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Don May donbi...@home.com
Seems that most times I relate a past adverse life experience I can expect an automatic response from a few folks here that I enjoy being a victim based on the ***umption that it is an attempt to gain attention and personal sympathy.
Most of us have known folks whose life is one great tragedy and they seem to love reminding you of that. I suspect this wallowing in their misfortune brings them a reward, most likely gaining attention which makes them feel loved in a strange sort of way, attention and love they are missing from other sources in their lives. I know people like that.
They call up to tell you about how horrible there last operation was. The tenor of their voice is one of pride that their operation was as bad as it could get. Makes me feel like they think I have a gold star to award them and they are calling to collect it. There are other reasons to share past injustices than to gain sympathy and attention. One is a reminder of past mistakes with the hope we can learn from them and in some small measure prevent future generations from the same indignities.
I have a good life now. A fine mate for the past 22 years. A home, great neighbors all living in a peaceful environment.
We do have rare minor disagreements, none which has anything to do with our very diverse race, ethnicity and sexual orientation mix. Bill and I are seen as "just another couple." My day is not consumed with the past nor "being gay" it's more about fixing the old faucet on the sink, grocery shopping, and keeping a hundred year old wood house from becoming part of my compost pile.
However, as I age I see some of the same injustices I faced in the past still living on. I hear of, read of, and have met parents whose children have died by their own hand, children who were going through many of the same conflicts I faced as a gay youth. I thought about taking my own life on many occasions as a teen but somehow I found the strength to go on, but far too many children do not.
You would think in this age of increased awareness and tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual teens.
Intolerance of diversity down at the high school level is still a major problem. Most attempts to teach teens tolerance for their gay peers is loudly opposed, labeled as "promoting a gay lifestyle" based on the wrong ***umption anyone can be recruited to change their sexual orientation.
The message sent out to gay teens struggling with the discovery of their feelings is that gay is wrong, they are wrong, biological mistakes. Unable to cope with the constant fear of rejection of friends, family, and religion they take their own lives. And that is truly sad. All teen suicide regardless of sexual orientation is tragic.
These are our children, they are the future. I happen to think that in a sense all children are our children regardless of who gave birth to them and whether we are, married, single, of any particular race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation parents have the responsibility and society has the responsibility to nourish them and protect them.
When you scoff, make fun, attempt to invalidate my experience I can handle that, I'm a big boy now. But when you stand in my way of trying the best I know how to prevent future deaths by writing of my childhood experiences with the hope of bringing about a small amount of understanding and tolerance that may save a life you are just another pot hole on the path to that goal. Think about that for about five minutes . . . during that time another teenager will have committed suicide.
Don
Dr Zen dr_...@my-deja.com
I think the impression is that you're a one-trick pony, Don.
Or guys who got gay-bashed and think that makes them "special", you mean? You cannot expect people to love you more for it, Don. It seems to me, on reasonably short acquaintance with you, that the tenor of your posts is "I am gay and I have suffered for it, and you should be nice and love me for that". Well, hello! There's plenty of suffering in the world, you haven't the monopoly on it.
But none of them really apply in your case.
Give it a break. Tell it to the marines, not a Usenet newsgroup.
Great. That's wonderful.
Sounds fantastic. My neighbours are all white, Aussies or Kiwis of English extraction. ****ing boring actually. I miss my Somali neighbour I had in Shepherd's Bush. Now, he really had had a shitty life. Most positive guy you ever met though.
But you feel the need to whinge about it here. Fine. Whatever. But don't complain when people accuse you of being a bore, Don.
Yes, it's a tragedy. Can we move on now? This is not a ****ing gay teen support group.
Teen suicide is higher in Queensland than it is in the UK. About three times higher, in fact. Nightmare, eh?
What do you think of Israel, Don? Shocking, eh? And did you know that amphetamine use is up, what did that guy say, 70 pc in the last year in Queensland? Idiot kids, eh? What do they think they're doing with amphetamines? They should try smack. In my day, at least the teens steered clear of whizz.
Do you think that whole discussion changed nancy's mind one iota? Or Wayne's? This is a playground, Don, not a pulpit.
Yes.
All suicide is a hundred percent a tragedy for the suicide.
Oh gawd, Don, you'll have me reaching for the lacey. I can't believe you said that. The idea that a teenager's death is any more tragic than the death of someone, say, in their twenties is utterly ridiculous. A death is a death. Don't give me this "they are the future" shit.
Someone you don't know is someone you don't know, period. Deaths are tragic for the people involved and those that know them, no matter what the age or circumstances.
How lovely. You couldn't see your way clear to sending me a couple of hundred dollars, could you? Ever since we had the sprog, money's been really tight. You could call it child maintenance if you like.
I think those who scoff are horrid little pricks, Don. Don't get me wrong, I think it's terrible that you've had hard times. The first time I heard it, I thought, poor guy. The fifteenth time I had got to thinking something different.
The best you could do that was posting to misc.writing?
Gawd, you're low. Most people here don't like an argument, they accuse their correspondents of all kinds. I've been called a few things myself. But you're saying that your detractors are responsible for the deaths of teenagers? You're a bad man, Don, to lay that shit on people.
Here's what it is, though, Don. You like sex with men. Big ****ing deal. I like blondes (my wife's one). End of ****ing story. That's all there is. Let's move on.
Zen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
The Last Real Marlboro Man wl...@home.com
Cite, please.
- Wayne
-----------------------------------------------------
The Tocquevillian http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice
neural_net1 ...@my-deja.com
I'll snip the rest; more of the same. My acquaintance with both of you is about two posts long (one each) but it sounds, Dr. Zen, like you're happily ignoring the tenor of the post you're responding to. Don I thought put his biography into proper perspective and I get no impression he's "whinging" about anything (how do you pronounce that, by the way? I've always wondered). Just pointing out that there is a legit reason or two to relate his story.
Seems to me, if you live such that you might provide a little hope to those who need it, and thus reduce the suicide rate a wee bit, you're doing something a lot more than playing victim.
BTW your comment that teen suicide is 3x in Queensland as in the UK leads me to wonder if that has anything to do with Oz being so notoriously homophobic; a place where even more of those who don't fit in would just rather die. I was in the train station in Cairns once and there was queer graffiti all over the men's room walls. Even I was shocked (and I'm from the San Francisco region). Queensland must have an untold story or two, what?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Don May donbi...@home.com
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:49:52 GMT, Dr Zen Well, I have lived with the same person for 22 years.
I think I was on a sabbatical from mw when you came on board. I like to think some of the folks here who have known me longer know I have a few other tricks up my sleeve.
However I admit I have been fairly narrow focused since you showed up and can understand how you could see me that way.
Stick around I have a few other tricks in my bag of tricks.
Nope. Reading between the lines again are you. It simply means someone beat the shit out of them because they didn't like who they were.
You cannot expect people to love you more for it, Don. It seems Come on Zen, don't buy into that tired old line. It's kind of a one trick pony too if you look at it. What part of "I'm not looking for sympathy" do you not understand. Last thing I want in this stage of my life is to be surrounded by " I love you because I feel sorry for you." That's not love. Well, hello! There's plenty of suffering in Where did you see that in-between the lines? Those darn white spaces again.
You think I am so shallow I think I have a monopoly on it? I see suffering in this world every day. I have a bloody perspective on that. See you have defined me according to your conditioned attitudes. Got news for you. I didn't state I have a monopoly on it and I sure as hell don't think I do.
Explain . . . don't throw out blank statements.
You underestimate the forum.
Thanks I do too.
Zen. . . you only see a part of me here addressing a narrow range of subjects. People who live next door to me think I am very positive and I am most of the time. Serious is just one part of my personality. Did you call that last paragraph whinging? Oh, I see complaining about a broken kitchen faucet and an old house that needs constant repair. <g> This is misc.writing it has a history of covering about every subject under the sun and a few so far out that only the poster seems to know where he is coming from. yep, it is. I've only visited you part of the country once.
I've wondered what is happening over there that drug use is so on the increase. If some of the movies coming out of Australia are any indication of reality . . . big problem.
I don't believed in miracles. <g> What . . . Geno isn't on the list.
Hey, fellow that is your definition of MW . first and foremost it is a play pen. But damned near every one here has taken their turn on the soap box down in the town square.
True.
Slow down . . . Just because I said teen suicide is a tragedy does not exclude any other deaths as not being equally tragic. Think !!! Read my words. You are projecting your thoughts. Look again . . . Where did I say or insinuate that a suicide in any other age group was any the less important to those who know them? I was focusing on teen suicide. Not excluding all others as unimportant. Tisk, Tisk . . . do not resort to sarcasm. Duh . . . what is sprog? And you failed the qualifications . . . I think you are more than just a wee past your teens.
Although it has not been fifty times. You have answered a concern I have had.
I was concerned I was reaching the point of turning some people off.
Again, do not underestimate this forum. I use think too big.
Now if feel if you truly touch one person in a life time you have done something worthwhile.
...
Sara saraz...@uswest.net
Have any of you folks who are convinced that the Good Fairy is a professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly disappointed at how off the mark that ***essment of him is. As for his posts in m.w., the cause for this whole "Don is a victim" thing has just gone completely over my little head because I don't see it.
I guess I'm just a victim of own my own inability to know a victim when I see one. I embrace that victimhood. I guess in the same way certain people can't let any substantive post from Geno go by without accusing him of bigotry, neither can other certain people let any substantive post from Don go by without accusing him of being a victim. It's all just part of the game, huh?
Boy, it sure is fun.
Sara (I think I'd rather go clean the bird poop off the deck)
Don May donbi...@home.com
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:15:41 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man I know of no way to bring you to any other conclusion than the one you came to some time back. However, I suspect if you met me and I you personally our attitudes toward each other would change.
> First I want to make it clear I do not in any way think a gay teen suicide is any more or less tragic than that in the general teenage population. From best I can determine teen suicide is on the rise in all categories. In some areas of the states and the world on an alarming rise.
The most often quoted source for gay male and lesbian youth, I wish there were more recent government reports on the national level, is: U. S. Department of Health and Human Services, "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide," by Paul Gibson, in Report of the Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, ed. Marcia R.
Feinleib, Washington, DC, January 1989 Individual states also have done more recent studies and a search on the web will come up with those studies. I try and look at the overall teen figures as well as those focused on gay teen because from my stand point they are all equally tragic to the families involved.
It is very difficult to come up with exact figures on gay teen suicide for obvious reasons. It is a bit difficult to determine if it was teen suicide for gay reasons unless it was know they were gay, or there was evidence that was found in their belongings, known har***ment at school. or an admission in a suicide note. Many do not leave notes as they have killed themselves because they can not find the strength or support to come out so obviously often do not leave any explanation in a note.
The exact percentage is not really the issue. I used what is generally used in most reports I have read. I suspect I would be better off not giving any percentages, to avoid accusations of distorting the facts in order to raise alarm.
One percent would still be too many. I will do some more research.
The Last Real Marlboro Man wl...@home.com
Funny, the above is the same thing I always say about Royer - not that he needs my defense or anyone else's.
Don invoked the question, Sara. Don't go off on me for answering it as I see it. If one posts here, one is subject to response. No one is off limits - not Don, not me, not you. In fact, in responding to me and mentioning Gene, you are mentioning two people who have been the recipients of more unfounded abuse in this forum than most. We don't whine about it.
Don has always been treated with kid gloves around here, for whatever reason. I, however, have valid questions for him when he posts like this - I don't accept what he says at face value. So far he's been a big boy and held his own in answering them.
- Wayne
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The Tocquevillian http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice
angh ...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic)
hey, what has that deck been up to? i thought he was sick in bed with a cold and he's been chasing BIRDS???
A.
*************************** "If you want a happy ending that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
Deck Deckert d...@dakota.gate.net
Hardly. You and Gene call him a 'victim', for example, and put him down because of who he is, who God made him.
You and Gene are slammed for your posts, for your expressed opinions, not for who you are. Nobody derides you because you are white heterosexual males.
Deck
"Marcus Winberg" xhy7...@nospam.tninet.se
But would you believe it, or give it credit? Knowing your previously expressed views on this subject, I don't think you would. I can point you to the NOVA report in Norway, a Norwegian government report, that said that 25 percent of the people who identified themselves as gay had tried to committ or thought about committing suicide.
Cheers, Marcus
na ...@gekkografx.com (gekko)
I disagree that Don is being treated with kid gloves, but I also (surprise!) disagree with the above.
Don is being called a "victim" because his posts are full of victimhood stories. I'm with Sara, in believing that a person may writer, here, about his or her suffering and not *be* someone who is caught up in victimhood. It takes a lot more than a handful of posts to a newsgroup to define a person.
However, if, as people say concerning geno or wayne, all one has to go on of a person is their posts here, then it's easy to ***ign the characterization of "victimhood" to Don. He writes beautifully, heart-fully and evocatively about the things that happened in his life or how he feels. But they are nearly ALL about what it was like to grow up knowing you loved men, or being in the service and having to hide that, or other (valid, certainly) signs of being a victim.
I love to read Don's posts. I don't consider myself as treating him with kid gloves, because if he says something with which I disagree I will certainly let him know it. But I love reading his perspective and the things he underwent as he grew up. It's *one* of the reasons I'm here. But I can see where someone is deriving "victimhood" from his posts, and not at all from who he is.
Deck, you're making the ***umption that Wayne ***igns that label to all homosexual people, and not just Don. That's fairly narrowsighted. You don't have any way of knowing how Wayne treats homosexuals, nor even what his views on homosexuality are. He's addressing Don's posts only, same as what you and others claim to do with Geno.
--
gekko, formerly known as nancy No, I'm not really here. This is just a drive-by post, as I'm incredibly busy busy busy these days and just absolutely LIVE at my desk doing all kinds of important work and I can't be bothered with newsgroups; you know how it is, but hugs and happy waves to all you who know who you are!
"Marcus Winberg" xhy7...@nospam.tninet.se
[ snip ] But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
But, knowing your previously expressed views on this subject, I fear you wouldn't believe them anyway. I can point you to the NOVA report in Norway, a Norwegian government report, that said that 25 percent of the people who identified themselves as gay had tried to committ or thought about committing suicide.
Would you ask battered women to cite reports showing the prevalence of violence against them before admitting that something ought to be done about men beating their spouses, rather than look at the bruises and disregard the story that they fell down the stairs at home and just happened to loose their teeth whilst falling on their bottoms?
Cheers, Marcus
"Stan (the Man)" s...@optonline.net
Then it should be easy to post a cite.
I'm curious as to what views that Wayne has previously expressed that would lead you to think he wouldn't believe the results of a valid study.
I can point you to the NOVA report in Norway, How does that address the issue for which Wayne was asking Don to cite.
He was asking for a cite for Don's claim that the suicide rate among gay teens is 3 times higher than that of heterosexual teens. Your comment above does not relate to that in any way.
This is a non-sequitur. I don't believe Wayne addressed the issue of doing something about suicide, gay or otherwise. He simply asked for a cite on the claim that 3 times more gay teens commit suicide than heterosexual teens. You've chosen to take a great deal more from that simple question.
I'd be interested in the cite, as well. And, fwiw, I think something should be done to address all teen suicide, whether gay or not.
Stan
"Geno" sireg...@mindspring.com
Sara nailed it. Don is a bigot and I am a victim.
--Geno<glad somebody finally figured it out>Royer
fran ...@i-2000.com (Frank Raymond Michaels)
That's the difference between you and I, Alma...
I see everyone as a *potential* victim...
Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
====================== Frank Raymond Michaels ("Maybe I should write NICE stories once in a while....?") The Horror Fiction Page: http://i2.i-2000.com/~frankmi
"Geno" sireg...@mindspring.com
Being a white, heterosexual male is perfectly normal. Don always decries his bad treatment in life--treatment which he implies is abnormal. Of course! The abnormal are always treated abnormally in general society. It is only in small pockets of society that adoration of selected abnormalities exists, not in the general society. Mw is one of those pockets. You people are sick.
--Geno<normal in every way>Royer
Don May donbi...@home.com
Look fella . . . don't forget I am the one holding the rapid fire, fully automatic wand The Good Fairy (nice twist . . . the horror writer becomes the victim) Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one's definition of your life, but define yourself."
- Harvey Fierstein
angh ...@earthlink.net (Alma Hromic)
frank, *i* am the one that a certain young fella who frequents this very newsgroup once asked in an aggrieved tone of voice whether i had ever heard of happy endings...
A.
*************************** "If you want a happy ending that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
Don May donbi...@home.com
On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:21:54 -0600, "Geno" Are you saying your posts are a figment of our imagination?
Don't give me that normal in every way . . . I saw the photos. PU-leese get a new hair color before you go talking about abnormal folks. If it is your real hair and your real color I apologize and my condolences mother nature was so cruel.
I gave a fellow here some advice on writing, told him to write about what he knew best . . . won't find me making up lines about what it feels like to have fingers running through my hair. Don (need to shave the sides of my head this morning) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one's definition of your life, but define yourself."
- Harvey Fierstein
"acdouglas" acdoug...@monmouth.com
...
Deck Deckert <d...@dakota.gate.net> wrat: I disagree that Don is being treated with kid gloves, but I also (surprise!) disagree with the above.
Don is being called a "victim" because his posts are full of victimhood stories. I'm with Sara, in believing that a person may writer, here, about his or her suffering and not *be* someone who is caught up in victimhood. It takes a lot more than a handful of posts to a newsgroup to define a person.
However, if, as people say concerning geno or wayne, all one has to go on of a person is their posts here, then it's easy to ***ign the characterization of "victimhood" to Don. He writes beautifully, heart-fully and evocatively about the things that happened in his life or how he feels. But they are nearly ALL about what it was like to grow up knowing you loved men, or being in the service and having to hide that, or other (valid, certainly) signs of being a victim.
I love to read Don's posts. I don't consider myself as treating him with kid gloves, because if he says something with which I disagree I will certainly let him know it. But I love reading his perspective and the things he underwent as he grew up. It's *one* of the reasons I'm here.
But I can see where someone is deriving "victimhood" from his posts, and not at all from who he is.
Deck, you're making the ***umption that Wayne ***igns that label to all homosexual people, and not just Don. That's fairly narrowsighted. You don't have any way of knowing how Wayne treats homosexuals, nor even what his views on homosexuality are. He's addressing Don's posts only, same as what you and others claim to do with Geno.
--
gekko, formerly known as nancy No, I'm not really here. This is just a drive-by post, as I'm incredibly busy busy busy these days and just absolutely LIVE at my desk doing all kinds of important work and I can't be bothered with newsgroups; you know how it is, but hugs and happy waves to all you who know who you are!
Don May donbi...@home.com
On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:14:40 -0600, "Geno" <...> Poor guy. Those leftist bleeding heart liberals kicking sand in your face again? Hate crime!
Lost six pounds, can see my willy without sucking in my stomach. A few more weeks at the gym and I can really kick some bad *** sand your way.
Don (at the YMCA singing in the showers "Macho Macho Man, I'm Going to be a Macho Man.") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one's definition of your life, but define yourself."
- Harvey Fierstein
Sara saraz...@uswest.net
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 11:02:39 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man Wow - touchy! That was hardly "going off" - and I sure as hell wasn't singling you out, Wayne. If you'll notice, there are numerous other parties involved in the thread.
Exactly.
Thank you, that was part of my point. People don't listen to each other. We read each other's words and make them fit into the categories we already have for them. That's my perception of what goes on, anyway. Gene is the perfect example - some are inflamed by his posts before they even read them. Silly. That is why I mentioned him, you see? I guess whining is all in the eye of the beholder.
He has? I hadn't noticed.
Of course he has. That's Don. As you said, when one posts, one is subject to response. My response was and is, "Victim? I don't see it." Sara
Don May donbi...@home.com
On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:50:29 -0500, "acdouglas" While I can understand the frequency of my posts with gay subject matter in them would lead you to that conclusion I regret to inform you I am not there yet. I would have to redecorate my house, leave the YMCA and go to a pumped up pretty boy gay gym. Stop hanging out here with all you heteros and only post in exclusively gay news groups.
If you knew as many professional gays as I do you would know just how bad I flunked my application to become one.
I suppose after spending a life time schooled to be a good professional hetero the conditioning was simply too much to overcome.
Tah, off to buy some more Bud and a big screen TV.
Lord, can you say that again.
Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one's definition of your life, but define yourself."
- Harvey Fierstein
fran ...@i-2000.com (Frank Raymond Michaels)
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:31:16 GMT, Don May Yeah, but the safety is on.
(made you look...) Arrgh! By Azathoth's Drool-Pail! Curse you, Good Fairy!!!!!
====================== Frank Raymond Michaels ("Hey, aren't you supposed to give me a wish...?") The Horror Fiction Page: http://i2.i-2000.com/~frankmi
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