BSA Stupidity!
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Carol Lee Smith hu...@csd.uwm.edu
BSA strikes again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: cwg (c...@nomailplease.com) Subject: Re: BSA Stupidity!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting.issues, milw.general, wi.general, talk.politics, uwm.general Date: 2002-06-11 08:26:25 PST "Mark" <whopk...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> wrote << ... The problem with BSA is not that they are private. The problem is they are private but don't act like it, as the original poster said. They waltz around from city to school to united way to church asking for special treatment, discounted rates, and funding, only to turn around and enact discriminatory practices which are legal but often explicitely prohibited by the groups they seek favors from. That is the inherent dishonesty of BSA's behavior, not the fact that they are private. BSA has a right to reject gays. But the honest thing for BSA to do would be to severe their relationships with all funding and supporting groups that explicitely prohibit BSA's behavior, rather than to continually request funding and other favors from them.>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Press Release For Immediate Release and Distribution October 26, 2002 Contact: Scott Cozza, Pres.
Scouting for All 707-778-0564 cozzahi...@aol.com Boy Scouts of America Kick Out 19 Year Old Eagle Scout For Being Atheist Darrell Lambert, Eagle Scout was kicked out of the BSA by the Chief Seattle Council of Seattle, Washington. On October 12 at a Scout Master training Glen Schmidt, Dist. Comm. Chair was quoted as saying, "I ask scouts during the training if they believe in god and if they don't I boot them out. In order for scouts to become good citizens they must believe in god." Darrell responded to the comment by saying, " I am an atheist and no one in this room can rightfully say that I'm not a good citizen. Mr. Schmidt you are discriminating against the 6% of Americans that don't believe. I got my Eagle award with my board knowing that I didn't believe in god. They don't discriminate." Glen Schmidt, Dist. Comm. Chair then went on to say, "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." Darrell's mother is a scout leader and was told by another scout leader, Dave Jones, "if you have any other boys in scouts that don't believe in god they need to be kicked out of scouts." In a phone conversation, Brad Farmer, Council Executive told Darrell that the BSA couldn't take his Eagle Award away because he already received it. He also told Darrell that because he didn't believe in god he was not welcomed in scouts. In a conversation with Toby Estes, District Executive the following day, Mr. Estes is quoted as saying, "Darrell, scouting will be less without you, but it was the right thing to kick you out." He also said that "It is not discrimination it's policy. Scouts have been kicking atheists out for years and we are a private organization. Darrell it was also a mistake you received your Eagle Award." About Darrell Lambert, Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert joined the Boy Scouts of America as a first year Webelos.
He received his arrow of light and colors and went straight into troop 1531.
There he participated as an ***istant patrol leader from the day he started with the troop. Since then he had been a patrol leader, quartermaster, librarian, ***istant senior patrol leader, den chief, JASM, senior patrol Leader twice, and patrol leader 2 other times. Darrell received his Eagle award in April of 2001.
He joined explorer search and rescue in march of 1999 and earned a team leader certification a year and a half later. At the time Darrell was kicked out for being an atheist he was a field leader in training. He had been actively involved in leadership competitions through the FFA for his sophomore and junior years in high school. He also raised pigs to show at fairs. He was an agriculture student his sophomore year. His senior year he had 777 hours of community service time spent in athletic medicine cl***. Darrell tied for state champion that year, and was the top senior. Darrell also was a staff person at various weekend camps for trail of the eagle, and fall camporee, teaching scout skills, and merit badges. This Last June through September he went to fight Wildfires.
This is Darrell Lambert, 19 year old Eagle Scout who is considered by the Boy Scouts of America, not to be a good citizen because he is an atheist.
Steven Cozza, Eagle Scout "I think it is horrible the Boy Scouts of America would kick out Darrell Lambert. He is more of an Eagle Scout then many Eagle Scouts who believe in god. Believing in god is not a measure of the quality of person. In fact the two murders of Matthew Shepard was an Eagle scout and a Mormon. The character of a person is seen by how a person lives his life. Apparently Mr. Farmer, Mr. Schmidt, and Mr. Estes, lack the strength of character that Darrell has if they don't stand by him as the person they truly know he is. Sometimes rules that people follow are wrong. It would take the character of an Eagle Scout like Darrell Lambert to point that out. When will the Boy Scouts of America ever learn that their policy of discrimination is a violation of their own scout oath and law and hurts kids? Businesses, individuals, and United Ways should stop funding an organization that discriminates against nontheists, gays, and girls." Other Contacts: Darrell Lambert, Eagle Scout Chief Seattle Council PO Box 440408, Seattle, WA 98114-4408, Phone (206) 725-5200, FAX (206)723-4330 Brad Farmer, Council Scout Executive Glen Schmidt, District Committee Chair Toby Estes, District Scout Executive "All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few." -- Marie Henri Beyle (Stendhal)
navil ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:23:02 -0600, Carol Lee Smith He was kicked out for the wrong reason. Whether he is a good citizen makes no difference for purposes of qualifying for membership in BSA; I suspect many otherwise excellent citizens do not qualify. If he doesn't have a "duty to God" he is a cheater if he is in BSA, and he knows he cheats. If he repeats the Oath he is lying.That's why he is not worthy to be in BSA.
That his Board accepted a cheater and probable liar only shows the unworthiness of the Board to serve in the capacity.
I eliminated the cross-posting.
Hugh
pan_paniscus1 ...@yahoo.com (Chimp)
Let's say I agree with you, and that he doesn't belong in scouting because he was uttering the oath falsely.
Can we also examine the position of Glen Schmidt, Dist. Comm. Chair, being the one who threw this boy out of scouting? First, can we remind ourselves of these parts of the scout law: LOYAL A Scout is true to his ... nation.
FRIENDLY He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
REVERENT He respects the beliefs of others.
Now, ***uming that Glen Schmidt has been quoted correctly (and I can understand that he might not have been given that the words "and that" appear not to be part of the quote) he supposedly said: "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." Can you comment on whether, in your opinion, Dist. Comm. Chair Schmidt deserves censure for these remarks?
I'd also be interested to know whether the answer would be different if he'd been quoted as saying: "Anybody who is Jew isn't a good citizen" and that "if a Jew found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground".
Chimp
navil ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
I hope this is a partial answer anyhow.
I have changed my mind to some degree. I think it's okay for BSA to define the type of member it looks for. I think we are stupid if we continue to harp on whether a person is a good citizen - that can be rebutted as you have.
We could say that certain character doesn't represent the type citizen we wish to serve - a position with which people can disagree but cannot rebut.
In the current atmosphere I doubt that BSA can continue to eat the cake and have it, too. With the backing of various churches I think the BSA can continue to be as powerful a force as it has in the past.
But I don't think we can make official statements which can be picked apart.
To make it even clearer, you may be a much better citizen than I ever can be, but I don't want to be in BSA if it finds atheism acceptable.
If BSA were organized as you would prescribe, would I have been a member? I don't know but I'll bet it would be a good organization.
I've avoided answering for four paragraphs. I suppose Schmidt had a right to believe as he wished. While he could get away with expressing his private opinion, he was responding to an official situation and must make a different response. We all, not just Schmidt, need to be coached in making official responses. Schmidt should have said something like, "The candidate's beliefs, as an atheist, do not coincide with what I understand is required for membership in BSA." Any elaboration of the statement should be in the same vein. I think my statement is censure.
I doubt that Schmidt had the authority to boot anyone out of BSA as he indicated he did. He red-necked at the wrong time and place in my view. As I understand the program that part deserves censure. You can't say "BOOM" if you aren't John Madden. 8-) However, official censure is done in private.
Ya gots ta be a offishul rooster if yer gonna strut lak a offishal rooster.
Did you REALLY expect a yes or no answer? 8-) Hugh
"Bill Nelson" bnelso...@nospam.hotmail.com
"Carol Lee Smith" <hu...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message ...
Carol, Scoutmasters must subscribe to the Scout Oath which includes Duty to God.
Also to be a Scoutmaster you must sign a document that states you subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principles (see the rec.scouting.issues FAQ for a copy of what they sign). If this particular Scoutmaster decided he was going to purger himself when he registered as a Scoutmaster and every time he recited the Scout Oath and then got caught doing it, why are you objecting to the organization that has Duty to God as one of its fundamental principles from removing him as a Scoutmaster. It would seem to me that if you really wanted to teach good citizenship, you would be telling this person to stop pergering himself, that is not an act of good citizenship.
To make Eagle he had to p*** a Scout Spirit requirement in Tenderfoot, Second Cl***, First Cl***, Star, Life and Eagle. In each instance he had to show to his Scoutmaster that he lived the Scout Oath in his daily life. I don't know how long he was pergering himself in this, but it could very well have been a long time.
take care, bill
"Bill Nelson" bnelso...@nospam.hotmail.com
Mr Schmidt seems to be a jerk...just my humble opinion.
bill
Brian Westley west...@visi.com
Hey Bill, how come the gay scouts you know can lie to stay in the BSA, but not atheists?
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Merlyn LeRoy
pan_paniscus1 ...@yahoo.com (Chimp)
If I were to run such an organization then I'd hope that you'd be willing to participate. I expect you'd be an ***et in most roles (with a couple of exceptions, such as mentoring a 14-yr-old who finds himself experiencing sexual attraction to his own sex, something he neither expected nor asked for).
Well yes, I did. Of all the BSA defenders on this newsgroup you are the most likely to adopt a coherent position and to give an honest and straight answer to a question (sometimes after a little prodding). I also think I got a straight answer in this case, at least it was clear enough for me.
Chimp
pan_paniscus1 ...@yahoo.com (Chimp)
Yes, but Bill, you're omitting the fact that BSA does not, as you have so often pointed out, define "God" or "duty to God", but leaves that to the scout. Thus you cannot conclude that he was perjuring himself.
All he stated, according to the article, is that he was an atheist, and that he didn't believe in God. You can't go from there to concluding that he was falsely promising to undertake a "duty to God" (whatever that means) unless you have a definition of "God" or "duty to God".
Where, in the rules applying to boy members, does it state that atheism is incompatible with doing ones "duty to God", or that belief in God is required for doing ones "duty to God"? And if there is no such statement then, under the rules, scoutmasters have no option but to accept the word of any scout who utters the promise, regardless of how that scout interprets the phrase. Thus, according to the interpretations that _you_ have been defending, you cannot conclude that he ever perjured himself.
Chimp
"Happy Wanderer" judgedr...@ij.net
But Carol doesn't think they should be allowed to do that!
navil ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
I hope you know how much I appreciate that comment. I'd like to think I could help the 14-yr-old. If he's searching instead of pushing, I'd like to point him in the right direction to find answers. I owe him that.
I subscribe to the Rolls Royce theory - if the only noise is made by the clock, we need to work on the clock.
If one person believes that, I have achieved some success. That acknowledgement matters a lot more than whether you agree with me - or I with you.
It might also be important to note that I don't defend everything about BSA and do not hesitate to so state.
Hugh
navil ...@adelphia.net (J. Hugh Sullivan)
Is that what's colloquially called "painting oneself in a corner"?
I finally gave up and decided I liked painted shoe soles.
Hugh
Brian Westley west...@visi.com
Where did she say that?
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Merlyn LeRoy
m ...@jaceeprint.demon.co.uk (marc)
Rolls-Royce clocks don't tick. How many of your other analogies are as inaccurate?
--
Marc T Shirts, Sweatshirts, polo shirts, banners, signs,decals, stickers etc for clubs and ***ociations of all types http://www.jaceeprint.demon.co.uk/
Carol Lee Smith hu...@csd.uwm.edu
I didn't.
He is making that up.
Carol Lee Smith hu...@csd.uwm.edu
Should the BSA allow its representatives to say things like this?
A posting from "Scouting For All," a national organization seeking to make the BSA more inclusive by admitting homosexuals and nonbelievers, said that Lambert's Atheism was discussed at an October 12 training session for Scout Masters. The District Chairman, Glen Schmidt, was reported as having said: "I asked scouts during the training if they believe in god and if they don't I boot them out. In order for scouts to become good citizens they must believe in god." "Anyone that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen." He delivered a homily stating that if an Atheist happened to find a wallet laying on the ground, they would "pick it up (and) plunder the money." Another scout leader identified as Dave Jones then reportedly told Lambert's mother, "If you have any other boys in the scouts that don't believe in god they need to be kicked out..." Should the BSA allow its representatives to say things like this? Scott Cozza, the president of the Scouting For All group which seeks to bring tolerance into the ranks of the BSA said, "It is ironic that the BSA core value of respecting diversity is not practiced within the organization. And it's a shame that the BSA National Office is turning a deaf ear to its members." Cozza's group is also condemning the threats to dismiss Darrel Lambert.
"I think it's horrible that the Boy Scouts of America would kick out Lambert. He is more of an Eagle Scout than many Eagle Scouts who believe in god. believing in god is not a measure of the quality of a person." Cozza noted that the two murderers of Matthew Shepard, a gay youth, were an Eagle Scout and Mormon.
"The character of a person is seen by how a person lives his life," said Cozza. "When will the Boy Scouts of America ever learn that their policy of discrimination is a violation of their own scout oath and law, and hurts kids?"
mvanh ...@cs.indiana.edu (Marc VanHeyningen)
I hope this means we can dispense forever with some of the ridiculous notions we've seen in previous discussions, such as "atheists are allowed in the BSA as long as they don't get all uppity and try to advance a personal agenda" or "the policies and practices of BSA don't insult atheists."
"Bill Nelson" bnelso...@nospam.hotmail.com
Chimp, if I remember correctly you are not a BSA Scouter, so you may not know this, but your argument doesn't matter: He has stated he does not believe in duty to God nor subscribe to the DRP. He was purgering himself when he recited the oath and presented himself as someone who lived by the Scout Oath and Law. He purgered himself when he signed the adult application that plainly states that the undersigned subscribes to the DRP.
(the DRP is in the rec.scouting.issues FAQ for those who need a reference.) take care, bill
Brian Westley west...@visi.com
Is this anything like BSA councils that sign nondiscrimination agreements?
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Merlyn LeRoy
"Bill Nelson" bnelso...@nospam.hotmail.com
But lying is? He lied, and he lied repeatedly.
He has stated he does not believe in duty to God nor subscribe to the DRP.
He was perjuring himself when he recited the oath and presented himself as someone who lived by the Scout Oath and Law. He perjured himself when he signed the adult application that plainly states that the undersigned subscribes to the DRP. (the DRP is in the rec.scouting.issues FAQ for those who need a reference.) take care, bill
"Bill Nelson" bnelso...@nospam.hotmail.com
Atheists are welcome as long as they subscribe to the DRP and abide by the Scout Oath. A lot of people who do not believe in a personal God, but do believe in a leading and ruling power in the universe call themselves atheists. The Scout Executive of his council said if he believed in 'mother nature' that would be fine. I know a lot of people who believe in 'mother nature' as the leading and ruling power in the universe who call themselves atheists. It doesn't matter that he calls himself an atheist, what matters is if he can abide by a duty to God. He doesn't have to convince you or I of the logic of that, he just needs to say he does. Don't be intolerant bill
Brian Westley west...@visi.com
Is this anything like BSA councils that sign nondiscrimination agreements?
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Merlyn LeRoy
Brian Westley west...@visi.com
Jews are welcome as long as they believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.
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Merlyn LeRoy
mvanh ...@cs.indiana.edu (Marc VanHeyningen)
...which are incompatible with atheism.
I don't think I've ever met one.
If they believe in 'mother nature' as a metaphor for the vitality and sustainability of the universe, then this is certainly possible but I'm not sure it would meet the requirements that Mr Farmer is quoting.
If they believe in 'mother nature' as the natural universe, they're not atheists but pantheists.
If they believe in 'mother nature' as a something which is not part of the natural universe, but rules and leads it, then they're not atheists but theists.
Intolerant? I'm not the one going around saying that other people's religious beliefs make them poor role models, or bad citizens, or disinclined to return lost wallets. I'm not the one giving people ultimatums to change their religious beliefs within a week or face consequences.
"WD-40" judgedr...@ij.net
Right, is that why every time the BSA is mentioned you have a conniption fit about them?
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