person gets to the point of physical dependence on alcohol is through abuse of alcohol. Do I really have to say it for you to understand that? Are you going to believe someone beomes physically dependant on "alcohol" by drinking water?
| > | > Now I know AAs don't like to hear that, and they would much | > | > prefer to believe that they have a ficticious disease called alcoholism, | > but | > | > they don't because no such disease exists.
| > | | > | I'm in AA and have nothing against hearing that. So you're wrong.
| > | > Are you all of AA then?
| | You claim you know 'AA's don't like to hear it'. I'm an AA and have | nothing against hearing it, so you're wrong.
Are you all of AA then? Did I quantify my statement to state that "all" AAs don't like to hear it? You're offering yourself as an example that breaks the premise when it's the other way around all it would take is two AAs to not like it to make that statement accurate. But It's not just two AA's I would venture to say most wouldn't like hearing that they have a mental disorder and not a disease.
When it was brought up on usenet before many took issue with the notion they had a mental disorder.
|What's with you, can't | comprehend your mother tongue or what? Get with the program.
Who said it was my mother tongue? I've already said English was not my first language. It's clear you can't comprehend it though.
| | > | > | It | > | is quite clear to me that what I suffered from was 'alcohol dependence | > | syndrome' a.k.a alcoholism.
| > | > It is not aka.
| | Sure it is.
Then show the listing for "alcoholism". Can't can you. Know why? cause it doesn't exist.
| | > It is not known as alcoholism Kai.
| | LOL Ask anyone on the street whether it is known as alcoholism. Feel | free to report the results.
alcohol dependence syndrome is not known on the streets kai. You didn't even know it until just a short while ago.
| > You may have had at one | > point a physical dependence on alcohol but that does not indicate that such | > dependence indicates a completley ficticious disease proffered by AAs as | > alcoholism.
| > | > | It includes both a mental disorder and | > | physical dependence.
| > | > You may have a mental disorder and may have had a physical dependenc on | > Alcohol, may still have for all I know, but that would not consititute | > having a disease that does not exist. Namely alcoholism.
| > | > | Naw, can't have a fictitious disease.
| > | > Now you're getting the picture. Only blindness isn't ficticious.
| | Except my reference, as was extremely clear from my post, was to the | fictitious disease called cancer.
|Can't have that one. Check the | ICD-10 if you don't believe me.
carcinoma Kai. You can say it go ahead give it try. And it does exist.
Whereas acloholism doesn't.
| > | > | | > | > Instead of looking for cancer try looking | > | > for carcinoma. You'll find it.
| > | | > | Sure, as you do find alcohol dependency syndrome.
| > | > I already have, long time ago and just recently again. I told you were it | > is in the ICD and what it is.
| > | | > | > And no alcohol dependence syndrome is not a | > | > specific type of alcoholism it's a medical term to descripe physcial | > | > dependence on alcohol.
| > | | > | Not according to ICD-10 it isn't. But what do they know, right?
| > | | > | http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-sb01.html | > | | > | European Description | > | The ICD-10 Cl***ification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders | > | World Health Organization, Geneva, 1992 | > | F10.2 Alcohol Dependence Syndrome | > | | > | A cluster of physiological, behavioural, and cognitive phenomena in | > | which the use of alcohol takes on a much higher priority for a given | > | individual than other behaviours that once had greater value.
| > | > Yes. alcohol dependence syndrome not alcoholism. Alcoholism does not | > exist.
| | Of course it doesn't exist, you snipped it. But, luckily, the mighty | Shub-Internet is mild today and hasn't shut down the Gorenet, so I'm | happy to reproduce it to you: | | "Includes: | * chronic alcoholism" F10.2 Alcohol Dependence Syndrome Alcohol dependence syndrome Kai. When you find a specific code for "Alcoholism" let us know. Until then it's Alcohol dependence syndrome.
| | > You will recall when I asked you to provide the Finnish codes I told | > you I suspected that it wouldn't be alcoholism but rather alcohol | > dependence.
| | It appears the Finnish language codes are not readily available in | electronic form for me to provide.
| "A cluster of physiological, behavioural, and cognitive phenomena..." | | You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between | 'physical dependence' and 'alcohol dependence *syndrome*'.
I understand clearly what alcohol dependence is. I also understand that they've listed a pattern of "behaviors" that collectively comprise that syndrome. Do you?
| Which, BTW, | includes chronic alcoholism, as the link and the text I provided tells us.
And what would that code be for chronic alcoholism be again? You can't claim that alcohol dependence syndrome is alcoholism when the ancilliary note says that it includes chronic alcoholism Kai.
| > It's apparent you see what you want to see Kai.
| | I see no cancer there. Do you?
carcinoma Kai. You can say it.
| > | > Carcinoma is cancer.
| | Alcohol dependence syndrome is alcoholism.
No Kai. Alcoholism doesn't exist except within the context of AAs and their attempts to influence the medical field into accepting it as a disease.
Alcohol dependence syndrome on the other hand does. It's a syndrome of behaviors which cause dependence.

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"Kai" < | | > Just a clarification. Alcoholism does not appear in the ICD. Alcohol | > dependence syndrome does, to indicate physical dependence on Alcohol.
| > | | Really? Then why do they lie to us in the ICD-10 about it?
It doesn't appear in the ICD as a disease, because it's not a disease. If it were it would have it's own ICD code which it doesn't. That's not a lie. What's that code for "alcoholism" again Kai? Come post it for us when you find it.

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

Please post a citation from the ICD-10 which states that alcohol dependence syndrome indicates physical dependence on alcohol. While you're at it, you may also find me the code for "cancer".
Kai

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

"Kai" < | | > "Kai" < | > | staamfa wrote: | > | | > | > Just a clarification. Alcoholism does not appear in the ICD.
Alcohol | > | > dependence syndrome does, to indicate physical dependence on Alcohol.
| > | > | > | | > | Really? Then why do they lie to us in the ICD-10 about it?
| > | > It doesn't appear in the ICD as a disease, because it's not a disease.
If | > it were it would have it's own ICD code which it doesn't. That's not a | > lie. What's that code for "alcoholism" again Kai? Come post it for us | > when you find it.
| | Please post a citation from the ICD-10 which states that alcohol | dependence syndrome indicates physical dependence on alcohol.
Sure this is from your link: (c) a physiological withdrawal state when alcohol use has ceased or been reduced, as evidenced by: the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol; or use of the alcohol with the intention of relieving or avoiding withdrawal symptoms; (d) evidence of tolerance, such that increased doses of alcohol are required in order to achieve effects originally produced by lower doses (clear examples of this are found in alcohol-dependent individuals who may take daily doses sufficient to incapacitate or kill nontolerant users); All of the others are lists of behaviors.
|While | you're at it, you may also find me the code for "cancer".
Already gave them to you Kai. "carcinoma" which means cancer. On the flip side you may feel free to provide the code for "alcoholism" and refrain from trying to post the code for "alcohol dependence syndrome" as it does not mean alcoholism.

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

Kai sobe...@nospamo.luukku.com

Uh-huh. Okay. But you forgot to paste the part that says it 'indicates physical dependence'. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even mention the word 'physical' in the code now does it? Why do you feel you need to change the wording and the meaning of the description in the code to suit your needs?
Kai

"staamfa" staam...@yahoo.com

| | > "Kai" < | > | | > | Please post a citation from the ICD-10 which states that alcohol | > | dependence syndrome indicates physical dependence on alcohol.
| > | > Sure this is from your link: | > (c) a physiological withdrawal state when alcohol use has ceased or been | > reduced, as evidenced by: the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for | > alcohol; or use of the alcohol with the intention of relieving or avoiding | > withdrawal symptoms; | > | > (d) evidence of tolerance, such that increased doses of alcohol are required | > in order to achieve effects originally produced by lower doses (clear | > examples of this are found in alcohol-dependent individuals who may take | > daily doses sufficient to incapacitate or kill nontolerant users); | > | > All of the others are lists of behaviors.
| | Uh-huh. Okay. But you forgot to paste the part that says it 'indicates | physical dependence'.
That's in there. Read it again. What do you think alcohol-dependent individuals who... means? They've become physically dependent on alcohol.
|As a matter of fact, it doesn't even mention the | word 'physical' in the code now does it?
Look up the word physiological Kai.
|Why do you feel you need to | change the wording and the meaning of the description in the code to | suit your needs?
That's you Kai. You're claiming dependence syndrome is alcoholism even though the ancilliary note , on that site, claims that the syndrom includes the behavior of chronic alcoholism, or the behavior of abusive drinking.
Not that it says it includes that behavior not is the syndrome.

Virtualoso virtual...@dot.com

In article <Ultwb.27241$gr.8187@okepread04>, staamfa And, yet, such so-called "mental disorders" are fictitious "illness".
Mere "descriptive" diagnosis and purely speculative theoretical Beliefs based on some imaginary conceptual ideas. Often rather multivarious, sloppy, overlapping and especially difficult to even articulate to distinct, reliable criteria.
And there's no "cure" for these "mental illnesses", even if there are hundreds of "treatments" continually fashioned, and progressively disproved.
Much "better" just how?

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