birth control
Related Topics
twa ...@indiana.edu (T Waite)
This topic hasn't been kicked around for a while so I thought I'd toss it out there: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints strongly encourages married couples to have children. It is against birth control. In a letter from the First Presidency to bishops and stake presidents, dated April 14, 1969, the Church's philosophy is expressed: "We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity.
"Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by." With this statement from the First Presidency as background, it may be useful for Latter-day Saints to know that there is considerable scientific evidence in opposition to the alarmist view concerning the population explosion." Philip F. Low, "Realities of the Population Explosion," Ensign, May 1971, 18
"Xan Du" xan...@yahoo.com
I think the ability of humans to have meaningful sexual relationships outside the context of simple procreation is a "blessing." I seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of "the Church" that choosing the time and place of bearing children is dictated by their Bishop.
Tell it to India and China.
When we run out of oil, and have to resort to farming by using traction animals, I'll be really interested in reading about the realities of the soundness of the _Ensign's_ scientific opinion.
-Xan
"diana" di...@as.net
"Xan Du"wrote> <snip to> It isn't dictated by the Bishop. We don't use birth control to limit birth simply for financial reasons, or for the convenience. We DO use birth control where there are health or genetic problems. There is nothing wrong with that, and as for the Bishop, I didn't notice a question about birth control in the Temple Recomend interview.
China IS using birth control. A rather draconian, albeit effective, birth control.
I know that you aren't suggesting that we adopt similar methods. However, we do feel that the decision to use birth control is a very personal one, and yeah, the church rather heavily encourages large families. Still, it is between you and the Lord.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
twa ...@indiana.edu (T Waite)
I feel sorry for people trying to raise 8-12 kids on the average US income! I feel sorry for the kids as well. I have 3 kids and it is hard enough to trying to provide for them and finding quality time to spend with them. I can't imagine having 8-12! Which is why in a couple weeks I will be getting snipped, contrary to the advice of the GHI! Gasp! Pills are not an option because they are not recommended for people who have a history of liver disease in their family and my wife's father just had a liver transplant. Condoms are no fun and they aren't 100%. The big V seems like the simplest method for us. I wonder what percentage of mormon men have had the big V?
It's a bit easier to fall for that information when you were living in the sparsely populated state of Deseret. Isn't there evidence that indicates overpopulation which led to depleted natural resources is what wiped out the Mayan population? As well as numerous other ancient civilizations?
Maybe the Nephite's and Lamanites were always at war over food supplies? At least those huge battles kept their population count low!
Silly Xan, Christ will have returned by that time! Then we'll all have eternal bodies that dont need food. Besides the earth will be a big gl*** ball, so there won't be any point in using oxen to try and till it!
"Xan Du" xan...@yahoo.com
Sorry Diana, I forgot about that free agency thingy.
Financial and emotional preparation are essential to create the most nuturing environment. Advocating couples to have children before they are ready to is ridiculous. I guess the alternative is abstinence?
This is OT, sorry -- it's just something I'm interested in. If you were pregnant with a child with three number 18 chromosomes, would you carry the fetus to term, or elect to terminate the pregnancy? (Most trisomy 18 pregnancies carried to term are stillborn -- if not, the child dies within hours or weeks of birth.) That's irrelevant. It's an important enough issue that it's been written up in the _Ensign_ several times. Whether they're "supposed to" or not, Bishops do offer counsel on the proper time to have children.
Of course not. Especially since other more "convenient" and effective methods of birth control exist.
If I was God, and less than one percent of my children were members of my one true church, I might be motivated to have that fraction of a percent to raise up as much seed to me as possible.
In the same line of thinking, if I was the leader of a church that saw convert baptisms per full time missionary drop 50% over ten years, I'd for sure be telling the flock have more kids.
That's a lie Mormons tell themselves when GAs speak strongly about something that they don't quite agree with.
-Xan
"Xan Du" xan...@yahoo.com
Congrats on thinking for yourself.
I only know of one other. But he's an apostate now. Unfortunately, he didn't get snipped until after the 8th child.
I don't know of any specific research on that subject. But it is certainly well known that local overpopulation often leads to local depopulation.
It's less of an issue in today's world of refrigerated transportation, greenhouse farming, etc. Famines in Africa are primarily political, not economic.
Naw, the Lamanites were simply bloodthirsty, wayward savages who were evil to the core.
Amazing that such small populations became the principal ancestors of contemporary Native Americans.
By gosh, you're right. How silly of me.
[or tapirs] I wonder who's going to polish all that gl*** . . .
-Xan
Cheap Suit cheaps...@dangerous1.com
Not me. I'm upstairs on the mop crew.
--
Best, don m Don Marchant Dangerous1.com Cheapsuit @ Dangerous1.com A morning without coffee is like something without something else.
Now playing: "emperor of wyoming" by Neil Young
"Helen" he...@optushome.com.au
The size of a family is personal . There are some who can cope with having many children and some who are happy with a few.
I am a happy and devoted mother of two boys, but I would be a stressed out and snaky mother of three or more.....We have as many as we can emotionally and physically cope with. Plus, some of us get very sick with each pregnancy and after the birth, thus putting the whole notion of lots of kids in a different perspective..I think it is up to how many children the wife feels capable and happy with carrying. After all, it is her body and state of health that is effected , not her husbands...( well, not directly anyway!!)
"Helen" he...@optushome.com.au
Who do you think?? The bloody women of course.....
midori ...@aol.comnospam (Mids)
I have a friend who says she'll be d**ned if she is going to let anyone from the church even SUGGEST anything pertaining to her body. In addition, she says that the day Bishops start spreading their legs and having kids, THEN she'll consider it. LOL * * * * *~ ~ ~ ~ ~ * * * * * Mids My light shall be the moon and my path - the ocean . . . My guide the morning star as I sail home to you . . .
"Lee Paulson" lrpaul...@earthlink.net
But if it's in the Ensign, it's scripture!
Truly, I think an awful lot of men have trouble with the idea of birth control, particularly of the vasectomy sort. I don't think religion is that big a factor in whether to obtain one for most men.
rogercov ...@hotmail.com (Roger C. Covalt)
Big families-you got to decide what number is enough. When both parents have to work to support the kids (NOT lifestyle-many of us already live a lifestyle that is too expensive), then that is too many.
Big thing is to keep it simple and to keep one of the parents at home for the kids. And yes that it hard (I live in southern Calif, and it's very expensive here), but somehow you cut back and do without.
On 28 Jul 2002 22:06:17 -0700, twa...@indiana.edu (T Waite) wrote:
"Xan Du" xan...@yahoo.com
<snip> The Priesthood is the power to act in the name of God, but the women do most of the work. What a great gig. Almost makes me want to go back.
-Xan
"Xan Du" xan...@yahoo.com
I didn't forget it. I'm simply of the opinion that "Free Agency" is an illusion. A sort of "let them eat cake" concept, only more effective.
I guess I don't understand the rationale behind carrying an unviable fetus to term. So much trauma. For what . . . building character?
At this point, perhaps I should disclose that I used to work in a pediatric morgue ***isting in autopsies. A woman in my Ward carried a Tri-18 fetus to term, and I witnessed the aftermath in an unusually comprehensive manner.
Interesting claim.
"Traditionally, the test has been offered to women who would be 35 years of age or older at delivery, because the risk of a trisomy (1 in 180) is about equal to the risk of miscarriage from the procedure (about 1 in 200)." http://www.stanford.edu/~holbrook/Amniocentesis.html Was your case different?
either.
The woman in me says that I'd terminate a fetus with Down Syndrome.
Some people see this as more distasteful than abortions performed to terminate a normal fetus which is the product of incest or rape. A real head-scratcher there. Must be a guy thing. :-) Or neural tube defects . . .
Because *you* believe that your prophylactic practices are none of Salt Lake's business.
control, As a person who thinks that total pre-marital abstinence is impractical, if not downright harmful, I think condoms are a good idea for a number of reasons.
I can't wait to see what the _Ensign_ has to say about big families when the oil runs out.
That's a demonization, and an oversimplification. Personally, I don't think that abortion is a decision that should be made lightly. However, I also don't think that the goverment should be legislating on abortion based upon thinking about when the "spirit" enters the body.
Stereotype.
Hmm, I wonder which produces more greenhouse gas over its lifetime: the car, or the baby. I'll have to get back to you on this one.
Not according to the "thinking has been done" crowd.
baby?
Well, it depends on the trisomy. Trisomy 18 is 100% lethal. Trisomy 21 is not.
Are we talking poetry here, or four-letter words?
Giggle. "Xan" was a childhood friend of mine. His full name was Alexander. I was always jealous that he had a great nickname, and that my nickname sucked.
Well, you're playing chicken with a bunch of fuzzy and often conflicting verbiage on the part of LDS leaders here. With all the discussion that goes on here from faithful members about what constitutes doctrine, canon, scripture, etc., it's a real wonder to me that anyone stays awake in General Conference, much less takes any of it to heart.
Hey, I have four siblings myself, and I wouldn't trade one of them in now that I've gone through the ordeal of growing up with them. I won't deny that children are a joy to their parents.
But I am cursed to be a global thinker. What if everyone had five kids?
How does a goverment decide who has five kids, and who only has one or two? Mightn't it be better if everyone spontaneously decided to have only the 2.2 children required to propagate the species at its present population?
-Xan
faire ...@aol.com (Faireday)
<But I am cursed to be a global thinker. What if everyone had five kids? How does a goverment decide who has five kids, and who only has one or two?
Mightn't it be better if everyone spontaneously decided to have only the 2.2 children required to propagate the species at its present population?> OK, my two cents worth. Your ideal 2.2 children per couple will never happen in the real world, unless we become like China and force mothers to abort when they go over the allowed number of children. What will happen is what has happened since the advent of effective birth control. The more highly educated end of the spectrum (Group A) will have 1 or 2 children, thus allowing Mom and Dad more time and money to spend on themselves. The poor and those of lower intelligence (Group B) will have large families, for a variety of reasons that have existed from the beginning of time. Net result - the overall intelligence of the human race gets dumber, as there are fewer in group A contributing to the gene pool than those in Group B.
Thank goodness for religious groups like the LDS and Catholics who have more than one or two children. As the majority of the Latter Day Saints I know are moderately intelligent or better and most put a decent effort into educating their children, I frankly see them as one of the positive lights in the fight against the overall dumbing down that we've seen in the last 40 years in this country.
Deb
"Lee Paulson" lrpaul...@earthlink.net
Darn. I knew I shouldn't have had the surgery after my last child!
Actually, the majority of LDS are not even in the US and, I guess, are not the beneficiaries of great educations in impoverished countries.
"diana" di...@as.net
Lee, the fact that they are LDS in the first place tells us that their intelligence is higher than the average.
.........and you KNEW this was coming from somebody, a straight line like that is irresistible.
(Grin)
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
graleigh ...@cs.comQQQ (GRaleigh345)
In a free society, the use of birth control automatically deselects the reproduction of those at least capable of figuring out how to use it. What one gets is an increase of people who think condoms are birthday baloons. Birth control guarantees that in a few generations, Bevis and Butthead will be the majority of the population.
Raleigh God alone is the judge and searcher of hearts. For that reason he forbids us to make judgments about the internal guilt of anyone." Vatican II as quoted by Joan Acocella in THE NEW YORKER, July 22, 2002
"Helen" he...@optushome.com.au
Have you ever met or worked with a person with downs syndrome ? I have, many, and I can safely say that the parents never wished they had not been born.
This approach is like a form of "genetic rationalism" , a persons worth should not depend on their intellectual abilities nor their physical abilities. Hitler thought this way, and he thus g***ed to death not only the Jews and Gipsies but children and adults with mental retardation.
What allows us to determine what sort of quality of life they may or may not have? Or what they have to offer our world?And who cares if they have little to offer in regards to economics ?? We have no right to decide their worth...
People with disabilities are not sub human,neither are people with mental illness..Have you ever seen the sci-fi movie "Gattiga" ( I think that is how it is spelled) It is an extreme, yet highly credible take on what could happen to out society if genetic testing were to go too far. ..A sub human cl*** based solely on their genetic make up. Something that I think many a right wing bureaucrats in Washington would just love, not to mention the health insurance companies...
"Helen" he...@optushome.com.au
By the way..replenish means to replace not populate...
We replace our selves ....".Go forth and multiple"..do you think God meant " Have many babies, even if you can not support them economically and emotionally"?
Or did he mean multiply in a mathematical term??
"Helen" he...@optushome.com.au
A valid point but is sounds like you are an bit of a l snob......
Yes, the LDS church does value education. However, ask any average member what the educated women are meant o so once they have obtained their degrees or qualifications. The answer may or may not dismay you somewhat.....
"Helen" he...@optushome.com.au
Really.!!!
"Lee Paulson" lrpaul...@earthlink.net
snip I think children with Down's Syndrome are unusual in their acceptance, for whatever reason. I too know parents of such children, and they simply adore them. The children are generally loving and helpful.
However, I doubt that is the case for other genetic disorders. A friend has an adult child with neurofibromatosis who has been difficult all his life as a result. (He's a giant, retarded, deaf, largely blind, and has heart trouble and of course, numerous tumors.) My friend had her 15-year-old child die from the illness. She is terrified what will happen to her son when she and her husband die. He likely will be institutionalized permanently. And even now, most people shun the boy and some are downright cruel.
"diana" di...@as.net
So have I worked with many Downs syndrome children and adults. I would never, ever, regret having such a child.
I can see your point about the health insurance people, but 'right wing"????? Helen, it isn't the RIGHT wingers who are out to do genetic research and tampering.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
| To Top |