case reminiscent of the Salem Witch trials
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"Shadowcat" shadow_...@mindspring.com
Has everyone seen or heard about this?
ACLU of Oklahoma Files Federal Lawsuit on Behalf of Student Accused of "Hexing" a Teacher http://www.aclu.org/news/2000/n102600.html Shadowcat
Sire Squire Amethyst amethystro...@home.com
I went to the site and read the complaint. Her parents, for her, will sue the principal of the school, the school counselor, the ***istant principle, another counselor employed by the school district, and 5 of the school board members.
It's hard to believe that this all started because the girl wanted to be an author like Stephen King and then a year later started reading books on Wicca. What they did to her (suspension, ridicule, forbidding her to wear a pent and trying to force Christianity on her, etc.) is unacceptable.
The girl is only in High School and already she has to defend herself in court. It's unfair.
"JJ RavenBear" jjravenb...@hotmail.com
That just goes to show how things have really gotten out of hand when it comes to the public schools dealing with our children on many issues.
Things have gone from over-tolerant to intolerant.
JJ ...
Al A...@greycircle.demon.co.uk
Goes to show just how frightened those disgusting savages are though doesn't it.
Al Nolite Cum Magis Fossere
ba ...@gate.net (Baird Stafford)
It also explains, I think, just why we Wiccans in the US take what may seem to nationals of other countries to be such an excessive interest in our own national electoral process. Those who would persecute us in this manner already have an extensive power base that many of us feel *must* be opposed politically as well as religiously in order to ensure our continued safety as an "alternative" religion.
Wiccans being Wiccans, however, the question of what method to use in expressing this opposition is still open to argument....
Blessed be, Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism, Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated Like science fiction and fantasy fiction? Read my reviews at <http://www.bairdstafford.com>
Sire Squire Amethyst amethystro...@home.com
I guess the problem is trying to find a way to overcome such opposition without becoming like the opossers ourselves. You know, trying not to trample on other people's rights to express THEIR opinions and beliefs...even if we don't agree. There seems to be a very fine line between expressing your feelings and actually doing things that are harmful to another group.
Blessings!
Amethyst http://www.enchanteddoorway.com Take our Pagan Poll!
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"GreenKnight" rha...@mediaone.net
Let's wait just a cotton picking minute here. I read the complaint as well.
The complaint is playing with words quite well to bring out the stars and stripes as in,"She had drawn upon her hand a star, not unlike the star on the flag of the United States of America, with a circle drawn around it." The complaint goes on to say that she was then unfairly accused of displaying a wiccan symbol.
Um, of course it was a wiccan symbol. The right or wrong of it not withstanding. Coloring it as not unlike the stars on the flag is a bit much, no?
Furthermore, one of the defendants accused her of using magick to make another ill. Well, we all know this is possible. Though, how suspending her would prevent that is anyone's guess. <smirk> Just playing devil's advocate here. What if she did truely cast a spell and make her teacher ill enough to be hospitalized. What should the school have done?
g ...@arwm.net (Gale)
On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 00:27:44 CST, "GreenKnight" (snip) Required reading: as many accounts of witch trials as you can find. Begin with Cotton Mather's "Wonders of the Invisible World." Continue reading until you have discovered the dangers of accepting accusations not based on physical evidence.
"She cast a spell to make him sick." "My neighbor has the evil eye." "I killed him and robbed him because he was a sorcorer." Is it dawning on you just *how* outrageous it is for any governmental agency to act on such a claim? If not, begin reading and *do not* stop.
If you can find empirical proof, such as would be accepted in scientific circles, for that claim, you will have turned the whole western world on its ear. Blessed Be, Gale http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html (original Tarot, poetry, fiction) g...@arwm.net modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated
"GreenKnight" rha...@mediaone.net
So what? We all claim magick works until one of us is accused of using it for harm? MMM, then we demand scientific proof? MMM...can't have it both ways.
I agree this could be nothing more than a witch hunt and likely is. I'm not accepting accusations w/o physical evidence. I'm just asking questions. Lets ***ume they found her book of shadows (which they didn't) in which she outlines the spell she used and the intent. What do you feel the school should have done?
Just because we have been and will be persecuted for no reason doesn't mean that there are none of us (especially the untrained young) willing to cause harm.
Co ...@drunkenbard.com
If I believed it worked the first time, I think I'd be a little more wary of pissing her off.
--
Conal -- http://conal.homepage.com or http://i.am/a.bard In the end, we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.
-George Orwell
"Matt Dragonfly Drury" dragon...@spamcop.net
Yes; I posted here about it on the 27th.
naha ...@my-deja.com
some sort of sanction would be appropriate, but I doubt that's the case. In any event, some counceling by Wiccan or other pagan clergy, i.e. a Witch, would be appropriate, I think, just to make sure she understands what's happening here.
Blessed Be, Nahaklo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
"MysticGoat" mysticg...@BARF.iname.com
The girl in question should be held to the same standard as a Christian, Muslim, or Jew who was caught praying for a teacher's illness.
No more, no less.
BB,
--mg
g ...@arwm.net (Gale)
On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:05:32 CST, "GreenKnight" Magic doesn't work *that way*. If it did, the whatever thousands of fundamentalists trying to kill William Brennen, Thurgood Marshall, etc. through prayer would have succeeded.
Aside from which, you are, as I suggested, proclaiming the propriety of *all* of history's various witch-hunts (and every other legally-sanctioned violation of due process) by your acceptance of blame without evidence.
I agree with one of your earlier statements: you are (likely without thinking) acting as a "devil's advocate" --- an advocate of every ugly form of superstition and persecution that has been seen since the human race developed the capacity to p*** judgment, for all who care to claim another is "evil" or is "committing evil" can muster an array of non-empirical evidence similar to that presented in this case.
Nothing. Not unless you advocate the "necklacing" and burning of witches as has taken place rural regions in South Africa.
You have *no concept* of the danger of what you are advocating.
Please, familiarize yourself with a few of history's "witch hunts" (including those not involving real witches). Again, I suspect you have no idea of what you are saying; you certainly appear unaware of the danger such an attitude toward "proof" as yours carries for *all* members of society (including those who have never even heard of witchcraft).
Blessed Be, Gale http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html (original Tarot, poetry, fiction) g...@arwm.net modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated
ba ...@gate.net (Baird Stafford)
Why worry about something that didn't happen? "Might have been" is one of the most useless phrases in *any* language, in my opinion.
None the less, the school system being a legal entity and therefore bound by the strictures of law (in the US, public schools are governed by local school boards and do not have independent governing bodies) should not have gotten involved in the matter on *either* side - UNLESS something happened that would constitute evidence in a courtroom. To the best of ability to discover through the reportage, nothing did.
It is perhaps another sophistry, but in my opinion "willing" to cause harm and "*able*" to cause harm are very different critters. Until the fact that this girl's Magic actually did cause illness I shall continue to regard her as being one of a persecuted minority.
Blessed be, Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism, Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated Like science fiction and fantasy fiction? Read my reviews at <http://www.bairdstafford.com>
Selah se...@wpi.edu
Ok, I'll take the bait. :-) True, personally, I'd not sure I want to.
I'm not sure what the school CAN do. Occult phenomenia is quite out of their range of knowhow I'm sure. I would ALMOST treat it as I would guns in school. Ethics of magickal use need to start at home and while the kids are young. If there WAS a child who was doing such, there would need to be some sort of conflict resolution either by removing the child from the teacher's cl*** or by asking the child what is the problem. In this particular case, The child learned the Craft from books.
A. she's very new at this B. it doesn't like she have the proper spiritual/emotional frame of mind to do this kind of damage C. I doubt she even knows a spell or method of this caliber to incapasatate someone.
even if she did, we should just let Karma hold its course. Cause she'll get paid back in spades.
Selah
Jamie Fessenden and Brian Clace jamieandbrian2...@earthlink.net
Well, I would probably suggest something similar, IF it were proven that she did in fact put a spell on the teacher. There are two problems with that idea, of course: 1) There's probably no way of proving or disproving that she cast the spell; 2) The school, in this case, doesn't have a Wiccan counselor. (At least, I ***ume it doesn't, considering the circumstances.) Ideally, it would be a good thing to have Wiccan counselors of some sort available in communities (and known to the school system and the children's parents), just as there are councelors for the various Christian, Jewish (and sometimes other) faiths in most communities. The problem, of course, is that a school can't simply send a child to religious counseling without involving the parents. This is generally a good thing, but not necessarily, in cases in which the child has chosen to follow a different religious path. Few parents are willing to allow their children to be counseled by someone who's faith differs from their own. How many Christian parents would consent to their child being counseled by a Rabbi? How many Jewish parents would consent to their child being counseled by a Catholic priest?
For that matter, how many Wiccan parents would consent to either of the above?
The girl involved in this lawsuit may or may not have done the things the school system claims -- I've certainly known my share of teenagers who were fascinated with the darker side of magick, especially if they felt mistreated by the other kids and the school system -- but really, the school system has little choice but to ignore it, unless she does something clearly against the rules, such as threatening someone (it doesn't really matter if she threatens with a curse -- a threat is a threat), or bringing harmful objects into school.
Thedric
"GreenKnight" rha...@mediaone.net
Gale please relax.
A) I never accepted one side or the other.
B) I'm well aware of history.
C) I'm not advocating any point D) I'm usually utterly neutral on news stories of any kind. Take the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill fiasco. My position is that one of them is lieing but I have no idea who.
fundamentalists trying to >kill William Brennen, Thurgood Marshall, etc.
Are you kidding? Magick can be used for harm. I've seen it done and gone in to clean up the mess as best I could. As for prayer, most Xians don't have the will to follow their own book much less the will necessary for magick.
witch-hunts (and every other >legally-sanctioned violation of due process) Where did you read I did that? I think you are reading in your fears into my statements. Personally, if someone cast a spell to harm me or mine, I'd turn the energy back upon them. The school can't do that. I just asked that IF IF IF IF the accusations were true. WHat should be done?
Sorry but I never accepted blame. I'm asking a lot of what ifs. You or I can have no idea what did or did not happen. I wasn't there and I doubt you were either. Really, I'm just asking questions.
thinking) acting as a "devil's >advocate" --- an advocate of every ugly form of >superstition and persecution that has been I'm not advocating anything. How harshly you judge me. At what point did I say anything should be done? Um, never. I asked if she did a spell to cause harm to her teacher what should be done? After all, if she took a gun to school and shot him, Wiccan or not, we'd all know what should be done. and before you go off again. I'm not saying she did cast the spell. Just asking what ifs?
as has taken >place rural regions in South Africa Finally and answer to my question! I don't think I'd go that far but someone on this or another group suggested counseling by a Wiccan priest/priestess.
Not really a bad idea, though I'm not sure the school could get away with it.
Personally, IF IT WERE PROVEN SHE CAST A SPELL WITH INTENT TO HARM THE TEACHER, regardless of proving it was the spell that brought about the harm.
I'd advocate the girl would have to take care of him in the hospital and watch his suffering and learn the results of her actions. Unfortunately, the school can't do that either but her parents could.
You have *no concept* of the danger of what you are advocating.
You sell me so short Gale. But to allow one to practice magick to harm another for fear of feuling the burnings once again is a bit dangerous as well. Not every Wiccan follows the rede, we are only human. However, the 'normal' community can't do much to stop a occultist from doing 'harm'. I'm not advocating we form committees to stamp out 'harmful magick' whatever that is. I'm bringing up points to think about. Ideas are never harmful in and of themselves.
Again, I suspect you have no idea of what you are saying; you certainly appear unaware of the danger such an attitude toward "proof" as yours carries for *all* members of society (including those who have never even heard of witchcraft).
I have offered little in the concept of proof. Only a lot of what ifs. But if you want proof. ***ume that there was a book of shadows, she told three people that she did it, she partnered with a friend that is now singing like a canary. ***ume all the proof you'd need to sit in a jury and convict of ***ualt with a deadly weapon had a knife been used. ***ume again that you, even as a witch, believed the witnesses and she did that thing and it wasn't a witch hunt in the historical sense of the word. You SEEM to be saying that the 'normal' community should have ABSOLUTELY NO RECOURSE because of past and potential future attrocities. If that is what you are saying, I find that to be fundamentally un-American and shirks the duty toward human rights for ALL, not just us.
Unfortunately, I see no way to give any 'innocent' any recourse without resulting in the culmination of your fears. But again, these are just thoughts. I wanted to know what the Wiccan community thought IF one of theirs went bad.
FOr the record, I'm not accusing the girl of anything, I don't know. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the school folks seriously over reacted and made jerks out of themselves but it is just a guess. Also, for the record the caps were for emphasis not for yelling.
Blessed Be.
"GreenKnight" rha...@mediaone.net
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and understanding that I'm just asking questions.
"GreenKnight" rha...@mediaone.net
I can't argue against anything you said. However, you brought up this...
get paid back in spades Should we hold the same logic to people that use physical weapons to do harm? Karma will have an effect on them no doubt as well?
(No Gale, please don't go there...) :)
g ...@futuresouth.com
For the third and final time, *you have no idea what you are saying*.
To state that a claim such as was made against the girl is in any sense a reasonable grounds for investigation is to accept the "justice" of historical and contemporary persecutions. Why? Because there is no method by which such a case could be pursued that does not rely on either totally non-empirical evidence ("he gave me the evil eye") or on mysterious causal mechanisms not subject to empirical validation (magic works by correspondence not by physical contact).
Any such prosecution, by its very nature, is a "witchhunt" --- in the broader sense of the definition rather than the sense applying to witches.
It may sound strange to say that to be willing *to allow* the one side to makes its case is *to accept* the legitimacy of persecution, but such are the circumstances. Prosecution without narrowly defined "due cause" is persecution, whatever the religious or cultural values of the victim.
And that is an intrinsic and sacrosanct principle of our legal system.
If that principle is cast aside, no one is safe.
BB, Gale Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Francis Cameron fran...@topdeck.demon.co.uk
What I find fascinating about this is that there are those in authority in the school who apparently believe magical spells are effective. I wonder what religious background they come from ..
--
francis freespirit Oxford, England
Jamie Fessenden and Brian Clace jamieandbrian2...@earthlink.net
On some fundamental level, I think, the majority of people in our culture (if not the world) do believe in magick and the supernatural in general, even when professing not to, because they don't want to look foolish to their peers. This is the bane of skeptics, who are driven absolutely CRAZY by the popularity of horoscopes, psychics and 'true' TV shows about ghosts and UFOs.
Thedric
Jamie Fessenden and Brian Clace jamieandbrian2...@earthlink.net
GreenKnight was being perfectly reasonable. As I've been repeatedly stating myself, not ALL accusations of malicious witchcraft are necessarily false: for a variety of reasons, some people WANT others to fear them for their 'powers.' Typically, these people are those who feel powerless in the face of society, such as teenagers, women, or people who have been outcast for whatever reasons. This is NOT to say that witch-hunts were/are ever justified! Certainly, the majority of those accused of malicious witchcraft were the victims of fearful or even sadistic neighbors, often with ulterior motives, such as land acquisition or just getting rid of someone they didn't like. BUT it is not "joining the witch-hunt" to wonder if the girl is as sweet and innocent as the article is portraying. I'm on her side, but I suspect she probably DID do something to frighten the teacher. In any event, I'm afraid I can't accept your argument that we validate the entire history of witch-hunts, simply by wondering what the other side of the story is.
Thedric
ba ...@gate.net (Baird Stafford)
This one may well be, however, since by at least one other news account the url for which was published here, the girl is RC rather than Wican.
<snip> Blessed be, Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism, Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated Like science fiction and fantasy fiction? Read my reviews at <http://www.bairdstafford.com>
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