OT: Concentration camps for kids.
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"14:30" dancing(removeme)lavois...@hotmail.com
I was linked to this article by a newsletter I subscribe to, called "Wiretap".
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,987172,00.html?... [abstract] When you have a teenager on the rampage, who are you going to turn to? In America, parents send their troubled offspring to Jamaica's Tranquility Bay - a 'behaviour-modification centre' which charges $40,000 a year to 'cure' them.
Along with multiple guards known as 'chaperones', the family mothers and fathers control and scrutinise their children 24 hours a day. The only moment a student is alone is in a toilet cubicle; but a chaperone is standing right outside the door, and knows what he or she went in to do, because when students raise their hand for permission to go, they must hold up one finger for 'a number one', and two for 'a number two'.
Tranquility is basically a private detention camp. But it differs in one important respect. When courts jail a juvenile, he has a fixed sentence and may think what he likes while serving it, whereas no child arrives at Tranquility with a release date. Students are judged ready to leave only when they have demonstrated a sincere belief that they deserved to be sent here, and that the programme has, in fact, saved their life. They must renounce their old self, espouse the programme's belief system, display gratitude for their salvation, and police fellow students who resist.
When most children first arrive they find it difficult to believe that they have no alternative but to submit. In shock, frightened and angry, many simply refuse to obey. This is when they discover the alternative. Guards take them (if necessary by force) to a small bare room and make them (again by force if necessary) lie flat on their face, arms by their sides, on the tiled floor. Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. At dawn they resume the position.
This is known officially as being 'in OP' - Observation Placement - and more casually as 'lying on your face'. Any level student can be sent to OP, and it automatically demotes them to level 1 and zero points. Every 24 hours, students in OP are reviewed by staff, and only sincere and unconditional contrition will earn their release. If they are unrepentant? 'Well, they get another 24 hours.' One boy told me he'd spent six months in OP.
I didn't think this could be true, but it transpired this was not even exceptional. 'Oh no,' says Kay. 'The record is actually held by a female.' On and off, she spent 18 months lying on her face And it gets worse. Much, much worse. Please, tell everyone you know about this horror. Perhaps there is something we can do.
~14:30
u ...@user.com (Ghost)
Why should we do anything? My geuss is the kids are well deserving...
"Jolyon Wright" jwright_______...@saitek.com
you scare me.
Garglemonster garglemons...@my-deja.com
Ghost> Why should we do anything? My geuss is the kids are well Ghost> deserving...
Maybe so, but what do you think is going to happen to the brainwashed little zombies afterwards? Instead of a rebellious teenager you get a psychologically damaged young adult with good manners. They eat all their food and don't talk back, but would you want one for a spouse?
And think of what they've learned about parenting. Yikes!! Sending them to a religous cult would be more humane (and cheaper, too). I would hope you'd eventually get a civil trial which these people would (probably) lose.
Then there's the neo-colonialism of it all. Shipping your kid off to a 3rd World country to be disciplined by underpaid workers sounds like a globalised version of S. Africa, where white parents would have the kids raised by black servants because there were more important things. Or it's maybe it's more like life on the plantation in the American South... or... etc. etc.
Hard to feel sympathy for their tough-love parents who don't want to take the time for the tough love. There's one word for that: bullshit.
I can't help suspecting that the parents were probably the same way when they were kids and their residual guilt and self-image problems are being worked out in a painless (for them) fashion. It's the parents who need a kick in the *** -- but that could be dangerous since it would be too close to their brains.
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garglemons...@my-deja.com The SAME WAVE keeps coming in and COLLAPSING like a rayon MUU-MUU ...
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
>In No dear, in the Ollie household, behaviour modification was free.
satrap the modified version
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
If you taught junior high, you would understand.
Don't be scared at the thought of children being disciplined, be worried about parents who are too blasted lazy to bring up their own kids. They WANT other institutions to rear them: schools, religious institutions, etc. Then, when the kid gets into trouble, the parents want to sue ________________________ (insert the agency or person of your choice). I tell them I will not rear them, because that was not my shout. I didn't make them, and I won't raise them.
If a teen is THAT out of hand, many times the parents have NOT honoured their obligations to their children. I tell my students, "My parents NEVER got a call from my school, and my mother NEVER said, 'I just don't know WHAT to do with her!'. If she didn't know what to do, I never knew it! If she didn't know what to do, she certainly knew how to fake it".
satrap whose parents had enough wisdom to apply the board of education (accompanied by the rod of correction) to the seat of learning
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
When you see 12-year-old girls coming to school with their breasts hanging out, their panties showing, and body parts exposed; and then you hear those girls talk about oral sex, you know they have been on their faces already, for all the wrong reasons. A paradigm shift is very necessary.
My students' parents can't afford $40k to cure them.
And, fut the whuck is wrong with society, when even the boys want to come home with the teacher? These kids are looking for true parents.
u ...@user.com (Ghost)
You go deal with juvenile delinquents (re: criminals) for a while and then come back! *THOSE* are the ones that should scare you... The only thing worse than incorrigible juvenile delinquents is RICH juvenile delinquents!!! Because daddy's money always gets the better lawyer!
"Wilding" is much more common than you think!
u ...@user.com (Ghost)
My thoughts are they are already "psychologocally damaged" before they had to go to that camp!
And they probabbly got that way because their parents were too damned permissive and not attentive to parenting when the kids were younger- as is typical of the more "well to do" crowd. More nanny's were rasing these kids than parents- while the parents were out working or travelling the world... lol!
Hmmm... I am thinking what it would be like if my wife never talked back.... thinking... thinking.. thinking... lol Oh yeah... *THAT* makes sense... NOT!!!
A civil trial over what? The parents are knowingly sending their minor children to this camp, and spending a small fortune to do so.
Now you are really showing your colors here... as if I could not tell where you stood before.
Here we agree. The parents were probably pout making their million dollar deals rather than being home with their kids.
But, since the damage is done, something must now be done to repair these kids to something that could be beneficial to society.
Again, we agree here- at least about the parents being ***holes... as far a s guilt and all that, you are ascribing psychobabble qualities to (stereotypically) selfish people who should never have had children.
"marlinspike" marlinsp...@erols.com.nospam
There are other ways to fix that: take them to Maury and have that drill instructor guy yell at them and give them a non (physically) violent boot camp. It always works on his show!
Richard-making light of a not so funny subject.
...
"marlinspike" marlinsp...@erols.com.nospam
The only problem with this sort of thing is that, while the following may never be the reason for someone to send his/her kid there, it might. What if a parent has a fine child but sends the kid there to be broken so that the parent can then later sexually abuse that child?
Richard
"Jolyon Wright" jwright_______...@saitek.com
your'e right in principal; but what's happening here is the sidestepping of laws put in place to prevent abuse of chlidren. Basically this level of bullying and degradation would be illegal in both the US and the UK. By locating it in Jamaica the "educators" can evade their legal obligations.
I can't see how this can be justified. If it can, legalize it in the first world too.
jolyon ...
Garglemonster garglemons...@my-deja.com
>> They eat all their food and don't talk back, but would you want >> one for a spouse?
Ghost> Hmmm... I am thinking what it would be like if my wife Ghost> never talked Ghost> back.... thinking... thinking.. thinking... lol Since you're as argumentative as I am, my guess is that you'd get bored with that pretty quickly. >> I would hope you'd eventually get a civil trial which these >> people would (probably) lose.
Ghost> A civil trial over what? The parents are knowingly sending Ghost> their minor children to this camp, and spending a small Ghost> fortune to do so.
I think at some point you'll get a kid suing them, or someone suing on behalf of the kid. Also, the possibility of suicide, or of a kid with an undiagnosed health problem or something like anorexia dying on them would seem to be pretty high. Sounds like their insurance policy is secrecy and maintaining the distrust the parents have of the kids, but that won't work forever. The kind of people that spend small fortunes on this kind of thing are also the kind of people that have good lawyers.
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garglemons...@my-deja.com war, what is it good for? absolutely nothing. say it again.
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
Ghost, if you come here and take over the principalship at my school, I promise not to quit teaching and go work for the phone company.
Dave dave2...@gmx.net
These kids and their parents have a problem, but I don't think "deserving" or "not deserving" means anything here, and if it does then it's about the parents.
I wouldn't protest the (hopefully temporary) cruelty, IF IT WORKED. But it can't. You can't force kindness or intelligence into someone. All you get is submission. Submission is always temporary. Those kids are going to come back as experts in the brutal domination of others, and after they recover from their experience, some might be eager to attempt to use it on their parents and anyone else who crosses their path.
Society as a whole has a huge problem to solve, and some parents are obviously saying, "Anything would be better than the way things are now".
They should be careful what they wish for.
David
u ...@user.com (Ghost)
LOL!!! they would not have me!!!
First thing I would do is notify the parents *THEY* are responsible for their children, and the actions of their children! How long do you think I would last!! lol
u ...@user.com (Ghost)
now you are *REALLY* reaching!!!
itsnotham ...@hotmail.com (Matt Gabriel, Mad Poet of Newport)
Abusive prisons never reformed anyone. They harden them instead.
Proof? Check the recidivism rate in the US vs. Canada or Finland (two of the most lenient "soft" correctional systems in the world.) These kids will smile, do their homework, never talk back, and beat the holy shit out of their future wives and kids at the slightest opposition, see laws as guidelines that must be broken to show self worth as soon as no-one is looking, and they will spiral into self destructive behavior as soon as there's no-one around to break their arm or put them in a choke-hold until they p*** out.
You can't drive someone into self discipline, especially a child.
You've got to lead them. It's much, much harder, but the results are worth it.
You should see the refuse that gets dumped into your local Boyscout troop... rich, spoiled brats, developmentally challenged ADD kids, slackers and wise-***es and general troublemakers. If there's a "normal" or "well adjusted" kid in all of Boyscouting, I've never met him. Doesn't matter. The BSA (and other groups, like 4H) manage to teach discipline, self worth and how to live in society without shipping anyone off to Jamaica... unless it's to do some hiking in the jungle. It also teaches leadership, so growing into a responsible adult is contagious... the older kids p*** it onto the younger ones.
We learned by example how a stern, quasi-military approach descends into chaos at the slightest provocation, and we see how positive leadership approach gets everyone on the same path that much quicker.
These "schools" are exercises in radical right-wing fantasy, with no grounding in real psychology and no proven track record. It's fascism and child abuse, and nothing good comes of either.
Matt Gabriel, Former Problem Child
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
I am not sure it's about kindness or intelligence, or even submission. I think it is about the discipline which is lacking in their lives. The sooner a person learns discipline, the better. If you have to learn it later (and teen years are WAY too late), it is going to be drastic. It would be just like trying to get rid of a disease after having it for 15 years. It's way beyond the "take 2 and call me in the morning" stage.
others, and after they recover from their experience, some might be eager to attempt to use it on their parents and anyone else who crosses their path.
Could be, but that is what happens when you try to solve a problem on the back end. And, those kids are already skilled in "brutal domination...", which is why the parents have shipped them off in the first place.
Then, they have to take the responsibility for the "now" when the "now" is still a toddler.
satrap ok, am I the only one here who thinks Barry Manilow is cute???
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
Matt, I don't think abuse serves a purpose at all. I don't think this program is about abuse, but discipline. Part of discipline is understanding that I can't have a fit if stuff doesn't go my way, and stuff is NOT going to go my way. The article started out by asking what to do with a teenager ON THE RAMPAGE.
That's not a kid with a bad hair day. When you are on the rampage, you are possibly a danger to yourself as well as others, and a "warm fuzzy" won't cut it.
satrap who likes warm fuzzies, as long as they are mink
"14:30" dancing(removeme)lavois...@hotmail.com
How do you expect the kids to fight back? This place falls under Jamacian legal jurisdiction. You could, possibly, sue your parents. Jamacia isn't exactly known for a proper civil rights code that is properly enforced. It's even worse than America's.
~14:30
"14:30" dancing(removeme)lavois...@hotmail.com
Problem is, these kids are sent to this place by their parents. These kids may have severe problems, likely due to inept parents, or their parents may simply be insane and sending a kid there for being just a hair too s***y.
The sort of parent who is more likely to raise a problem child should NOT be allowed to do this to such a child. Esp. when you consider the cost of this program ($40,000/year). These are the much wealthier parents, ones who (more likely than otherwise) don't spend enough/any time with their kids, ones who would be less aghast at sending their kids away to be "fixed", and ones who can afford such a thing.
~14:30
"14:30" dancing(removeme)lavois...@hotmail.com
These kids should have parents to answer to. Unfourtunately, many of them don't. This doesn't mean that they should be shipped off to some "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"-esque hell, where power-plays are the order of the day and psychological abuse is the cure for everything.
~14:30
Garglemonster garglemons...@my-deja.com
14:30> How do you expect the kids to fight back? This place falls 14:30> under Jamacian legal jurisdiction. You could, possibly, sue 14:30> your parents.
in fact, that's what i'd expect.
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garglemons...@my-deja.com World War III? No thanks!
chgosat ...@aol.comorange (so what)
Well, that makes it sound like a pricey babysitting drop-off service. I thought this was for kids who were borderline Jerry Springer material. It doesn't seem like parents would be able to just drop off the kid just because, "He doesn't like my new boyfriend's cat's sequined shoes". I would think there would be something to show that the kid really needed help: school records, evidence of trouble with the law. I think poor people call it, "Reform School".
satrap I can't smile without you, he said to his teeth
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