Running away in a fight
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p ...@runestonegames.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Grogan)
A situation occurred the other day when one fighter wanted to run away from the other one. The fighter who was running away (Bob) had a move of 4. His opponent (Fred) also had a move of 4.
We use a d6+move for initiative at the start of combat and Bob had won.
They are facing each other in adjacent hexes.
Bob picks the move maneuver, B103 says that he can change facing before moving, so he turns around (3MP) and then moves 1 hex away.
Fred steps and attacks and since the attack is from the rear, it's very likely to hit. This works for me. If Bob is stupid enough to turn his back on his attacker, he should get hit, only thick armour is gonna save him.
Lets say Fred misses. Next turn, Bob moves away at full movement rate (4), now Fred also has to choose the move maneuver to catch him, which means his attack is a wild swing and a lot less likely to hit. Again, I'm happy with this for now.
But lets say Fred misses again, what happens now is that Bob can never get away. He moves 4 hexes away, as does Fred, but Fred keeps getting an attack.
At this point, I just winged it and said Fred could have one wild swing, but after that he'd never catch him, unless he dumped his backpack and increased his move to 5, then he'd have a chance.
Whilst I'm here, I've always been a bit puzzled about the move maneuver, and tactical movement in general. B102 says that you must change facing appropriately for each hex you enter as follows: When going forward, either turn to face the hex you enter (movement cost 1) or sidestep into it (cost 2).
So, is it turn to face the hex (cost 1) and then move into it (cost 1), for a total cost of 2. From my little knowlege of running around, I would have thought running at a small angle doesn't really slow you down much (reflected by the sprint bonus for really straight forward movement), so I would interpret this as follows: On a move maneuver, you may enter any of the 3 forward hexes, turning to face it and then moving into it at a cost of 1MP. If you want to make any extra hexside changes, then they cost 1MP each.
Cheers All
MA Lloyd mallo...@io.com
On 22 Aug 2001, Paul Grogan wrote: If Fred's Basic Speed is higher it might well be that Bob *can* never get away, but in this particular case I think Bob gets a move bonus for running in a straight line for more than a turn, which Fred does not since he took another action. ***uming Bob didn't try an Active Defense that is.
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-- MA Lloyd (mallo...@io.com)
glhan ...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen)
I don't know how it should work out in the game rules, but in my experience it's very easy to disengage -- you just turn and run when there's not something heading quickly toward you. You suddenly put enough distance between yourself and your opponent that he can't just swing at you, he has to chase you and catch up to you.
It's more than just an All-Out Defense with a Retreat. It's not just a controlled backwards movement. You leave, fight's over.
I suppose some sort of Contest versus Speed would be in order to see if he ultimately gets away.
It's no trouble to pivot while jumping or shuffling around. A change in direction is essentially free.
--
"'No user-serviceable parts inside.' I'll be the judge of that!"
"Wrathchild" wrathch...@hippie.dk
You have to take eventual fractions of basic speed into account here, when the running is getting upwards of 10 seconds. A difference of 0.5 on basic speed will effectively let the faster character remove himself from the other by 1 yard every other second. See Basic Set p. 88 under Running.
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Wrath
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" Try to realize the truth ... " " ... What truth ? ... " " There is no spoon ... "
"Bryan J. Maloney" bj...@cornell.edu
This is why I obliterated hexes and use ungridded movement in my games.
--
"A 'Cape Cod Salsa' just isn't right."
s ...@hotmail.com (st3ph3nm)
Not quite right. The front left or right hexes can be moved into EITHER as normal (turn, move - 2 points - but you're still facing in the new direction) or as a side step forward ("slide" without changing facing for 2 points).
Of course, I haven't looked at the rules on this for about 3 years, so this is just my interpretation (and may well be coloured by my Battletech experience!) Take it with some grains of salt...
Cheers, Steve
Bill Seurer B...@seurer.net
That's the sprinting bonus. +1 to move when you run flat out for more than one turn.
"Wrathchild" wrathch...@hippie.dk
I've often thought about that one too. It'd do away with things like half-hexes in corridors or rooms as well as the hex-side changes as well as the fact that on a grid, running in a straight line and in an angled line can be the same number of hexes - minor things I can live with, but a gridless board might be fun to try. I geuss you have to use a ruler a lot, though.
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Wrath
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" I know Kung Fu ! " " Show me ... "
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
Not in my case. I started running my games without hexes awhile ago.
mostly to make it less mechanistic and to speed up combat, get rid of hex counting. It calls for trust on my players part but I can let them get away with more without them being 1 hex short or that slam. It also makes it easier for me to have villains escape for dramatic purposes so it works both ways. Using a ruler for movement would defeat the purpose.
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
No, he had it right the first time. You can move into any front hex for 1 movement point as long as you turn to face that hex.
Possibly.:)
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
No, Bob did a move maneuver to get away, Fred followed with a move and a wild swing. This does not prevent Fred from sprinting along with Bob.
Bob's first move (turning around) doesn't count for the print since it wasn't in a straight line.
jeff suzuki je...@bu.edu
You're allowed one free facing change at the end of a full move, or if you only do a 1/2 move, you can change to face any direction that you want at the end.
I'd amend that to be _once per turn_ (in which case, keep it simple and use the rule as stated in the book, which is that the facing change takes place at the _end_ of the turn, or, if you want to modify it, allow the facing change to take place at the _beginning_ of the turn, which seems a little more useful to me).
Let's look at the case under consideration: one free facing change per turn effectively means that Bob can run in a circle with a radius of 12 feet at full speed (12 feet/second), thus making one circuit in six seconds. I can accept that as realistic. Under your proposed modification, it is possible that Bob can run at full speed in a circle of 3 foot radius, making a full circuit in 1.5 seconds. This doesn't seem realistic. Centripetal acceleration would be v^2/r = 48 ft/sec^2, or 1.5 g; in order to keep from slipping, the shoes have to have a coefficient of friction of 1.5 or higher, which means the shoes would allow him to walk up a 60 degree slope without slipping. I don't think this is possible, but if you doubt it, here's a test: set up a plank---the surface must be as flat and smooth as level ground to be a reasonable test---at 60 degrees, and see if you can walk up it without slipping. First see if you can _stand_ on it without slipping; coefficient of static friction tends to be higher than coefficient of dynamic friction.
In case you're going to say "But people can climb mountains with 60 degree slopes etc.", note that in general, they're not climbing 60 degree slopes; they're climbing slopes that average 60 degrees.
Shoes go in the flatter places: even a sheer rock face has flatter places.
Jeffs
jeff suzuki je...@bu.edu
Within the rules as stated in the Basic book, the situation evolves as follows: suppose they begin as _ /B\ \_/ /F\ \_/ facing each other. Fred back pedals two hexes and turns one hex facing.
Bob moves two and wild swings; it's still a front attack, so Bob is at a penalty to attack but Fred is at no penalty to defend: the combat map looks like _ /B\ \_/ */F\ \_/ where Fred is facing * and Bob is facing Fred.
(Note that Fred could simply turn one hex; if he did so, I would allow him to use All Out Defense, argument being that AOD allows you to move _one_ hex, and changing one hex facing ordinarily costs one movement) Next turn, Fred back pedals two more steps and turns one more hex.
(Again, Fred could turn one hex and AOD; this time, he might want to) Bob moves two and wild swings again; this one's a flank attack, so Fred's potentially at a penalty to defend (hence the AOD option): Fred is facing hex *.
_ _ _/B\_ / \_/ \_/F\ \_/2\_/*\_/ / \_/3\_/ \_/ \_/ \ /1\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \ Third turn, Fred does a full move to 1. Bob, on the other hand, can turn one facing, enter *, turn another facing, and enter 3, ending two hexes away from Fred. Or Bob can turn two hexes, and take two steps, ending at 2, still two hexes from Fred. The next turn, Fred runs 4 + 1 = 5 hexes away, and Bob runs 4 hexes, and is now 3 hexes behind Fred.
Jeffs
"Strider Starslayer" refam...@sympatico.ca
True, but Fred can't be sprinting after bob if he's also swinging at him, if I recall correctly.
msar ...@cc.hut.fi
: Fred steps and attacks and since the attack is from the rear, it's : very likely to hit. This works for me. If Bob is stupid enough to : turn his back on his attacker, he should get hit, only thick armour is : gonna save him.
Now if a guy wants to run out of a fight in GURPS the best way to do it is first to take a wait maneuver. Wait until opponent has acted, then step back and turn with your waited maneuver and run. Gives you a small advantage for running away, because you prepared for that and your opponent didn't. Of course he can also take the wait maneuver, and then you have to do something else.
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Mikko * Ainoa ero minun ja hullun v?¤lill?¤ on se, * <i...@iki.fi> * ett?¤ min?¤ en ole hullu * - Salvador Dali
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
You can, but you're definitely in house rule territory now. The rules for movement are pretty clear and they allow you to turn to face each forward hexas you enter it.
It's not a modification, it's the way the rule works. If you want to use your house rule go ahead. I'll let the physics geeks argue over which is more realistic. I don't have a problem using the rule as printed - when I use hexes at all. The movement rules can be tedious enough without slowing fighters even more.
All the power to you.
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
No, it doesn't Actually, he can back up one hex and face any direction he wants and still AOD (BS102 Facing changes during movement) B is in F's front hex (one of them) - there is no penalty to defense Also, B probably has enough movement to get in F's front-most hex if he wants to What Bob does, ***uming he hasn't had an aneurism, is move to his front right hex (*), turning to face it (1 hex), move into hex 3 (2 hexes), move forward 2 more hexes (into Fred's hex (1) and slam him from behind, automatically winning the DX contest, ST is at +4, probably knocking poor Fred down, now at Bob's mercy. Oh, he can also attack with a Wild Swing before he enters F's hex - no defense if he hits.
You did say this was using the rules as written.
jeff suzuki je...@bu.edu
At a cost of 1 movement point...I think. Looking over B102-3, the rules can be interpreted in two ways.
B102 begins with: "You must change facing appropriately for each hex you enter...
either turn to face the hex you enter (movement cost 1)..." This _sounds_ like you get a free facing change. But the rule continues on B103 with: "You may also change facing before you start a Move maneuver, or during the move---but this costs movement points. A facing change costs 1 for each hex-side of change." Which sounds like you've got to pay for the facing change. Given that not paying for the facing change gives unrealistic results, I'm inclined to think that the "movement cost" listed is the cost of _forward_ movement, not including any facing change costs.
Jeffs
jeff suzuki je...@bu.edu
It's debateable. All Out Defense allows you to move one hex in any direction; it says nothing about allowing a facing change (and this may be prohibited by the "and do nothing else" line in the descrpition). A backwards move doesn't ordinarily require a facing change (also from B102).
Jeffs
Luke Campbell lwc...@u.washington.edu
Just a nitpick, the friction between your shoes and the ground (or slope) is static friction whether you are walking or standing. It only becomes dynamic friction when you start sliding.
And yes, I have stood on and walked up slopes of 60 to 70 degrees before.
Not something I'd try without good shoes (although barefoot would probably work),and you have to be careful, and ready to catch yourself when you slip.
What I walked up were "smooth" (on the scale of shoes, at least) shear surfaces - concrete, wood, and the like. Certainly nothing so slick as to be slippery, you need a fair amount of surface roughness, on the scale of sand grains or wood fibers, to get enough friction to support your weight.
Basic ground is bound to be rougher than this on a much larger scale, so the example should apply here, as well. Of course, this applies to hard surfaces only, asphalt, concrete, wood floors, carpet, and the like.
If walking up loose soil, the soil can slip, but it can also give to allow you a flatter surface. I'd expect the same if running on soil.
So, a human running in a 1 meter radius circle while moving at 6 meters per second seems workable, but just barely, and it depends on the surface and the shoes being worn. Try this on wet gr*** and you probably end up on your face. Also keep in mind there is a fair amount of slop here. Since the grid only has a 1 meter resolution, the actual radius of the circle can vary from 0.5 meters to 1.5 meters, so the centripital acceleration varies from about 2 g to about 1 g. Faster people can be considered to be running on the outer edge of the hex if you want to justify things to yourself.
Luke
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
This makes it pretty clear that AOD is *not* an exception to the one hex maneuvers.
Under Forward Movement and Facing it clearly states that facing restrictions only apply to Move, AOA and Wait. "Other maneuvers do not restrict your facing when you move!" Since it clearly mentions a restriction to one 1-hex maneuver (wait) and not AOD it's clear that AOD is not an exception.
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
How explicit do they have to be for you. You change facing, enter that hex aand it costs you 1 hex of movement. Period.
The example on the sidebar shows the same thing: 3 1 hex movements turns you around 180 degrees.
It also matches the cost of sidestepping into a front hex:move 1 hex forward, including facing change(1) and then turn back 1 hex.
There is no contradiction here at all. These facing changes are additional optional changes in case you want to turn faster. Hence the words "also may". This is in addition to the basic forward movement.
No, it *sounds* like you may *optionally* turn sharper than the normal, free, 60 degree turn you get while moving forward. I've never argued that the rules are realistic or not. Just that it's obvious what they meant, whether it's realistic or not.
Ozzy Ryder NOSPAMo...@easynet.fr
It sounds like old cl***ical wargame rule you don't pay for changing one hex face IF you enter a new hex, but if you stand still and want to change facing, then you also pay as for movement.
At least it's how l interpret it and play it if l apply strictly the rule.
Now, l could suggest something for "fleeing" maneuver: the cost for a 180?° face change could be just 1 IF the fleeing subject will not try to defends himself by any means while fleeing.
Like that, the fleeing person has a better chance to put distance between him and his foe.
We could apply this rule because we must consider the person that _initiate_ the move has always a little bit of time before another person react (between 0.1 to 1 sec, 0.5 average, based on athletism and car "reflexes times").
After the "race starts", the pursuer can only use his own speed to try to catch the fleeing person.
regards
Darrell Hiebert wicked.les...@home.com
I like this but, unfortunately it's still not enough. The chaser will still catch up if he's move of 1 less. If they have an equal move he can slam from behind. Maybe if you limited the chaser to 1/2 move since he wasn't expecting it. Maybe avoidable by Body Language vs Acting.
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msar ...@cc.hut.fi
: "You must change facing appropriately for each hex you enter...
: either turn to face the hex you enter (movement cost 1)..." : This _sounds_ like you get a free facing change. But the rule : continues on B103 with: : "You may also change facing before you start a Move maneuver, or : during the move---but this costs movement points. A facing change : costs 1 for each hex-side of change." : Which sounds like you've got to pay for the facing change. Given : that not paying for the facing change gives unrealistic results, : I'm inclined to think that the "movement cost" listed is the cost : of _forward_ movement, not including any facing change costs.
Note that if you don't allow moving to the left or right front hex you will get some very odd results. For example if you are not running in the direction of one of the hexes, but in between your running will look like this: /\/\/ Consider all those changes of direction to bo frontal left, or frontal right. Now you propose that running in that direction costs double compared to running ------. Does that seem realistic to you?
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Mikko * Ainoa ero minun ja hullun v?¤lill?¤ on se, * <i...@iki.fi> * ett?¤ min?¤ en ole hullu * - Salvador Dali
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