Questions for Aspies
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"Jean B." jb...@rcn.com
Last night, as I was getting ready for bed, I had the following questions running through my mind. I am still trying to figure out what to DO with Leah's diagnosis--what it means for her. (I gather this varies from person to person.) What do you wish your parents had done differently?
What did your parents do that worked well?
What do you think schools should do?
What shouldn't schools do?
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Jean B.
rapum lucidum theaddressinever...@hotmail.com
I think having clubs to go to at secondary school helped, as it meant that I had something to do that would enable me to engage better with other people; I found just hanging round all lunchtime didn't work well. But I found it hard to find clubs that interested me, and I think having too many may overload - I would have wanted at least some lunchtimes more free just to switch off for a bit. I think if I'd had clubs at primary school it would have kept me away from bullying and would have given me a positive reason to be with other people.
Probably not a good idea to be visibly singling out ACs - makes them vulnerable.
Interestingly, I sometimes read reports on various aspects of teaching and being taught, saying how something's been discovered, and thinking they were really obvious! For example, I recently heard something about how it was discovered that maybe when children aren't looking at the teacher, and are staring vacantly at the door or whatever, could still be thinking when doing that, and that they aren't just not listening! What, really? Have they really only just worked that out?
So yes... they should be careful not to ***ume someone's not listening/thinking just because they don't look like they are.
Particularly important for ACs.
I often find it hard when someone tries to greet me or speak to me or whatever because I don't tune in to the fact that they're making contact with me. Sometimes I found it hard when a teacher greeted me or picked on me to answer a question. So if a teacher is aware of AS, it might help if they're careful about this (but as with anything without being too over the top about it). For example, when addressing, they could say the name clearly, rather than just looking or whatever. That could apply in any situation, not just in school. I found even pointing unclear sometimes. Names are best.
Sometimes I looked asleep in lessons when I wasn't. Once I closed my eyes when everyone was talking, waiting for the teacher to begin. What I didn't realise was that everyone was waiting for me to open my eyes!
Closed eyes or resting head on desk can be listening... just reducing load.
Some sort of help with inertia/EF would have been useful, but I don't know what could have been done.
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The Luminous Turnip [professionally self-dx'd AS] Spectrum code: AS d- s:- a-- c++>+++ p+>+++ t+(+++) f-(--) S+ p@ e+>+++ h++ r-->+-+-+- n*(+) i+++++ P- m(+) M@ (well depends what day it is really)
"Joel Smith" j...@autistics.us
For me, I wish I wasn't sent to public school. I also wish I wasn't taught that my interests were bad.
I also wish that my mother was not quite so pushy when it came to me achieving her goals for my life.
I wish I wasn't expected to date and such by my parents.
Bribery <grin>. My last year of school, they said, "I'll write you a note anytime you don't want to go to school, if you get straight A's..." They did have high expectations, that were generally realistic. Once in a while my mom got too pushy though.
They need to have very strict anti-bullying policies that are actually enforced. Teachers definately should not engage in teasing or bullying of the autistic kid.
They should recognize that the autistic kid is unique, and probably needs some things done differently then they've done for any other kid (autistic or otherwise) in the past.
They need to include the autistic kids' perseverations in lessons.
They should focus less on "well roundedness" and more on things that the autistic is interested in.
They should do whatever they can to help a mentor relationship develop with an adult. If the kid finds someone other then the person expected to be the mentor (for instance a teacher who doesn't officially teach the child), the school should bend and find a way to make it work if at all possible. This mentor relationship will be based on the kid's special interest(s), should be an adult who *really does* share the interest (the kid will spot the wannabes!), and should be someone who likes the kid. This kind of thing can't be created in a laboratory jar, though. But some environments make it much more likely to occur. It will increase the kid's self esteem, job skills, social skills, etc, to have an adult role model that he looks up to.
Listen to the kid and the parents.
When the kid is old enough (this will vary), they should be involved in their own IEP meetings.
Shouldn't ***ume that apparent behavior problems are examples of willful misobedience, but recognize that autism affects all sorts of things and also that kids are very good at finding ways to provoke the autistic kid without being noticed doing so.
They should not spend too much time on weaknesses. No one likes to spend all day doing things that they aren't good at, and autistics typically won't get jobs when they are adults which require skill at the things they were weak at as a child. They'll get jobs doing things that they are good at, so these skills are very important to not neglect. If an autistic kid has bad handwriting but good math skills for instance, it is probably more important to teach advanced math then remedial handwriting. Focus should be on the long term, not 'age appropriate' skills. Handwriting doesn't keep people from being employed in modern society. There aren't many jobs for scribes these days!
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Joel
"proma1" pro...@ntlworld.com
on the handwirting thing every job i have had i have been told off for regarding handwriting stock checks when i was a chef,or in factories writing down what stock serial numbers/part numbers have gone to a particular destination.
and in all other jobs i have done,handwriting has featured.
regards,Paul
"Jean B." jb...@rcn.com
I'm going to REALLY try not to respond to every post in this thread/every point that is made, although I may try to make some posts that consolidate some responses. This first (and amazingly quick) reply did, however, make me think of some more things....
If I could go back to day one of kindergarten, I may very well have done things differently. Leah went into school happy (in her own little world) and eager to learn. Indeed, she was way ahead of her peers. I could have homeschooled her easily, following her interests and going at her speed. BUT, foolish me, I thought *I* am so isolated myself that she needed the social interaction at school. Well, as her dad says, she is nowhere socially (actually she is SLIGHTLY above NOWHERE), and, in fact, most of her interaction has been quite negative with kids treating her badly.... That, if course, has been bad for her self esteem....
It would be very hard for me to home school her now, and I wonder whether there is a private school that a) would accept her [will it be EASIER with the diagnosis, since many schools make a big thing of not discriminating?], and b) she would be at least somewhat happier at. Her normal psychologist thinks she will be miserable in high school, and he has suggested a school which has a very strong art program and is also excellent in academic subjects. BUT everyone else, including my psychiatrist friend who has an Aspie son and who specializes in this, thinks this is a bad idea and that things will be better in high school. I would like to at least go look at this school, maybe apply, so we (possibly) have that to fall back on.
I also wish I wasn't taught What interests did you have? Leah is very much into anime and manga and wants to be a manga artist. She has also written (and co-written online) some stories. Now, as a mother of a bright child, I have to say that this is not what I envisioned for her, but then it is not MY life! And I have gotten so I can encourage her....
Yes, related to the above. It is NOT my life....
Okay. Good point. Leah is not at all interested in such, and she is almost 14. On one hand, I am glad, and I think it is good not to be dating at ca 14. But on the other, I wonder whether that will change? Something to keep out of, I guess.
Ah yes, I have resorted to bribery myself. I have mixed feelings about that, but it frequently the only thing that works for her.
Well, I expect Leah to get good grades--she mostly gets As, maybe a few Bs. BUT what can be done about the (increasing) demands for oral participation, that account for some percentage of the grade? I am hoping I can do something about that in her IEP. Why should kids who think nothing of blithering get points for just opening their mouths (even when they are wrong), while Leah, who either can't talk or who is just about killed by it or who is so discombobulated by it that she sounds like an idiot (which has social ramifications)? This is making me increasingly furious.
Yes, yes, yes. And with girls the bullying tends to be sneaky and ongoing. As far as teachers go, I am hoping a known diagnosis will get them off her back. One of her teachers last year was indicating he didn't know if she understood the material because she could not speak--although she was getting very good grades on her tests and on the other written work. He made a gesture like she was stupid.... Grrr. I would hope that folks who have been teachers for a long time would have encountered this and would have strategies, but from what I have seen, these hopes would generally be unfounded. That has astonished me.
Those would have been definite advantages of home schooling.
Leah does have a nice friendship with her 6th-grade math teacher.
I don't know what will happen to that when she goes to another school after this year.
This is part of the reason I am asking. We will be having an IEP meeting soon. Leah may or may not attend. I want her to attend.
I want things done that will benefit her--not make things worse for her. I want to be VERY careful about this.
I actually held onto the form I was supposed to get back to the school for a month, in part because I am very afraid of having something implemented that will make Leah's life even MORE difficult. Also, um, the thought of a home visit is extremely horrible. BUT I was afraid if I said that, they would think we were hiding something awful....
Definitely.
That makes sense.
Focus should be on the Yes, the emphasis on handwriting has bothered me. The long run is more important. I want Leah to be as functional as possible. I have to figure out how to achieve that without killing her.
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Jean B.
sggaB ama...@autistics.org
Then again, when I was a kid writing was one of my weakest subjects. (Not that I think this means schools should focus on people's weak points all the time. Just a comment.)
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This post may be more literal, unemotional, or impersonal than it looks. This FAQ has details: http://www.mugsy.org/asa_faq/
"rossignol" nachti...@mail2hell.com
"Jean B." wrote: <snip> Don??t worry... nearly all parents make this mistake...
Well, as her dad says, she is nowhere socially (actually Unfortunately this is almost always the case with autistics and any kid who is a little.. how should I say... different. I think the quality of social interaction is important, instead of quantity...
<snip: Which school to choose for Aspie kid?> I don??t know about others, but I would have loved to have been tutored. A utopic alternative would have been a school with small, really small cl***es and teachers who are not so fixated on getting the kid to behave or learn a certain way*, but who are more interested in results.
* Like oral exams and the like.
Oh yes. Consider it a major plus in fact. All I can say.
<snip> That??s another thing. Why this fixation of schools with oral exams and oral participation? They are just NOT necessary. Darn it, just as they respect the alternative ways people communicate because of physical reasons, they should also respect the ways an autistic can communicate.
This just makes me furious too.
<snip> Handwriting. <snort> The best thing I??ve ever learned was to 10-finger-blind-type.
S.
"rossignol" nachti...@mail2hell.com
Used less physical and mental violence. Stopped forcing me to conform.
I??ve got to think about that first...
Be more aware of bullying and find more effective ways to stop it. Throw out the abusive, sadistic teachers - there are more of those than people think.
Not get so fixated on the one true way of learning things. As long as a student learns what he needs to know, they shouldn??t care how he arrived there, only that he arrived.
They need to crop the curriculum a bit. While it is important to have good grasp on language, basic math, some geography and history, some physics and chemistry, not *all* will need algebra later in life. (And those who do can always learn that stuff in the uni.) Instead, they should focus more on life-related skills and every-day-survival skills, because not all are learing this at home.
S.
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"The doors of hell are open now. We are going to link up, hold hands, and walk out of hell together." - Mellen-Thomas Benedict
sggaB ama...@autistics.org
They let me have a fair amount of space, they did not have low expectations of me, they let me do a lot of things that were harmless but unusual, they *persuaded* me to stay home on days when things were awful at school, they were supportive when I dropped out of school, and my dad showed me what it was like to be an adult like me.
Cater to a broader range of students, quit doing nonsensical things like insisting on people "must be with your own age", *seriously* not tolerate bullying, actually believe in students, etc. Although I don't believe in standardized school systems on principle.
***ume that one style of learning fits all students, throw all non-standard students into different schools as if they don't belong in the usual definition of student, participate in bullying, use IQ tests as if they actually mean anything, automatically "track" students by social cl*** (I would've probably been better off learning a trade; some kids in schools to learn trades would've been better off where I was; etc), act as if bullying is the fault of the person being bullied, ***ess truthfulness on cuteness or social skills, play favorites with children.
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sggaB ama...@autistics.org
Likewise. Touch-typing allowed me to eventually learn communication. (Before that, handwriting was too painful, speech was too potentially mangled, and typewriters were too much like a big visual scramble of keys.)
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"Rob M" j.munne...@comcast.net
That's a key point that is emphasized by our neurologist for John (7 year old HFA/PDD-NOS). Handwriting is difficult for John and it cannot be allowed to stand in the way of his efforts to communicate or he'll get frustrated. His teacher is aware of this issue and it is incorporated in his IEP. The MD advocated use of a particular software program (can't recall the name right now) to begin teaching keyboarding skills now - and to work for use of a keyboard in the cl***room as an accomodation down the line.
Rob
"The autist formerly known as" N...@larry-arnold.com
At least they were not always moving, I liked there choice of house and location Treat everyone as an individual, abandon the concept of a fixed curriculum try to force uniformity and expect the impossible
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??T L'autisme c'est moi "Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not believe in the laws of mathematics"
Terry Jones terryjo...@beeb.net
Though if it's poor due to motor control problems, etc., then "raw practice" isn't necessarily going to help much, since it's not addressing the real problem.
Practice is if course needed in the acquisition of skills, but too often this can end up as a *substitute* for appropriate teaching, rather than a reinforcement of it.
[It's one thing which really frustrates me about "public services" in general - That despite having trade unions, etc., when given unrealistic objectives and / or inadequate resources, too often (in my own experience & anecdotally) they will give their "users" the run-around rather than even formally admit this, much less stand up to those who put them it this situation. - So it's those in the weakest position, individual parents, pupils, patients, service users in general, who pay the real price for their maintaining this pretence.] Terry
sggaB ama...@autistics.org
Yes. I don't think focusing more on writing would have helped me any.
(It wasn't just handwriting though. It was the whole mess of language and coming up with things to write about and so forth *combined* with the mess of getting it out my fingers. I had the same problem or worse with being expected to give oral presentations, and with a lot of "projects". Especially of course once I got to my second elementary school in which I was expected to have monetary resources for those "projects" that I didn't.)
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rapum lucidum theaddressinever...@hotmail.com
Teachers were always commenting on my writing. When I was about 13 I had some work back with a comment including 'you must - at all costs -
ensure that <something about writing>'. At all costs? At the cost of producing decent work? A few years later a teacher was talking to me about my writing, and I actually tried harder for this teacher, because they seemed to acknowledge how hard it was to write clearly.
I can write neatly sometimes. In particular, if filling in a form, I can write in very neat block capitals. When I completed my UCAS (university entrance) form people commented on how neat the writing was, and were surprised that I had written it!
If I'm writing something for someone else to read, I'll try to write clearly, but I find it very tiring. Maybe I don't hold the pen properly. I don't remember ever being shown how to hold one...
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The Luminous Turnip [professionally self-dx'd AS] Spectrum code: AS d- s:- a-- c++>+++ p+>+++ t+(+++) f-(--) S+ p@ e+>+++ h++ r-->+-+-+- n*(+) i+++++ P- m(+) M@ (well depends what day it is really)
"Geoff" foooooo...@hotmail.com
i'v read the other replys and generaly agree really stuff my parents should have done different, ermmm they did ok really i went to a special school early on, and was in mainstream for high school they tryed various stuff at high school for me, lunchtime was something of a nightmare, and PE too (we had open type chaning rooms and showers, never once did i use them though, once i set my mind on not doing something, it generaly stays that way i got bullyed somewhat mainly during lunchtime, so they organised for me to stay in the library, this helped in one way, but not in another, the other kids would ask why am i allowed to stay in and such another thing they tryed was putting me in the front of the lunch queue, but the problem was that it was a shop sort of thing, you stood in a line, when you got there you asked what you wanted, and then paid, i managed to get some food, i mainly bought something which i knew was going to be there every day, chips ! ok not exactly a well balacned meal, but i got away with 2 things, 1 i knew i needed *something* to eat or i wouldn't do very well for rest of the day, 2 the other kids wouldn't single me out if i didn't buy get any food packed lunch wasn't exactly the done thing, anyway, as they put me in the front of the line, all it did was heap the pressure up ok so pos fix's to these sorts of problems: 1 educate the teachers, no i don't mean send them to medical school, talk to them yourself, explain the basics someone suggested clubs during lunch, yes, generaly, just something to do during lunch, so your child isn't left hanging about also don't make the mistake of putting a child alone to do something, i mean i was put in the library from lunch, ya it got me away from the bullys and such, but i was bored out my skull, i liked being in a group and doing something (don't get me started on adult relationships, or lack of) :) even today i still do packed lunch for work, for exactly the above reasons (some things i'v beaten, my list is long though)
l ...@gemtnt.com (L. Rubin)
Let me explore my own interests.
Encourage home schooling. > Force auties to socialize.
rapum lucidum theaddressinever...@hotmail.com
I don't think I ever understood the rules of any of the games we played. Even if the teacher explained, I couldn't follow what they said. And then when I did the wrong thing, people yelled incomprehensible things at me.
That reminds me of something else: ensure that the teachers aren't learning about some autism stereotype, with all that 'no ToM', 'no imagination' etc; they need to understand that the child is unique, and base their understanding of the label on the person, not their undertsanding of the person on the label. They need to be open to seeing who the child is, not just thinking they know it all. My teachers never knew, so I don't know what teachers tend to be like in this area, but I know some people who do seem to have picked up some annoying stereotypes.
I think it was to a large extent the likes of clubs at school that enabled me to like being with and care about other people.
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The Luminous Turnip [professionally self-dx'd AS] Spectrum code: AS d- s:- a-- c++>+++ p+>+++ t+(+++) f-(--) S+ p@ e+>+++ h++ r-->+-+-+- n*(+) i+++++ P- m(+) M@ (well depends what day it is really)
"Geoff" foooooo...@hotmail.com
good point about the stereotype thing i can relate to the others playing some game and not taking it up right away, you are under pressure to already know the game , and learning on the spot = ain't gonna happen I remember we played baseball once in PE, same deal really (i live in the UK), i'd already played it some years beforeat primary school which helped there wasn't any clubs or anything really to to at lunchtime, basicly they threw all the kids outside and lets them do their own thing at did get my education at high school more or less, it all went to pot at the end of it though, not exactly a high point in my life :)
rapum lucidum theaddressinever...@hotmail.com
Similar to softball, the only game that I managed to work out how to play (ish)... most people did cricket in the summer term for the first few years, but the lowest group (aka flid div) was taught softball instead. I think it took a couple of years for me to gain some clue as to what was going on, rather than just thwacking and running and hoping I was doing the right thing. I have many memories of running to the next base, going half way, everyone else taking the lead an drunning also, only to realise that someone's hit didn't count or something and having to run back. In older years we could choose our sports so I chose softball in the summer; in the winter there was absolutely nothing I could play so I went with hockey, which beats things like rugby, but never quite got it apart from hitting the ball around, aiming for my team members etc.
I sometimes joined in when people played sport for fun, but still it wasn't "for fun" enough for me to be able to get away with not really understanding the rules or knowing what to do with the ball, and I've long since given up on even informal games.
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The Luminous Turnip [professionally self-dx'd AS] Spectrum code: AS d- s:- a-- c++>+++ p+>+++ t+(+++) f-(--) S+ p@ e+>+++ h++ r-->+-+-+- n*(+) i+++++ P- m(+) M@ (well depends what day it is really)
Nightingale s...@music.ca
A lot will depend on the particular school.
I was miserable in a public high school. More or less survived grade 9 and 10, p***ed 3 out of 8 subjects in grade 11, and dropped out at 17. I later went back for a year, p***ed some of my remaining subjects & did the rest by studying on my own and going to the school board to write exams. I actually could have not bothered applied to college as a mature student, but I wanted to finish high school.
One of my friends has an autistic son who was not managing in a public, but did very well in a small private school & is going on to university.
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The better the voyce is, the meeter it is to honour and serve God there-with: and the voyce of man is chiefely to be imployed to that ende.
Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum.
-William Byrd
Nightingale s...@music.ca
It never ends. In my university cl***es, they took attendance and awarded part of the mark for cl*** participation.
I didn't want to take it, but typing has ended up being one of the most useful skills I learned in high school. (Well, some parts of that cl*** anyway - I glad not to deal with manual typewriters & carbon paper anymore.)
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The better the voyce is, the meeter it is to honour and serve God there-with: and the voyce of man is chiefely to be imployed to that ende.
Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum.
-William Byrd
"rossignol" nachti...@mail2hell.com
Yes, I would. :) While it??s kind of late for me, ;) I think it??s exactly the right time to begin to think about my son??s future school. The doctors have already recommended a school that is exactly like you described and we??ll try it out, and if it works out well, that??s where he??ll stay. (I want to spare him the horror that I went through for a while, of changing a school every year because I was getting bullied in every one.) S.
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